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 Primark G wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am winning games.

So am I.

Heck yeah Walrus I always knew you are rocker!

Which doesn't change the fact that the Space Marine Codex is meh at best at the moment.

My BA have ripped every primaris list to bloody little pieces because their damage output sucks. So I don't know what scrubs are rolling over and showing their bellies to you. Once I plan for Eldar/IG/Chaos shenanigans, what the primaris marines are capable of is simply a joke.

I don't care who you've beaten, you can't make a primaris list with good damage output/pt because I you are stuck with the same points values I am. Now imagine trying to handle IG with indirect multiwound spam. What a joke.

I never said it is anything special... meh.

Martel732 wrote:

My BA have ripped every primaris list to bloody little pieces because their damage output sucks. So I don't know what scrubs are rolling over and showing their bellies to you. Once I plan for Eldar/IG/Chaos shenanigans, what the primaris marines are capable of is simply a joke.

I tabled a BA army last week in two turns. He was laughing when he seized too.

 Primark G wrote:
I am winning games.

Then the situation must be more nuanced than the poster above lead us to believe.

 Primark G wrote:
I never said it is anything special... meh.

Martel732 wrote:

My BA have ripped every primaris list to bloody little pieces because their damage output sucks. So I don't know what scrubs are rolling over and showing their bellies to you. Once I plan for Eldar/IG/Chaos shenanigans, what the primaris marines are capable of is simply a joke.

I tabled a BA army last week in two turns. He was laughing when he seized too.

Not with primaris you didn't.

I just pretended he was you and did my business.

I don't think there is any reason to doubt people are winning games. The level we hold units armies and players to online tends to be much higher than we typically see on the tables in our local areas. And id imagine that anyone that spends as much time on here reading about 40k is probably a decent player.

But, I think there are definitely a lot of issues with Marine codex. Currently, I'd say the chances of Marines winning a major tournement is something like zero. That's a problem, not just for Marines but for the game in general. And I think it's okay to talk about that and suggest fixes and so on.

I don't believe for a second that primaris marines tabled anything in two turns. Even ig can't do that.

I can give hellblasters 5+ fnp AND shoot after dying, and they STILL suck because of their cost, range, and fragility. I don't see how primaris marines do anything in the 8th ed meta other than make for wonderful target practice. And that's all i've ever seen them do: line up and die.

Sure it is okay to discuss ways to make Marines better. I am hoping for some new Primaris units and relatively cheap transports for them.

Ok so what sort of list did you table in two turns with what from the vanilla marine codex, as quiet frankly while I am having sucess, its mostly with lots of forgeworld and very little actual vanilla marine codex.
I'm currently moving over to my tau army as I can play a much more varied lists with way more CP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.

It basically is true, because primaris firepower SUCKS on a per point basis. Primaris can't knock out the D2 weapons, and they get hammered for 5-6 turns and get tabled. Hellblasters do not cut it vs autocannons and the like with 48" range. Too many cheap D2 weapons. They have enough to shoot your crappy Repulsor and your primaris dudes. They don't need to shoot the intercessors, because intercessors are very ignorable for 3 turns. They need a drop pod.

It's weird to hear this. I guess I must not have won those 3 games on Saturday then. I can't have killed >150 orks in 3 turns, or smashed that nurgle daemon army, taking only a handful of casualties. Even though it seemed that I killed Mortarion on turn one, and then set about casually tidying up the rest of the death guard list, I must actually be mis-remembering.

I don't remember seeing an autocannon at the whole event, but that can't be right. I guess my opponents must have all gunned my guys down every game with their many, many autocannons. That's a shame.

Come to think of it, I do remember once playing a guy who had 6 rifleman dreadnoughts stood in a bubble around Azrael and a lieutenant, behind a row of assbacks. This was before his 4++ aura was nerfed, so the dreads got the save. I'm sure he'd have gunned down all my little dudes with his many many autocannons, had he not conceded before taking his second turn. I particularly remember how much my firepower SUCKED in that game. It sucked so much that Azrael was killed by mortal wounds caused by bits of exploding assback and dreadnought.

What's Martel is saying has actual tournament backing though. Your local events mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Well I guess it depends what you count as an "actual tournament". That game vs the DA was at heat 1 of the GW 40k GT. The thing this weekend wasn't a huge event - something like 30 players in London - but had some good players there. The ork guy had also qualified for the GT finals, for example. Most people there were using it as practice for the London GT and/or the UK GT finals, so there were good players in the room.

A few weeks ago I took my marines to a try-out/practice event for the UK ETC team, where I won 3 games (vs knights + magnus, ravenguard and 6-flyrant nids), drew one (vs 9-flyrant nids that beat everyone else they played that weekend) and lost one vs GK/soup, because Celestine went nuts and walked through everything.

It is true to say that marines aren't performing well at tournaments right now, on average. They don't have IWIN buttons like ynnari reapers. Lots of units, like tactical marines for example, are weak. There's an irritating lack of stratagems. But you can build an army that will face off against serious opposition and beat it, if you know what you're doing.

Okay. I play against triple manticore, triple basilisk, triple plasma scions with 120 infantry a LOT. What does primaris have to offer against that? Other than a lot of sad 2W chumps?

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.

It basically is true, because primaris firepower SUCKS on a per point basis. Primaris can't knock out the D2 weapons, and they get hammered for 5-6 turns and get tabled. Hellblasters do not cut it vs autocannons and the like with 48" range. Too many cheap D2 weapons. They have enough to shoot your crappy Repulsor and your primaris dudes. They don't need to shoot the intercessors, because intercessors are very ignorable for 3 turns. They need a drop pod.

It's weird to hear this. I guess I must not have won those 3 games on Saturday then. I can't have killed >150 orks in 3 turns, or smashed that nurgle daemon army, taking only a handful of casualties. Even though it seemed that I killed Mortarion on turn one, and then set about casually tidying up the rest of the death guard list, I must actually be mis-remembering.

I don't remember seeing an autocannon at the whole event, but that can't be right. I guess my opponents must have all gunned my guys down every game with their many, many autocannons. That's a shame.

Come to think of it, I do remember once playing a guy who had 6 rifleman dreadnoughts stood in a bubble around Azrael and a lieutenant, behind a row of assbacks. This was before his 4++ aura was nerfed, so the dreads got the save. I'm sure he'd have gunned down all my little dudes with his many many autocannons, had he not conceded before taking his second turn. I particularly remember how much my firepower SUCKED in that game. It sucked so much that Azrael was killed by mortal wounds caused by bits of exploding assback and dreadnought.

What's Martel is saying has actual tournament backing though. Your local events mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Well I guess it depends what you count as an "actual tournament". That game vs the DA was at heat 1 of the GW 40k GT. The thing this weekend wasn't a huge event - something like 30 players in London - but had some good players there. The ork guy had also qualified for the GT finals, for example. Most people there were using it as practice for the London GT and/or the UK GT finals, so there were good players in the room.

A few weeks ago I took my marines to a try-out/practice event for the UK ETC team, where I won 3 games (vs knights + magnus, ravenguard and 6-flyrant nids), drew one (vs 9-flyrant nids that beat everyone else they played that weekend) and lost one vs GK/soup, because Celestine went nuts and walked through everything.

It is true to say that marines aren't performing well at tournaments right now, on average. They don't have IWIN buttons like ynnari reapers. Lots of units, like tactical marines for example, are weak. There's an irritating lack of stratagems. But you can build an army that will face off against serious opposition and beat it, if you know what you're doing.

I'm counting the stuff that gets recorded here from the large scale tournaments. Blood Of Kittens is also an excellent resource as well, though for 8th edition it hasn't been updated in a few months I believe.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.

It basically is true, because primaris firepower SUCKS on a per point basis. Primaris can't knock out the D2 weapons, and they get hammered for 5-6 turns and get tabled. Hellblasters do not cut it vs autocannons and the like with 48" range. Too many cheap D2 weapons. They have enough to shoot your crappy Repulsor and your primaris dudes. They don't need to shoot the intercessors, because intercessors are very ignorable for 3 turns. They need a drop pod.

It's weird to hear this. I guess I must not have won those 3 games on Saturday then. I can't have killed >150 orks in 3 turns, or smashed that nurgle daemon army, taking only a handful of casualties. Even though it seemed that I killed Mortarion on turn one, and then set about casually tidying up the rest of the death guard list, I must actually be mis-remembering.

I don't remember seeing an autocannon at the whole event, but that can't be right. I guess my opponents must have all gunned my guys down every game with their many, many autocannons. That's a shame.

Come to think of it, I do remember once playing a guy who had 6 rifleman dreadnoughts stood in a bubble around Azrael and a lieutenant, behind a row of assbacks. This was before his 4++ aura was nerfed, so the dreads got the save. I'm sure he'd have gunned down all my little dudes with his many many autocannons, had he not conceded before taking his second turn. I particularly remember how much my firepower SUCKED in that game. It sucked so much that Azrael was killed by mortal wounds caused by bits of exploding assback and dreadnought.

What's Martel is saying has actual tournament backing though. Your local events mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Well I guess it depends what you count as an "actual tournament". That game vs the DA was at heat 1 of the GW 40k GT. The thing this weekend wasn't a huge event - something like 30 players in London - but had some good players there. The ork guy had also qualified for the GT finals, for example. Most people there were using it as practice for the London GT and/or the UK GT finals, so there were good players in the room.

A few weeks ago I took my marines to a try-out/practice event for the UK ETC team, where I won 3 games (vs knights + magnus, ravenguard and 6-flyrant nids), drew one (vs 9-flyrant nids that beat everyone else they played that weekend) and lost one vs GK/soup, because Celestine went nuts and walked through everything.

It is true to say that marines aren't performing well at tournaments right now, on average. They don't have IWIN buttons like ynnari reapers. Lots of units, like tactical marines for example, are weak. There's an irritating lack of stratagems. But you can build an army that will face off against serious opposition and beat it, if you know what you're doing.

I'm counting the stuff that gets recorded here from the large scale tournaments. Blood Of Kittens is also an excellent resource as well, though for 8th edition it hasn't been updated in a few months I believe.

Fair enough. As I've said, on average marines are not performing well. The trouble is, the stats for the average marine player are a bit weird, because basically everyone has a marine army. There are lots of new players with marines who turn up at tournaments and do badly. It messes up the stats quite a bit. Not every tournament enters their stats into these listings (Warhammer world events don't, for example) - but enough do to give you a decent idea of the meta.

Lawrence, the guy who runs tabletop tactics, won heat 1 of the UKGT with a Guilliman list - though that was back in October before a lot of codexes were out. A friend of mine was second with ravenguard.

I have to admit that I'm playing my army as a bit of a project, to see if I can make a marine list that competes. It's a pretty extreme variant and I've thrown out a large amount of the book to get there. But what I'm left with is a list that can genuinely compete at the top level. It's fun to play and it looks good, so I'm happy.

Ice_can wrote:
Ok so what sort of list did you table in two turns with what from the vanilla marine codex, as quiet frankly while I am having sucess, its mostly with lots of forgeworld and very little actual vanilla marine codex.
I'm currently moving over to my tau army as I can play a much more varied lists with way more CP.

Tiggy
Primaris Lt (Burning Blade)

2x 5 Intercerssor (AGL & PS)
5x Scout

5x Hellblaster

4x Inceptor (plasma)

Trajann

Shield-Cpt on Dawneagle (3++)

3x Allarus (axes)
4x Warden (3x axe + spear)
Vexilla (5++ - spear)

Culexus

My army is very melee oriented so I don't think it is a stretch it can beat BA.

Half that list is Custodes, not Primaris. Big difference. And lots of BA are jelloheads who would charge right into that. That list basically has no shooting, so charging it seems absolutely insane.

 Primark G wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Ok so what sort of list did you table in two turns with what from the vanilla marine codex, as quiet frankly while I am having sucess, its mostly with lots of forgeworld and very little actual vanilla marine codex.
I'm currently moving over to my tau army as I can play a much more varied lists with way more CP.

Tiggy
Primaris Lt (Burning Blade)

2x 5 Intercerssor (AGL & PS)
5x Scout

5x Hellblaster

4x Inceptor (plasma)

Trajann

Shield-Cpt on Dawneagle (3++)

3x Allarus (axes)
4x Warden (3x axe + spear)
Vexilla (5++ - spear)

Culexus

My army is very melee oriented so I don't think it is a stretch it can beat BA.

I'm sorry but with over 1k of custodes thats not a marine list thats a cuatodes list with some primaris added, which quiet frankly would do better with guard support over marines.

But his oiled abs quiver with anticipation my lord.

Haha good one Martel.

I'll give you this as a peace branch:

Custodes are far more effective than I at first thought. They are what terminators and the like are billed to be. But primaris marines have more in common with terminators than with custodes, unfortunately. 3 damage weapons are FAR more rare than 2 damage weapons, and that just makes Custodes. If I wasn't souping in IG, I'd consider Custodes. I just can't turn down punisher tanks and 4 ppm chaff.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I think marines suffered in various ways for being the first codex. We're seeing some more imaginitive stuff now. It's like they need a supplement, preferably with some new Primaris toys, to bring them up to speed.

Plasma scions sound bad but to be honest I've never seen them fielded in a tournament game. I'm not sure why that is. If they use them on your intercessors they kill 66.6 points of guys, but they cost 88 points - plus a 40 point commander so you can have them. Pop auspex scan and 2.2 of the scions will be dead before they fire anyway. Then you only lose 1.65 intercessors, or just under 30 points worth of guys - which is less than the value of the scions you just shot, in your opponent's turn. That assumes that the intercessors aren't in cover.

There seems to be a persistant idea that the existence of D2 weapons means that Primaris are unplayable. It's simply not true. Actually, not enough people play Primaris for it to be worth bringing weapons specifically to deal with them. People who do bring big guns would much rather be firing them at tanks than Intercessors.

It basically is true, because primaris firepower SUCKS on a per point basis. Primaris can't knock out the D2 weapons, and they get hammered for 5-6 turns and get tabled. Hellblasters do not cut it vs autocannons and the like with 48" range. Too many cheap D2 weapons. They have enough to shoot your crappy Repulsor and your primaris dudes. They don't need to shoot the intercessors, because intercessors are very ignorable for 3 turns. They need a drop pod.

It's weird to hear this. I guess I must not have won those 3 games on Saturday then. I can't have killed >150 orks in 3 turns, or smashed that nurgle daemon army, taking only a handful of casualties. Even though it seemed that I killed Mortarion on turn one, and then set about casually tidying up the rest of the death guard list, I must actually be mis-remembering.

I don't remember seeing an autocannon at the whole event, but that can't be right. I guess my opponents must have all gunned my guys down every game with their many, many autocannons. That's a shame.

Come to think of it, I do remember once playing a guy who had 6 rifleman dreadnoughts stood in a bubble around Azrael and a lieutenant, behind a row of assbacks. This was before his 4++ aura was nerfed, so the dreads got the save. I'm sure he'd have gunned down all my little dudes with his many many autocannons, had he not conceded before taking his second turn. I particularly remember how much my firepower SUCKED in that game. It sucked so much that Azrael was killed by mortal wounds caused by bits of exploding assback and dreadnought.

What's Martel is saying has actual tournament backing though. Your local events mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Well I guess it depends what you count as an "actual tournament". That game vs the DA was at heat 1 of the GW 40k GT. The thing this weekend wasn't a huge event - something like 30 players in London - but had some good players there. The ork guy had also qualified for the GT finals, for example. Most people there were using it as practice for the London GT and/or the UK GT finals, so there were good players in the room.

A few weeks ago I took my marines to a try-out/practice event for the UK ETC team, where I won 3 games (vs knights + magnus, ravenguard and 6-flyrant nids), drew one (vs 9-flyrant nids that beat everyone else they played that weekend) and lost one vs GK/soup, because Celestine went nuts and walked through everything.

It is true to say that marines aren't performing well at tournaments right now, on average. They don't have IWIN buttons like ynnari reapers. Lots of units, like tactical marines for example, are weak. There's an irritating lack of stratagems. But you can build an army that will face off against serious opposition and beat it, if you know what you're doing.

I'm counting the stuff that gets recorded here from the large scale tournaments. Blood Of Kittens is also an excellent resource as well, though for 8th edition it hasn't been updated in a few months I believe.

Fair enough. As I've said, on average marines are not performing well. The trouble is, the stats for the average marine player are a bit weird, because basically everyone has a marine army. There are lots of new players with marines who turn up at tournaments and do badly. It messes up the stats quite a bit. Not every tournament enters their stats into these listings (Warhammer world events don't, for example) - but enough do to give you a decent idea of the meta.

Lawrence, the guy who runs tabletop tactics, won heat 1 of the UKGT with a Guilliman list - though that was back in October before a lot of codexes were out. A friend of mine was second with ravenguard.

I have to admit that I'm playing my army as a bit of a project, to see if I can make a marine list that competes. It's a pretty extreme variant and I've thrown out a large amount of the book to get there. But what I'm left with is a list that can genuinely compete at the top level. It's fun to play and it looks good, so I'm happy.

I don't think new players have anything to do with it, as most people don't enter even local tournaments without intention of being mildly good. I've never seen a cobbled-together deck in Yugioh and Magic, and the same thing for armies in 40k. Main difference is you have more fun playing lamer armies than decks of course, but the point remains you can't blame new players for those statstics.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I don't think new players have anything to do with it, as most people don't enter even local tournaments without intention of being mildly good. I've never seen a cobbled-together deck in Yugioh and Magic, and the same thing for armies in 40k. Main difference is you have more fun playing lamer armies than decks of course, but the point remains you can't blame new players for those statstics.

Cant say it was cobbled together but i did enjoy going to FNM and even once a regional with a pauper standard deck.

quite delicious tears of people you beat that had a deck about 100 times the cost of yours

Martel732 wrote:
I'll give you this as a peace branch:

Custodes are far more effective than I at first thought. They are what terminators and the like are billed to be. But primaris marines have more in common with terminators than with custodes, unfortunately. 3 damage weapons are FAR more rare than 2 damage weapons, and that just makes Custodes.

And that's why Paladins for GK armies aren't terrible. They aren't great, granted, but at least they aren't hardcore bringing down your list using them. Getting more special weapon saturation makes them more attractive too but that's a different story.

Of course they're much less effective than Custodes but we can chalk that up to a different story as well.

Okay Martel olive branch accepted. I hope you can understand that while Primaris are obviously not Custodes the units I field do have utility... plasma is really good now for example. Is every AM absolutely amazing - heck no.

Mandragola, only just saw that you respnded to me about your tourny list before, sorry! Thanks for the rationale, very encouraging to hear. I have a lot of proxying to do over the next few weeks now - trying out 3 Vindis, and 2 Repulsors in different lists!

Why didn't you take the atomic 5++ on your deredeo, if I may ask? I would have thought that 2 Repulsors would have loved an invuln if they lost initiative? Also, if two survive the first round, one can rock Might of Heroes T9, the other sticks close for the 5++...

I'm not convinced that a repulsor would fit wholly with 6 inch's of a doredeo for the 5++, making a sicaran fit is tricky predators and rhinos are achievable landradiers arn't practicable.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll give you this as a peace branch:

Custodes are far more effective than I at first thought. They are what terminators and the like are billed to be. But primaris marines have more in common with terminators than with custodes, unfortunately. 3 damage weapons are FAR more rare than 2 damage weapons, and that just makes Custodes. If I wasn't souping in IG, I'd consider Custodes. I just can't turn down punisher tanks and 4 ppm chaff.

this brings up the obvious question, do Marines bring anything to the table that you can't achomplish just as well with a custodes/Ig soup list?

Ice_can wrote:
I'm not convinced that a repulsor would fit wholly with 6 inch's of a doredeo for the 5++, making a sicaran fit is tricky predators and rhinos are achievable landradiers arn't practicable.

Doesn't just part of the model need to be in the aura? I don't have the FW book handy.

What WOULD work Tarantula Sentry Guns like that though. You could circle your Dreadnought so hard nothing can charge it out in the open, and while they aren't terribly durable you can opt for Raven Guard or Iron Hands.
I'd be thinking something along the lines of:

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTT D D D TTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

Just as a fun idea of course. Not meant to be taken seriously but everyone knows I love Tarantula Sentry Guns.

 grouchoben wrote:
Mandragola, only just saw that you respnded to me about your tourny list before, sorry! Thanks for the rationale, very encouraging to hear. I have a lot of proxying to do over the next few weeks now - trying out 3 Vindis, and 2 Repulsors in different lists!

Why didn't you take the atomic 5++ on your deredeo, if I may ask? I would have thought that 2 Repulsors would have loved an invuln if they lost initiative? Also, if two survive the first round, one can rock Might of Heroes T9, the other sticks close for the 5++...

So the short, embarrassing answer is that I ought to have put the 5++ bubble on the deredeo. I didn't really think of it until after I'd submitted my list. I was actually planning on trying out my Tau at the event, but couldn't get them ready in time, so I kind of grabbed an army. The deredeo filled the slot formerly occupied by a mortis contemptor.

I should probably look at whether I can still squeeze it in. Ok, I did look at it. Here's what that would look like, at exactly 2k:

Battalion

Primaris Captain with Power Fist (Warlord) 106

Primaris Lieutenant 74

Intercessor Squad with grenade launcher 91

Intercessor Squad with no grenade launcher :( 90

Scout Squad 55

4 Aggressors 148

Relic Deredeo Dreadnought with Pavise 237

Hellblaster Squad 165

Repulsor 336

Repulsor 336

Fire Raptor 362

I've had to remove the frag launchers from the repulsors and replace the icarus launchers with storm bolters. A hellblaster squad also had to go. So that leaves me with 4 aggressors and my characters deploying in one repulsor, while 5 hellblasters and 5 intercessors deploy in the other one. Actually it's no bad thing to have intercessors in a repulsor. They get to run forwards and get in the way of stuff, which is their job. I don't have to put them in there if I need them to screen.

The funny thing is that I look at this list and I think it might not suck. The deredeo's bubble would be very welcome indeed, and the thing does shoot stuff dead. People might even try to kill it, rather than my other stuff, if they get annoyed by it handing out invulnerable saves. That probably wouldn't be a great plan, all things considered.

I've been thinking about dropping the librarian anyway. With a lot of stuff in his bubble the lieutenant does at least as much good. I'm actually vaguely considering the lieutenant with the gun instead of the sword - the sword doesn't do much. Neither does the gun though, so it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference, and the sword guy is painted at least. I have found that he quite often gets to throw grenades at things anyway, so he doesn't really miss having no gun.

Any not-named Librarian ain't worth it.