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Ice_can wrote:
I'm not convinced that a repulsor would fit wholly with 6 inch's of a doredeo for the 5++, making a sicaran fit is tricky predators and rhinos are achievable landradiers arn't practicable.

Does it need to? Units have to be wholly within 6", but I'm fairly sure that means every model in the unit has to be within 6". That's definitely one to check, because otherwise it's pointless. There'd be no way to affect the fire raptor, for starters.

 Primark G wrote:
Okay Martel olive branch accepted. I hope you can understand that while Primaris are obviously not Custodes the units I field do have utility... plasma is really good now for example. Is every AM absolutely amazing - heck no.

The 30" range sucks so bad in my experience. Xeno lists full of 36" guns alpha strike you every time. This can mean dozens of heavy venom cannon shots, for example. Even with the FNP banner they just can take the hits.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

this brings up the obvious question, do Marines bring anything to the table that you can't achomplish just as well with a custodes/Ig soup list?

The AM detachment from the Adepticon top 8 list is there to farm CPs. The mortars can do some damage versus chaff. I’ve seen two VBRs on the FLG channel - all the AM units were destroyed fairly quick both turns. I think maybe a better question is what is the right ratio for Custodes and another detachment? Maybe it’s possible there’s a better combination. Ultramarines let’s you farm CPs as well but not as much. But anyways we are going off topic.

I think the Derededo (sp?) is a good choice but if you want a bigger 5++ bubble consider taking a Vexilla Praetor - you can take one in an auxiliary detachment - probably the terminator variant is the best choice.

I think Intercessors are good*, but people running a pure Primaris army are just running with gimmicks. I've been running with just 2 5 man squads of Intercessors with 4 scout squads (two battalions) and just those 2 5 mans do work. They're sturdy enough to hold objectives and usually will kill about 1 thing, and usually they aren't a priority target and don't get blasted off the board like people say.

Yes, anyone who does 2 damage to them (or overcharges plasma and risks blowing themselves up on 1s and 2s since Raven Guard) will obviously double their effectiveness but that's somewhat of a tradeoff since that means they're spending time blasting at my troops and not the things that will be rolling over them.

*By good, I mean fieldable for Space Marines. Of the three troop choices, they certainly belong in second place.

Mandragola wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I'm not convinced that a repulsor would fit wholly with 6 inch's of a doredeo for the 5++, making a sicaran fit is tricky predators and rhinos are achievable landradiers arn't practicable.

Does it need to? Units have to be wholly within 6", but I'm fairly sure that means every model in the unit has to be within 6". That's definitely one to check, because otherwise it's pointless. There'd be no way to affect the fire raptor, for starters.

They need to be wholly within it. Check the FAQ.

It would be a tight fit... They do need to be wholly within 6" of the deredeo, and the Praetor is out as its 5++ only works on infantry.

Yeah what I’m asking is what “wholly within” means. Does it mean every model in a unit has to be within 6”, or all of every model has to be within 6”?

ITC tournaments rule that for a unit to be in cover all of the models need to be at least partially inside the cover. So my repulsors are in cover if they are touching terrain (though they also need to be 50% obscured to get their saves improved). You need a unit to be “entirely” in cover, not “wholly”, but I’m not ire that’s different.

I might need to contact FW or the TOs. Even with the bonus I’m not sure I’d take the deredeo, though it would certainly be tempting. If units have to be right next to it though there’s no point. The fire raptor is more than 6” long, for starters.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah what I’m asking is what “wholly within” means. Does it mean every model in a unit has to be within 6”, or all of every model has to be within 6”?

ITC tournaments rule that for a unit to be in cover all of the models need to be at least partially inside the cover. So my repulsors are in cover if they are touching terrain (though they also need to be 50% obscured to get their saves improved). You need a unit to be “entirely” in cover, not “wholly”, but I’m not ire that’s different.

I might need to contact FW or the TOs. Even with the bonus I’m not sure I’d take the deredeo, though it would certainly be tempting. If units have to be right next to it though there’s no point. The fire raptor is more than 6” long, for starters.

Its all of every model in the unit, it won't work on a fireraptor, but if your taking a fireraptor your already taking a competative option it certainly doesn't need a 5++.

Ice_can wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah what I’m asking is what “wholly within” means. Does it mean every model in a unit has to be within 6”, or all of every model has to be within 6”?

ITC tournaments rule that for a unit to be in cover all of the models need to be at least partially inside the cover. So my repulsors are in cover if they are touching terrain (though they also need to be 50% obscured to get their saves improved). You need a unit to be “entirely” in cover, not “wholly”, but I’m not ire that’s different.

I might need to contact FW or the TOs. Even with the bonus I’m not sure I’d take the deredeo, though it would certainly be tempting. If units have to be right next to it though there’s no point. The fire raptor is more than 6” long, for starters.

Its all of every model in the unit, it won't work on a fireraptor, but if your taking a fireraptor your already taking a competative option it certainly doesn't need a 5++.

I think you're probably right, but I'd love to see a source for that. It's not how cover works, and I can't tell what's different about the two rules.

From the rules FAQ:

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the unit/model is within.

We're talking about a single model, which is less complex than a unit. There are really only 3 options for a model to be. Out of 6", within 6", or wholly within 6".

So every model has to be wholly within 6".

jcd386 wrote:
From the rules FAQ:

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the unit/model is within.

We're talking about a single model, which is less complex than a unit. There are really only 3 options for a model to be. Out of 6", within 6", or wholly within 6".

So every model has to be wholly within 6".

Great, thanks for that. It's interesting because that suggests that cover should only work if models are fully within it, which isn't how tournaments I've been to lately seem to rule it.

Anyway it means I'll probably leave the shield generator off the deredeo - if I take it at all. It would actually help things like the aggressors a bit, but the dread likes to chill out on its own most of the time, and having it run around with hellblasters and aggressors doesn't make a lot of sense. I might just swap it out for a second hellblaster squad.

Weirdly for cover the role says "if the unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature."

I think what it is trying to say is that the entire unit, meaning every model in it, has to be within the terrain. Otherwise it would say the unit has to be entirely wholly within.

But yeah not super clear.

Ok cool, I suppose that makes sense. But it leaves us with "entirely within" and "wholly within" meaning different things... which they usually don't!

I think I would look at the word entirely as modifying the word on, more than I would the word within. Obviously silly, but there is a precedent for within and wholly within already, whereas there aren't many rules about units bring on things? Idk that seems to be how they've intended it so far.

I just checked and a repulsor fits wholly within 6" of the base anyway.

Nice!

So that means you guys are looking at a setup of:
R D R D R
Just shield with Taratulas and Scouts I guess

I still love the Repulsor but it’s too many points imo and some armies can smoke one first turn.

 Primark G wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

this brings up the obvious question, do Marines bring anything to the table that you can't achomplish just as well with a custodes/Ig soup list?

The AM detachment from the Adepticon top 8 list is there to farm CPs. The mortars can do some damage versus chaff. I’ve seen two VBRs on the FLG channel - all the AM units were destroyed fairly quick both turns. I think maybe a better question is what is the right ratio for Custodes and another detachment? Maybe it’s possible there’s a better combination. Ultramarines let’s you farm CPs as well but not as much. But anyways we are going off topic.

I think the Derededo (sp?) is a good choice but if you want a bigger 5++ bubble consider taking a Vexilla Praetor - you can take one in an auxiliary detachment - probably the terminator variant is the best choice.

Afraid it's only 5++ on infantry Mandragola...

Yeah I got that one wrong sorry.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Okay Martel olive branch accepted. I hope you can understand that while Primaris are obviously not Custodes the units I field do have utility... plasma is really good now for example. Is every AM absolutely amazing - heck no.

The 30" range sucks so bad in my experience. Xeno lists full of 36" guns alpha strike you every time. This can mean dozens of heavy venom cannon shots, for example. Even with the FNP banner they just can take the hits.

Ultimately it's space marines biggest problem - they aren't a gun line army - most of their guns are 24-30 max range and need to be within half that to do meaningful damage and they suck in assault. In other words we are really missing drop pods at a reasonable price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
I still love the Repulsor but it’s too many points imo and some armies can smoke one first turn.

Check out space marine proposed changes in FAQ in the proposed rules section. I think it needs to drop down to about 300 points with it's most expenisve build - and gain a 5 or 6+ FNP.

 grouchoben wrote:
Afraid it's only 5++ on infantry Mandragola...

Ahh cool. I remember thinking that it was rubbish when I first saw it, but couldn't remember why. That's why!

To be honest, I wasn't sold on swapping the deredeo and fire raptor for the custodes. That's an awful lot less shooting I'd have, along with 2 more drops.

Back to the ol' drawing board.

Mandragola wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Afraid it's only 5++ on infantry Mandragola...

Ahh cool. I remember thinking that it was rubbish when I first saw it, but couldn't remember why. That's why!

To be honest, I wasn't sold on swapping the deredeo and fire raptor for the custodes. That's an awful lot less shooting I'd have, along with 2 more drops.

Back to the ol' drawing board.

It isn't rubbish at all, and really one of the best reasons to use Custodes allies outside the Bike Captains (who are going to likely be hit soon. You've been warned).

So, everyone agree that the SM codex is a bit weak, but what about the FW units ? I see you are speaking about some here (deredo). Is there any unit usable, viable in the FW index ? I guess the tarentrula ?

"It isn't rubbish at all, and really one of the best reasons to use Custodes allies outside the Bike Captains"

In general sure, but it is rubbish for his list - the context was that we're talking about ways of sneaking a 5++ onto two Repulsors to help them stay around a turn longer


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FW is where all the good SM units live! Fire Raptors, Deredeos, Storm Cannon Leviathans, Mortis Dreadnoughts, Chaplain Dreadnoughts and Sicarians are all in the upper regions of SM units I think.

The issue with the FW dudes is that almost everything is a Relic. Even CSM don't have that restriction I don't think.

 godardc wrote:
So, everyone agree that the SM codex is a bit weak, but what about the FW units ? I see you are speaking about some here (deredo). Is there any unit usable, viable in the FW index ? I guess the tarentrula ?

The Fire Raptor is one of the best units in the entire game.

I guess I have an order to make on FW then ! As always, thanks for your help and your experience

Yeah my marine list is surviving purely on the benifit of forgeworld making more balanced rules than GW for marines.