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jcd386 wrote:
Yeah that all makes sense. I think maybe everyone was coming across as too defeatist, so it seemed to me like you were moving too far in the other direction.

The toughness thing is interesting if you do the math. Going from T3 to T4 increases damage as follows:

S3: T4 takes 33% less damage than T3 (six hits goes from being 3 wounds to 2)
S4: T4 takes 25% less damage (from 4 to 3)
S5: doesn't change
S6/7: T4 takes 20% less damage (5 to 4)
S8+: doesn't change

To me this typically isn't worth the price we pay for it.

Saves are similarly strange, where the better your safe, the more AP values increases your damage. AP 1 increases damage to 2+ by 100%, 3+ by 50%, 4+ 33%, 5+ 25%, and 6+ by 20%.

To me these things make it clear that the marine profile is currently overcosted.

All of this is completely 100% true. This is where GW has never done the "basic math" and run simulations like a video game company would. What you are basically saying is the equivalent of a DPS (damage per second) metric in tabletop. DPS is not the end-all-be all by any means as range, counters, build orders, micro, all have impact of course. However, it's a starting point for did you get the math in the right place.

In essence, it kind of shows the typical schizophrenic brain of GW. One one side they want to streamline the toughness chart and implement armor save modifications. However, you have to execute and re-design the units correctly with that in mind. Unfortunately, I think we all grasp that both the BOLTER and T4/3+ isn't worth much in this edition. It's a race to the bottom with horde-level troops. Maybe it's just human bias where since Marine is the first codex, too much of the old 3rd-7th mindset was there and the writers/rules people didn't factor that into the codex. In essence, they are thinking about marines like the old ways while having a new ruleset. This is compounded I suspect without doing the DPS style simulation testing above.

Yeah GW definitely doesn’t do the sums to work out the efficiency of weapons against targets. The result is that marines with bolt guns are significantly weaker than they should be for their cost.

One odd thing is that cover means way more to marines, with their 3+ saves, than models with less armour on. You take half as much damage from ap0, and even have an ok chance to save against lascannons, battlecannons and the like. The availability of cover makes a huge difference to marines.

To me, the main problem is about damage output. Bolt guns at 13ppm do negligible damage. It sucks to compare tactical marines to units that cost the same or less, but whose guns are far more powerful and who are also harder to shoot dead. This is why you get marine armies with no marines, and chaos marine armies with no chaos marines.

My solution has been to put my tactical marines in boxes and make a new (mostly) Primaris army. Primaris marines function like marines always should have. They are tougher and meaner than other people’s troops. They can beat things up in combat and even their guns are somewhat effective. If I put a unit of intercessors in cover on an objective they’ll almost always still be there at the end of the game, and will have killed a few things. At a tournament this weekend I had my hellblasters and intercessors charge stuff like plaguebearers and ork boyz mobs, because they actually throw out a lot of attacks and cause things to die. Doing that with tactical marines or devastators would stand no chance of success.

None of that is any help for people with normal-sized marines. I’m not sure what to say about that to be honest. It seems to me that GW doesn’t really care to support rules for old models.

Because i love tinkering around in Excel:

If you compare the average damage output against the main 6 toughness values (T3 to T8), of a 4 point guardsmen with a lasgun to a marine with a bolter, and ignore their differences in durability, a marine would only be worth about 7.5 points.

If you compare the average durability per point per shot from a verity of anti infantry guns (I used lasguns, bolters, heavy bolters, assault cannons, plasma, and OC plasma, this is probably imperfect but seems at least indicative of what we're looking at here), Marines are worth about 10.3 points.

So the corrected value to make Marines as good as guard would be somewhere in the middle, around 9 points. This is assuming that the offensive ability and defensive ability of a unit averaged together equals their overall value, which might not be correct, but seems reasonable to me.

Conversely, if you adjust the guard values to match values of the 13 point Marine, they are worth about 7 points offensively and 5.1 defensively, which averages to about 6 points.

You could also adjust them both to get them closer. 5 point guard and 11 point Marines would also be very similar in a points to effectiveness comparison.

So at the end of the day, despite my napkin math being likely imperfect, it seems to me like Marines are either 23% overcosted, or guardsmen are 50% undercosted.

jcd386 wrote:
Because i love tinkering around in Excel:

If you compare the average damage output against the main 6 toughness values (T3 to T8), of a 4 point guardsmen with a lasgun to a marine with a bolter, and ignore their differences in durability, a marine would only be worth about 7.5 points.

If you compare the average durability per point per shot from a verity of anti infantry guns (I used lasguns, bolters, heavy bolters, assault cannons, plasma, and OC plasma, this is probably imperfect but seems at least indicative of what we're looking at here), Marines are worth about 10.3 points.

So the corrected value to make Marines as good as guard would be somewhere in the middle, around 9 points. This is assuming that the offensive ability and defensive ability of a unit averaged together equals their overall value, which might not be correct, but seems reasonable to me.

Conversely, if you adjust the guard values to match values of the 13 point Marine, they are worth about 7 points offensively and 5.1 defensively, which averages to about 6 points.

You could also adjust them both to get them closer. 5 point guard and 11 point Marines would also be very similar in a points to effectiveness comparison.

So at the end of the day, despite my napkin math being likely imperfect, it seems to me like Marines are either 23% overcosted, or guardsmen are 50% undercosted.

I suppose that 23% premium is meant to encompass ATSKNF and Combat Squading? Seems expensive either way.

Yeah it's possible, but it's not like guard units don't also have special rules like orders and whatnot so I didn't put much weight into things like that.

I laugh at the notion of Combat Sqauds meaning anything. They could literally lose the rule with no point decrease and nobody would be sad.

When is the last time anyone actually used combat squads? Anyone? I have played Marines since 5th and i honestly don't think I've ever used it.

Insectum uses it to crush more weapons into drop pods.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I laugh at the notion of Combat Sqauds meaning anything. They could literally lose the rule with no point decrease and nobody would be sad.

Has anyone ever used it? It turns one squad into 2 deployments means you don't get a second sargernt and you have less units to fill out detachments? It's totally useless in 8th edition. Heck if a primaris marine is only worth 18 points with 6 inchs of extra range -1ap and a second attack and a second wound, why are standard marine still paying the full codex 13 points per model. Atleast at 12 ppm they wouldn't be auto loosing you the game.

jcd386 wrote:
Because i love tinkering around in Excel:

If you compare the average damage output against the main 6 toughness values (T3 to T8), of a 4 point guardsmen with a lasgun to a marine with a bolter, and ignore their differences in durability, a marine would only be worth about 7.5 points.

If you compare the average durability per point per shot from a verity of anti infantry guns (I used lasguns, bolters, heavy bolters, assault cannons, plasma, and OC plasma, this is probably imperfect but seems at least indicative of what we're looking at here), Marines are worth about 10.3 points.

So the corrected value to make Marines as good as guard would be somewhere in the middle, around 9 points. This is assuming that the offensive ability and defensive ability of a unit averaged together equals their overall value, which might not be correct, but seems reasonable to me.

Conversely, if you adjust the guard values to match values of the 13 point Marine, they are worth about 7 points offensively and 5.1 defensively, which averages to about 6 points.

You could also adjust them both to get them closer. 5 point guard and 11 point Marines would also be very similar in a points to effectiveness comparison.

So at the end of the day, despite my napkin math being likely imperfect, it seems to me like Marines are either 23% overcosted, or guardsmen are 50% undercosted.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after a bit of spreadsheetery

points lost per hit
points per wound

One thing to note is just how tanky intercessors are to S3/S4 shooting, even compared to blob guard.

Id have to run the numbers, but I would guess that 18 points is about right for intercessors. They went down from 20 in chapter approved, so it makes sense. I still think they fill an odd role for Marines, and are still very flimsy vs D2, but I think that's more an issue with D2 weapons than it is with intercessors.

Ice_can wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I laugh at the notion of Combat Sqauds meaning anything. They could literally lose the rule with no point decrease and nobody would be sad.

Has anyone ever used it? It turns one squad into 2 deployments means you don't get a second sargernt and you have less units to fill out detachments? It's totally useless in 8th edition. Heck if a primaris marine is only worth 18 points with 6 inchs of extra range -1ap and a second attack and a second wound, why are standard marine still paying the full codex 13 points per model. Atleast at 12 ppm they wouldn't be auto loosing you the game.

I managed ONE use in 6th with Carcharodons Chapter Tactics at the time and that was it. Otherwise there was honestly no point to the rule.


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jcd386 wrote:
Id have to run the numbers, but I would guess that 18 points is about right for intercessors. They went down from 20 in chapter approved, so it makes sense. I still think they fill an odd role for Marines, and are still very flimsy vs D2, but I think that's more an issue with D2 weapons than it is with intercessors.

That's more an issue with Plasma, though it doesn't fix how bad Melta and Flamers and Grav Guns are.

Rather than just making Marines cheaper they need to give Bolt weapons something and differentiate the choices a lot more.

So people don't think Wisdom of the Ancients and Sons of Guilliman are good strategems?

 Primark G wrote:
So people don't think Wisdom of the Ancients and Sons of Guilliman are good strategems?

No.

Your Captains are already ran in enough numbers that both Strategems are redundant and honestly fill no purpose.

I don't think those strategems are useless or anything, but they're pretty situational. As Slayer mentions, you're pretty likely to have a captain's aura in range, plus the buff only lasts one round, not even the whole turn. Maybe if it provided a Chapter Master aura instead, or at least lasted in both the shooting and fight phases.

The sternguard strategem is pretty cool, except that it only works on their special issue bolters. If it applied to the unit regardless of their loadout, it would be great imo. Auspex Scan is clutch in the right circumstances, but 2 CP is pricey for an army that's not going to be hitting more than 8-9 CP total without soup. Linebreaker and Killshot both strike me as good, except that they require 3 tanks to function; if you go second, you won't get them off. Linebreaker is also really only going to be effective against certain builds too, and Vindicators are underwhelming to begin with.

Wisdom of the ancients is bad because dreads (outside of dakka leviathans) are bad. It is also very situational because usually those dreads are part of a gunline and properly bubble wrapping with our crap bubble wrapping options rewards small castles which should all be in a captian+lt bubble at least.

I've tried to run separate castles and it gets really hard to keep them screened. If they are not screened they get tar-pitted (unless they are ultras but then you have -1 for falling back and a -1 for moving so hitting on a 5+ and it only gets worse from there or going from 66% to 33% or worse).

I've played with the idea of 3x ven dreads supported by a LT and this strat but if I'm running that competitive then soup does it so much better. I don't like close combat + shooting dreds (or any dual use unit) because for half the game you are giving up whatever points you are paying for close combat or shooting. Dreads don't really have the volume of attacks to prevent them from getting tar pitted (4 attacks, 3 will hit, 2 will end up wounding doesn't get you out of combat fast enough or inflict enough damage)

Sons of Gman is only available to a small subsection of vanilla marines and if you are running ultras you are doing yourself a disservice by being outside of Gman's re-roll wounds bubble so it is again highly situational (maybe deepstriking inceptors but that is very situational)

Both pale in comparison to any of the good strats out there making them mediocre at best (which for the marine codex means they are the best we have).

They don't hold a candle to any of the deepstriking, fight twice, shoot twice, -1 to hit, +1 to save, no overwatch, re-deploy, advance and then shoot, advance and then charge, double advance, counter charge, move out of sequence, +1 damage, no strats for you, +d3 cp, whatever the nid no psychics for you on is, -1 ap, +1 invlun, jump-shoot-jump, whatever broken necron crap is out there or any of the "good" stratagems that other armies have plenty of.

Not all dreads are bad. Deredeos, contemptors and venerable dreads all have their uses.

Sons of Guilliman is really good on plasma inceptors.

SftS is of course amazing.

There are some weak stratagems too. I wish bolter drill did more, but it really doesn't. It's only meaningful effect is to make firing my aggressors take even longer to resolve.

jcd386 wrote:
Id have to run the numbers, but I would guess that 18 points is about right for intercessors. They went down from 20 in chapter approved, so it makes sense. I still think they fill an odd role for Marines, and are still very flimsy vs D2, but I think that's more an issue with D2 weapons than it is with intercessors.

They are 15 pts tops in the 8th ed environment. Plasma scions alone knock them down from 18.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
So people don't think Wisdom of the Ancients and Sons of Guilliman are good strategems?

I don't think so. Compare to what Chaos and Eldar throw around and get back to me.

Mandragola wrote:
Not all dreads are bad. Deredeos, contemptors and venerable dreads all have their uses.

Sons of Guilliman is really good on plasma inceptors.

SftS is of course amazing.

There are some weak stratagems too. I wish bolter drill did more, but it really doesn't. It's only meaningful effect is to make firing my aggressors take even longer to resolve.

You could also just bring a Jump Pack Captain instead if you wanted mobile plasma, as otherwise Hellblasters and Devastators exist. That's part of the issue here. It's a super redundant effect. Imagine if Cadian Guard had a strategem just to reroll 1's to hit. It doesn't make sense because they're basically already getting the benefit. Then there's the matter that Tactical Marines and Intercessors put out so little damage why would you want to bother using such a strategem on them.

The only good Strategems are Auspex, Cluster Mines, Hellfire Shells, Flakk Missiles, and Tremor Shells for the generic stuff. Killshot and Masterful Marksmanship are too limited in nature, and surprisingly the Relic one is limited too, because the whole army, compared to any other codex so far, is more reliant on Special Characters overall. Strike From The Shadows and Abhor The Witch are the only good Chapter specific ones in the codex.

I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.

Mandragola wrote:
I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.

It basically is true, because primaris firepower SUCKS on a per point basis. Primaris can't knock out the D2 weapons, and they get hammered for 5-6 turns and get tabled. Hellblasters do not cut it vs autocannons and the like with 48" range. Too many cheap D2 weapons. They have enough to shoot your crappy Repulsor and your primaris dudes. They don't need to shoot the intercessors, because intercessors are very ignorable for 3 turns. They need a drop pod.

Bananathug: Yes, all of that, spot on. I just never really use SM strats much, playing as I do a Primaris army. Auspex is top ranking for me, along with Duty In Death and of course SftS, (praise be to that strat!). That's it. When I play Thousand Sons or Guard I feel spoiled with all the candycoated options I have at my disposal. +1 to save? 5+ on overwatch? reroll all hits and wounds? fight again? +1 to wound? Transform a half-dead character into a furious ball of tentacles? Fire twice with my dread? Spam mortal wounds as I fight/die?

Pinch me I must be dreaming! Ah, then the grey overcast return to Marines.


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Just so I don't come entirely across as a misery guts, I do lurve Primaris units. Their 5-man squads feel like solid soliders, holding and taking ground or burning and purging with impunity. Their 3-man gravis squads just feel like true elites, small in number but huge in impact. Each model feels like a dude, capable of turning a game on their own. With RG tactics you switch off most OC plasma, their natural predator, and they can shine as the bully boys they were meant to be.

Martel732 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Id have to run the numbers, but I would guess that 18 points is about right for intercessors. They went down from 20 in chapter approved, so it makes sense. I still think they fill an odd role for Marines, and are still very flimsy vs D2, but I think that's more an issue with D2 weapons than it is with intercessors.

They are 15 pts tops in the 8th ed environment. Plasma scions alone knock them down from 18.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
So people don't think Wisdom of the Ancients and Sons of Guilliman are good strategems?

I don't think so. Compare to what Chaos and Eldar throw around and get back to me.

Yeah looks liked they'd have to be 17-18 to be as good as 13 point Marines, meaning 14-15 would get them in line with guardsmen.

Martel732 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.

It basically is true, because primaris firepower SUCKS on a per point basis. Primaris can't knock out the D2 weapons, and they get hammered for 5-6 turns and get tabled. Hellblasters do not cut it vs autocannons and the like with 48" range. Too many cheap D2 weapons. They have enough to shoot your crappy Repulsor and your primaris dudes. They don't need to shoot the intercessors, because intercessors are very ignorable for 3 turns. They need a drop pod.

It's weird to hear this. I guess I must not have won those 3 games on Saturday then. I can't have killed >150 orks in 3 turns, or smashed that nurgle daemon army, taking only a handful of casualties. Even though it seemed that I killed Mortarion on turn one, and then set about casually tidying up the rest of the death guard list, I must actually be mis-remembering.

I don't remember seeing an autocannon at the whole event, but that can't be right. I guess my opponents must have all gunned my guys down every game with their many, many autocannons. That's a shame.

Come to think of it, I do remember once playing a guy who had 6 rifleman dreadnoughts stood in a bubble around Azrael and a lieutenant, behind a row of assbacks. This was before his 4++ aura was nerfed, so the dreads got the save. I'm sure he'd have gunned down all my little dudes with his many many autocannons, had he not conceded before taking his second turn. I particularly remember how much my firepower SUCKED in that game. It sucked so much that Azrael was killed by mortal wounds caused by bits of exploding assback and dreadnought.

 Porphyrius wrote:

I don't think those strategems are useless or anything, but they're pretty situational. As Slayer mentions, you're pretty likely to have a captain's aura in range, plus the buff only lasts one round, not even the whole turn. Maybe if it provided a Chapter Master aura instead, or at least lasted in both the shooting and fight phases.

I think it is a waste of points to run a jump pack cpt to baby sit plasma Inceptors.

I know some people really love KS but all you have to do is kill one pred.

There is also a strategem that is basically DtTFE. I do like Flakk Missile and the HB one.

If the only two options are you not winning those games, or Marines being great, then I guess we know which is which.

I am winning games.

 Primark G wrote:
I am winning games.

So am I.

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.

It basically is true, because primaris firepower SUCKS on a per point basis. Primaris can't knock out the D2 weapons, and they get hammered for 5-6 turns and get tabled. Hellblasters do not cut it vs autocannons and the like with 48" range. Too many cheap D2 weapons. They have enough to shoot your crappy Repulsor and your primaris dudes. They don't need to shoot the intercessors, because intercessors are very ignorable for 3 turns. They need a drop pod.

It's weird to hear this. I guess I must not have won those 3 games on Saturday then. I can't have killed >150 orks in 3 turns, or smashed that nurgle daemon army, taking only a handful of casualties. Even though it seemed that I killed Mortarion on turn one, and then set about casually tidying up the rest of the death guard list, I must actually be mis-remembering.

I don't remember seeing an autocannon at the whole event, but that can't be right. I guess my opponents must have all gunned my guys down every game with their many, many autocannons. That's a shame.

Come to think of it, I do remember once playing a guy who had 6 rifleman dreadnoughts stood in a bubble around Azrael and a lieutenant, behind a row of assbacks. This was before his 4++ aura was nerfed, so the dreads got the save. I'm sure he'd have gunned down all my little dudes with his many many autocannons, had he not conceded before taking his second turn. I particularly remember how much my firepower SUCKED in that game. It sucked so much that Azrael was killed by mortal wounds caused by bits of exploding assback and dreadnought.

What's Martel is saying has actual tournament backing though. Your local events mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
I am winning games.

You don't even own the Marine index or codex!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am winning games.

So am I.

Heck yeah Walrus I always knew you are rocker!