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How about addressing the point, rather than referring to something else? He's saying that paying more for having 2 wounds isn't an automatic benefit, and you mocked him for it. What makes you say that having 2 wounds is always a benefit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The number I quoted wasn't meant to be specific, but rather a general illustration of the point. Sorry for any confusion in that regard.

As for the cost of the units, that's not the point: Martel and Slayer-Fan said that paying more for a second wound isn't automatically worth it, and can be a liability. Talking about the overall cost of the unit (which is variable based on your weapon choices) rather than the base cost of the models is moving the goalposts.

My point stands. Also more wounds is never a liability.

I can take 14 tactical marines for the cost of 10 intercessors. If the enemy has brought the guns to land 10 hits with overcharged plasma, would 10 tactical marines not be better? We're not talking about offensive capability, weapon choices, etc etc.

Would you rather soak up 10 shots of overcharged plasma with 10 intercessors, or 14 tactical marines?

 Primark G wrote:
He has said both tactical Marines and Intercessors are garbage units so why does it matter?

The ratio in points for five Intercessors versus five tactical Marines (both including a sergeant) is 1.4... which is less than the number you spouted. The thing you don't mention is that to be of any use the tactical Marines must take a costed ranged weapon to be of any real value which then immediately shifts the ratio back in favor of Intercessors and is a much more practical measure of worth.

Tactical Marines ARE garbage and Intercessors are mediocre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
My point stands. Also more wounds is never a liability.

Here. Lemme break this down word for word so you can understand super clearly.

More. Wounds. Are. A. Liability. If. The. Extra. Wound. Is. Too. Expensive. Per. Point. For. The. Models.

That’s mathammer you came up with a completely random situation you crafted to defend your fragile position.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
That’s mathammer you came up with a completely random situation you crafted to defend your fragile position.

Are you so daft you can't understand that an extra wound can't be too expensive at price?

Here let me give a ridiculous example. Would you take Tactical Marines if they have a second wound except they now cost 35 points a model?

Lol how much is one Intercessor?

Of course there are units that just don’t cut it but that is their rules... sure multi wound makes them costs more points but you should know not to field them... terminators are a good example.

 Primark G wrote:
Lol how much is one Intercessor?

Of course there are units that just don’t cut it but that is their rules... sure multi wound makes them costs more points but you should know not to field them... terminators are a good example.

You answered the question and chose not to at the same time.

Part of why Terminators are bad is they either always paid too much for that save OR, currently, that save and the extra wound on top. This is the most competitive they've been in years too and they're still bad!
So sometimes multiple wounds IS a bad thing, because the worth isn't always reflected in the unit cost

This thread is getting a little too heated - rule #1 on Dakka is "Be polite", and these same points can be discussed without demeaning other posters. So, let's try to do that, please...

Thanks all!

There's too much heat in this thread from a handful of posters. As a reminder:
1. Rule #1 - Be Polite
2. Don't be condescending and flippant towards other posters. It doesn't foster debate, just a tendency to be dismissed because you're not expressing yourself respectfully.
3. Making declarations without backing them up is not a way to win a debate

Warnings have been handed out privately as warranted.

I've seen some really good discussion in this thread; please don't derail it.

-=Edit=- Darnit, RiTides ninja'd me. At least we're on-message.

Whoops, sorry Lorek

Hah. I do believe that is the first time I have seen a double Mod warning post!

Dakka Dakka requires an infantry unit to hit like a titan be as survivable as custodes and have the cost of guard for it to be worthwhile taking

Being as cost effective as a guardsmen would be a good start.

Martel732 wrote:
Being as cost effective as a guardsmen would be a good start.

well guard are just too cost effective IMHO. every discussion of tactics for the Imperium ALWAYS turns into "...... or take guard which is cheaper" this to me signifies a problem with guardsmen.

But the point isn't intercessors who hit like a limp noodle no one would ever waste resources shooting them.

The problem is the 2 wound hellblaster, interceptors and aggressors. Those things attract 30-48" range, ap-2, s5, 2d weapons like it is going out of style (dark reapers) and are just too efficient of a target for so many weapons in the game it makes them dangerous to bring without some way of not reliably getting shot to bits.

Killing a unit of intercessors for 90 points isn't really worth it, those hellblasters for 165 though, that is worth the 2-300 points of shooting it will take to get rid of them.

That extra wound for those units just isn't enough to make them "tough" given the weapons coming at them. If you are going to run glass cannons better focus on that cannon and that's where interceptors (DA) work.

This why hellblasters end up feeling overpriced. Units of 5 die easy and are so expensive that running more than 2-3 units doesn't leave enough points for all the other things you need to make them work.

In an ideal world they'd have 3 wounds or t6 or 5+fnp or something that hits one of the points where it seems things require some thought to kill.

It's why the 3+2 dev squad seems to work so well. Those first 3 wounds require enough shooting at significant range that it's harder to earn your points back shooting at a unit because you are over-shooting that unit. You get twice your value shooting primaris as tacs with the weapons that fall in the common band of 30-48", s5+, 2d+.

If intercessors were rapid fire 2 then we'd have something. Their offensive threat isn't enough for an enemy to worry about. If they could take 2-3 grenade launchers or one plasma gun per squad they could be something.

Board control maters and 2w models just suck at that unless they are criminally undercosted. Maybe mixed squads will be a thing one day but until intercessors/reavers get some offensive punch and hellblasters/agressors get a way to be survivable (transports/deepstrike) I don't see them as top tier competitive units.

I suspect hellblasters might become a much more popular unit for Imperial soup if Necrons become more powerful, Hellblasters seem one of the better choices in the Imperial arsenal to take out vehicles with quantium sheilding.

Maybe all this 2 damage v. 2W stuff is an argument for Iron Hands chapter tactics. as you save each wound individually (right?) you've a ~30% chance of not losing a model from a 2 damage hit. Yes, this is grasping at straws..

(Also, I find it hard to get enthusiastic about the IH's lore but, hey, tactics forum.)

momerathe wrote:
Maybe all this 2 damage v. 2W stuff is an argument for Iron Hands chapter tactics. as you save each wound individually (right?) you've a ~30% chance of not losing a model from a 2 damage hit. Yes, this is grasping at straws..

(Also, I find it hard to get enthusiastic about the IH's lore but, hey, tactics forum.)

It's not as bad as people dismissed, but it still isn't the best one. Raven guard is generally better.

RG also gets the cheap fully kitted chapter master without burning CC on him.

Quantum shielding is one corner case for hellblasters possibly being decent but which plasma devs do not handle significantly worse if worse at all.

Iron hands and ravenguard, yes.

I sometimes feel like I must be using a different army to people on this site. It's weird.

In my version of the army, when people smite my intercessors, half as many of them die as if they only had one wound. The same thing happens when they fire brainleech devourers at them.

I've also sometimes seen opponents using a model that had neither a plasma gun, or a reaper launcher. Indeed quite often I've seen people try and beat my guys up in close combat, with their fists.

So here's the thing about Intercessors. They are for getting in the way - indeed that's basically what their name means in latin. They are exceptionally good at it.

Yes, people can fire powerful weapons at them, and kill them off. If so, they weren't firing at one of your actually valuable units. This is good. If someone drops in a scion command squad and fires at intercessors in cover, 2.37 of them will die on average (or slightly more if rerolling 1s). That's a little over half the value of the scions.

Hellblasters need to either be ravenguard or to have a repulsor to live in. I run two repulsors and have a lot of success with them.

There's been a load of complaining about the repulsor because it's not a rhino. This ignores the fact that it's an excellent tank. It's got seriously massive firepower, a good transport capacity, it's very tough and it can fly, so it can't easily be shut down. My list is built around two of them and I may well add a third.

There's no getting around the fact that dark reapers are broken. Everyone accepts that, and hopefully GW will do something about it in the FAQs that are due out any minute. They are borderline game-breaking, but hopefully not for too much longer.

Mandragola wrote:
Iron hands and ravenguard, yes.

I sometimes feel like I must be using a different army to people on this site. It's weird.

In my version of the army, when people smite my intercessors, half as many of them die as if they only had one wound. The same thing happens when they fire brainleech devourers at them.

I've also sometimes seen opponents using a model that had neither a plasma gun, or a reaper launcher. Indeed quite often I've seen people try and beat my guys up in close combat, with their fists.

So here's the thing about Intercessors. They are for getting in the way - indeed that's basically what their name means in latin. They are exceptionally good at it.

Yes, people can fire powerful weapons at them, and kill them off. If so, they weren't firing at one of your actually valuable units. This is good. If someone drops in a scion command squad and fires at intercessors in cover, 2.37 of them will die on average (or slightly more if rerolling 1s). That's a little over half the value of the scions.

Hellblasters need to either be ravenguard or to have a repulsor to live in. I run two repulsors and have a lot of success with them.

There's been a load of complaining about the repulsor because it's not a rhino. This ignores the fact that it's an excellent tank. It's got seriously massive firepower, a good transport capacity, it's very tough and it can fly, so it can't easily be shut down. My list is built around two of them and I may well add a third.

There's no getting around the fact that dark reapers are broken. Everyone accepts that, and hopefully GW will do something about it in the FAQs that are due out any minute. They are borderline game-breaking, but hopefully not for too much longer.

Intercessors are a bad choice over all because they do not give what scouts do to for space marines. None of the space marine troop choices are good at killing things, as opposed to, say, eldar guardians. Nor are they good at blocking, like guardsmen (which ALSO kill better than space marine troops). Scouts, however, are fantastic at board control. And that's veyr important for high level play.

Intercessors though just.... lack anything going for them.

Hellblasters aren't good because repulsors aren't good, as far as I can see. As soon as Primaris get a decent transport option, hellblasters will be a great unit.

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect hellblasters might become a much more popular unit for Imperial soup if Necrons become more powerful, Hellblasters seem one of the better choices in the Imperial arsenal to take out vehicles with quantium sheilding.

Stalkers and autocannons

grouchoben wrote:
Hellblasters aren't good because repulsors aren't good, as far as I can see. As soon as Primaris get a decent transport option, hellblasters will be a great unit.

THey'll be much better, yes

Mandragola wrote:
Iron hands and ravenguard, yes.

I sometimes feel like I must be using a different army to people on this site. It's weird.

In my version of the army, when people smite my intercessors, half as many of them die as if they only had one wound. The same thing happens when they fire brainleech devourers at them.

I've also sometimes seen opponents using a model that had neither a plasma gun, or a reaper launcher. Indeed quite often I've seen people try and beat my guys up in close combat, with their fists.

So here's the thing about Intercessors. They are for getting in the way - indeed that's basically what their name means in latin. They are exceptionally good at it.

Yes, people can fire powerful weapons at them, and kill them off. If so, they weren't firing at one of your actually valuable units. This is good. If someone drops in a scion command squad and fires at intercessors in cover, 2.37 of them will die on average (or slightly more if rerolling 1s). That's a little over half the value of the scions.

Hellblasters need to either be ravenguard or to have a repulsor to live in. I run two repulsors and have a lot of success with them.

There's been a load of complaining about the repulsor because it's not a rhino. This ignores the fact that it's an excellent tank. It's got seriously massive firepower, a good transport capacity, it's very tough and it can fly, so it can't easily be shut down. My list is built around two of them and I may well add a third.

There's no getting around the fact that dark reapers are broken. Everyone accepts that, and hopefully GW will do something about it in the FAQs that are due out any minute. They are borderline game-breaking, but hopefully not for too much longer.

Repulsor needs to be a lot cheaper. A LOT.

Yeah honestly The repulsor so too damn expensive.

mostly because its over loaded with guns.

(and pays out the butt for fly)

I think the Repulsor is really good at what it does but yeah it is a lot of points unfortunately.

grouchoben wrote:
Hellblasters aren't good because repulsors aren't good, as far as I can see. As soon as Primaris get a decent transport option, hellblasters will be a great unit.

Genuine question to all the people saying repulsors are no good: have you ever used them?

I’ve used them many times, to great effect. I’d like to know what the difference is between my experience and yours.

Mandragola wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
Hellblasters aren't good because repulsors aren't good, as far as I can see. As soon as Primaris get a decent transport option, hellblasters will be a great unit.

Genuine question to all the people saying repulsors are no good: have you ever used them?

I’ve used them many times, to great effect. I’d like to know what the difference is between my experience and yours.

As a model its fine. its a dakka boat with transport capability

the people that dont think they are good only think so because 1) it only fits primarus (which is honestly marketing bs) 2) they are flippin expensive points wise (not that it is unwarranted considering it almost has as much firepower as a landraider and cant get locked into combat)

3) they are not razorbacks which are cheaper and more effecent blahblahblah.

But i dont disagree. its a lot of eggs in a single still easy to kill basket. but i do use them and they do put in work. it just at the price you are not taking much else of anything.

not that walking hellblasters have been much of a problem for me ether.