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2018/05/03 00:10:44
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
I’m thinking 6, 9 or even 12 dreads, probably salamanders for the rerolls, some combination of regular, ironclad, venerable and mortis to keep the rule of 3?
Or are dreads just too fragile, even in large numbers?
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
2018/05/03 00:20:39
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Haven’t tried it, but I’m building a similar army for my Salamanders (designed for 30k but will be using in 40k). Not sure it’ll actually be all that good, but it does sound cool.
2018/05/03 01:01:14
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Dreadnought heavy list might work. But maybe not for Salamanders or even not Space Marines. I'd think best choice would be Space Wolf and Blood Angels.
The former can bring up to 3 Venerable Dreadnought w Axe and Shield, Bjorn and Murderfang. The later can bring Librarian Dread. Against such a list the shooty enemy have to eat throw 24 T7 Wounds with 3++/6+++ before they can get to those Dread who don't have an inv saves.
Outside of the two special Chapters, Ironhand might do "not bad" in Dread list despite the beating they take in the FAQ. However, it is better for the IH Dread to be Contemptor Dread or Leviathan Dread. So they have 5++ or 4++ on top of their CT giving them 6+++.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 01:01:37
2018/05/03 01:18:23
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Salamanders get Bray'arth Ashmantle AKA "the Brick" though. Toughness 9 is hilarious.
3 Spearheads/Vanguards with him, Vulkan, and a Techmarine could be fun. Vulkan buffing Bray'arth and a melta Leviathan would be super murderous bonus points for throwing a chaplain dread in there with Armour Indomitus or the Salamanders Mantle
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spearhead
HQ Bray'arth
Chaplain Dread - (Anvil of Strength) AC, Salamander Mantle/Armour Indomitus
HEAVY SUPPORT
Mortis - 2x twin las
Mortis - 2x twin auto
Leviathan - melta, drill, 3 HKM
Vanguard
HQ Vulkan
Techmarine
ELITES
2x Ven Dread - twin las, twin auto
Ironclad - chainfist, hurricane bolter, 2 HKM
Comes to 2000 on the nose. Three S16-18 combat monsters, two of which can't be targeted, marching up the field is no joke. Expensive as all hell and probably not the best way to run it, but it'd be super fun
(Edit: 3-4 detatchments from my previous post was a bit ambitious )
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/03 12:26:42
Primark G wrote: Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?
Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.
HB tarantula must shoot closest enemy INFANTRY
LC tarantula must shoot closest enemy non-INFANTRY
Other tarantulas must shoot closest enemy unit
Not having a HB or LC doesn't exempt them from the Automated Artillery rule.
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Salamanders get Bray'arth Ashmantle AKA "the Brick" though. Toughness 9 is hilarious.
3 Spearheads/Vanguards with him, Vulkan, and a Techmarine could be fun. Vulkan buffing Bray'arth and a melta Leviathan would be super murderous bonus points for throwing a chaplain dread in there with Armour Indomitus or the Salamanders Mantle
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spearhead
HQ Bray'arth
Chaplain Dread - (Anvil of Strength) AC, Salamander Mantle/Armour Indomitus
ELITES
Mortis - 2x twin las
Mortis - 2x twin auto
Leviathan - melta, drill, 3 HKM
Vanguard
HQ Vulkan
Techmarine
ELITES
2x Ven Dread - twin las, twin auto
Ironclad - chainfist, hurricane bolter, 2 HKM
Comes to 2000 on the nose. Three S16-18 combat monsters, two of which can't be targeted, marching up the field is no joke. Expensive as all hell and probably not the best way to run it, but it'd be super fun
(Edit: 3-4 detatchments from my previous post was a bit ambitious )
Leviathans and Mortis dreads are heavy support, not elite, though that's not a huge problem.
I'd probably put in a Deredeo with the 6" 5++ bubble.
This could be a fun list, but clearly it's got limitations. One of these is its ability to move around the battlefield. I think I'd generally focus on having more, cheaper dreads than are in this list. 3 normal contemptors would probably be the first pick I'd make. Maybe a couple of normal dreads with twin heavy bolters and autocannons (using the Index weapon options).
2018/05/03 11:19:26
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Obviously should play a spearhead with Culln as the HQ, 3 leviathans and 3 contemptor mortis.
Use whichever tactics. Ultramarines, since you cant use the Salamanders relic/wlt with Culln thanks to the FAQ.
Though if you are already playing our brothers from Nocturne, Brayarth is the way to go for sure.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2018/05/03 12:17:03
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
I typically use a Chaplain Dread in my lists, and a benefit of the Stratagem is that he keeps up pretty well with Rhinos/Razors and gives those plasma Tacticals a reroll aura. Captain and Lt hang with the static element of my army.
On Tarantulas they are, of course, only used to fill Brigades. For that, there is nothing better unless you just randomly have extra points in a Brigade. Also their deployment should be considered in other situations as well. They are exactly what their name suggests... sentries. Stick them on home objectives (I usually place mine close to center field anyways) or use them as a screen and they are cheap, with decent firepower. I use the TAC ones because that is what my Razorback turrets are, otherwise I would choose the HB ones since the price on the TAC went up.
2018/05/03 12:26:14
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Salamanders get Bray'arth Ashmantle AKA "the Brick" though. Toughness 9 is hilarious.
3 Spearheads/Vanguards with him, Vulkan, and a Techmarine could be fun. Vulkan buffing Bray'arth and a melta Leviathan would be super murderous bonus points for throwing a chaplain dread in there with Armour Indomitus or the Salamanders Mantle
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spearhead
HQ Bray'arth
Chaplain Dread - (Anvil of Strength) AC, Salamander Mantle/Armour Indomitus
ELITES
Mortis - 2x twin las
Mortis - 2x twin auto
Leviathan - melta, drill, 3 HKM
Vanguard
HQ Vulkan
Techmarine
ELITES
2x Ven Dread - twin las, twin auto
Ironclad - chainfist, hurricane bolter, 2 HKM
Comes to 2000 on the nose. Three S16-18 combat monsters, two of which can't be targeted, marching up the field is no joke. Expensive as all hell and probably not the best way to run it, but it'd be super fun
(Edit: 3-4 detatchments from my previous post was a bit ambitious )
Leviathans and Mortis dreads are heavy support, not elite, though that's not a huge problem.
I'd probably put in a Deredeo with the 6" 5++ bubble.
This could be a fun list, but clearly it's got limitations. One of these is its ability to move around the battlefield. I think I'd generally focus on having more, cheaper dreads than are in this list. 3 normal contemptors would probably be the first pick I'd make. Maybe a couple of normal dreads with twin heavy bolters and autocannons (using the Index weapon options).
Oh whoops, I labelled it as a spearhead, just wrote the wrong thing above the units. If you could find the points, the 5++ Deredeo on the back line would be a good call! and yeah I totally agree! more cheaper dreads would definitely be the way to go if genuinely considering a full dread list.
Crazyterran wrote:Obviously should play a spearhead with Culln as the HQ, 3 leviathans and 3 contemptor mortis.
Use whichever tactics. Ultramarines, since you cant use the Salamanders relic/wlt with Culln thanks to the FAQ.
Though if you are already playing our brothers from Nocturne, Brayarth is the way to go for sure.
If you're not running venerables or relic contemptors, iron hands could be a good tactic. I'd probably go salamanders though, even without the relic and trait. If you kept things cheap you could even fit a chaplain dread in there and run it as two spearheads instead
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 12:29:04
Really pretty straight-forward. Kinda spammy, but that is Marines for you. Heckblasters with a Cap and Looie for max potential. Trio of ABs to go hunt down tanks. Scouts to space out and keep deep strikers in check, while the Intercessors form up behind and shoot stuff and hold objectives. Trio of Aggressors that Strike from the Shadows to apply early pressure - and a Cap that can go with them to boost their shooting potential a bit. Could even make that Cap a Chapter Master for the extra buff. With 15CP to burn, the list won't sweat losing 7 out of the gate, right?
Not sure how this list would actually hold up in a competitive/tourney environment, but I like the idea of it a lot and I have a good chunk of it already purchased.
I was thinking salamanders mainly because I have a pile of leftover Black Reach dreads (MM and DCCW) that I'm not using with my RG. The Salamanders CT makes single-shot dread MMs less painful, even if Vulkan isn't around.
And even though a quad lascannon or autocannon mortis only gets the one reroll, that typically turns the 2-miss volley into a 1-miss volley.
Then obviously some ironclads would benefit with rerolls both on the first-turn volley of HKMs, and then either Vulkan or the flamer strat if they're packing dual heavy flamers.
With three of each, those numbers really start to add up.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
2018/05/05 12:08:05
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
I'd personally drop the attack bikes and move to 2 battalions. 13 CP would be plenty. I also don't really see the point of camo cloaks, but that's just a personal preference. At most, you'd be looking at using SftS 4 times with that list, maybe 5, due to the new points and power level restriction. This leaves you 8-9 cp left for whatever else you want to do - which would likely just be standard re-rolls anyway, which you have the Captains and Lieutenant for.
After getting a 2nd Lieutenant you'd have 108 points left over, so you could add something in there, or you could drop the 3rd Hellblaster squad for some plasma Inceptors etc.
That or, you could combine some of the squads to help reduce the amount of drops.
Anti-tank will prob be a problem, but, also, 3 multi-melta attack bikes aren't going to solve that problem for you either.
2018/05/03 13:52:24
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Really pretty straight-forward. Kinda spammy, but that is Marines for you. Heckblasters with a Cap and Looie for max potential. Trio of ABs to go hunt down tanks. Scouts to space out and keep deep strikers in check, while the Intercessors form up behind and shoot stuff and hold objectives. Trio of Aggressors that Strike from the Shadows to apply early pressure - and a Cap that can go with them to boost their shooting potential a bit. Could even make that Cap a Chapter Master for the extra buff. With 15CP to burn, the list won't sweat losing 7 out of the gate, right?
Not sure how this list would actually hold up in a competitive/tourney environment, but I like the idea of it a lot and I have a good chunk of it already purchased.
Thoughts? Ideas?
I don't think you need to go for a brigade. By doing so, you're buying "tax" units that you don't want - mainly in your fast attack slot. There are more troops than you really need as well. I'd go for a battalion instead, maybe with a spearhead and/or vanguard if you actually need a 3rd HQ. I think your best bet might be to just have two captains, to give good coverage for all your hellblasters, and leave it at that.
Post FAQ I don't think there's any need for scouts for ravenguard. Maybe one unit, to secure a spot for your SftS guys. And they absolutely don't need camo cloaks.
On the other hand if you're set on using a brigade, scout bikers are pretty good. These would make a good exchange for the attack bikes, and dropping the camo cloaks would get you the points you need to do that.
I don't think you've got enough anti tank. I'd probably look to add some, probably by adding more hellblasters. Assault hellblasters are really good for ravenguard, because they can fire at full effect from a safer distance.
Intercessor squads should always have auxiliary grenade launchers.
2018/05/03 14:16:14
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Post FAQ I don't think there's any need for scouts for ravenguard. Maybe one unit, to secure a spot for your SftS guys. And they absolutely don't need camo cloaks.
On the other hand if you're set on using a brigade, scout bikers are pretty good. These would make a good exchange for the attack bikes, and dropping the camo cloaks would get you the points you need to do that.
Scout Bikers are fantastic, I agree.
As for needing Scouts, I think 2 units of 7 generally works well. 1(well technically 0) would do the trick against most armies, but, when you come up against other Scouts, Nurglings and Stealth T’au units having that extra unit to claim a secondary drop area option is really helpful.
It also helps deny drop areas for Alpha Legion, Rangers, Admech etc as well.
2018/05/03 16:06:50
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Post FAQ I don't think there's any need for scouts for ravenguard. Maybe one unit, to secure a spot for your SftS guys. And they absolutely don't need camo cloaks.
On the other hand if you're set on using a brigade, scout bikers are pretty good. These would make a good exchange for the attack bikes, and dropping the camo cloaks would get you the points you need to do that.
Scout Bikers are fantastic, I agree.
As for needing Scouts, I think 2 units of 7 generally works well. 1(well technically 0) would do the trick against most armies, but, when you come up against other Scouts, Nurglings and Stealth T’au units having that extra unit to claim a secondary drop area option is really helpful.
It also helps deny drop areas for Alpha Legion, Rangers, Admech etc as well.
Yeah those are good points. One odd thing is that deploying scouts makes almost no difference to other people's scouts, as they have no restriction against deploying near enemy models. As far as I can tell, there might not even be a restriction on setting them up in melee - though that's arguably fixed by the rules on how you can get into close combat.
Nothing else works like that, so far as I know. Most other "infiltrating" units have a rule saying they can't be within 9" of the enemy, but scouts don't. I think this kind of thing shows that getting rid of USRs was a really bad idea. Instead of just knowing that a unit can infiltrate, we have loads of people sneaking around the battlefield before the game starts, then appearing in all kinds of different ways once the game begins. Instead of learning one USR we have to learn loads of subtly-different rules.
2018/05/03 17:36:13
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
The second and third ones are easy and straight-forward.
For anti-tank, what would work? With RG, seems like anything that benefits from the CT makes sense. Do Lascannon Devs work?
Also, thoughts on using the Chapter Maser strat to buff my Captain who I will SftS up with the Aggressors to give them re-rolls. Or would the Captains Rites be sufficient generally?
Here is a tentative re-write, based on the input thus far:
Spoiler:
Raven Guard Battalion +5CP
HQ: Primaris Captain [StfS] MC ABR, Power sword Armour Indomitus [95]
Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/03 18:15:46
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
You'll want to do two to get the Cherub bonus twice. Then those saved points are an extra bullet catcher.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/03 19:33:34
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
You'll want to do two to get the Cherub bonus twice. Then those saved points are an extra bullet catcher.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
You'll want to do two to get the Cherub bonus twice. Then those saved points are an extra bullet catcher.
Elaborate.
You can use the Cherub to shoot the stratagem twice for one CP (it's in the latest FAQ). Since you only get one Cherub per Dev Squad, you want one HB in each so you can do this for two phases for max value.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 19:50:49
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2018/05/03 19:52:00
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
You'll want to do two to get the Cherub bonus twice. Then those saved points are an extra bullet catcher.
Elaborate.
You can use the Cherub to shoot the stratagem twice for one CP (it's in the latest FAQ). Since you only get one Cherub per Dev Squad, you want one HB in each so you can do this for two phases for max value.
What are people's thoughts on best warlord traits? Previously I was thinking, I'm running a gunline with many assault cannons, so Storm of Fire, duh. But, after a lot of list revisions I really don't get much out of Storm of Fire anymore. Lacannons and hellblasters are plenty high AP and are more likely to bump up against invulnerables. Best case it'd help me with 2-3 twin autos, 1 heavy bolter, and some HK missile shots at 3+ tanks.
Despite still running a gunline, I'm now thinking maybe run Imperium's Sword on my Captain to buff his counter charge smashing? Can I do even better with something else?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/04 01:01:17
2018/05/04 01:43:12
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
SoF is really good. I use the one that gets back CPs for my Smurfs.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/05/04 01:54:41
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Primark G wrote: SoF is really good. I use the one that gets back CPs for my Smurfs.
Yeah, if I had that CP one available, I'd use it.
Storm of Fire seems like an adequate fallback pick, but in my current list it's averaging about 1 useful -1AP per round, maybe 2 in round 1. That's not so hot. However, I'm also not running a list built around assault, so my hammer captain is probably only going to get that +1A on a charge once per game...
2018/05/04 02:02:54
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
2018/05/04 07:53:47
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Storm of fire works well if you can get killshot to work. The +1 to wound means that the additional AP procs on 5+ and if your running the dakka loadout (which is what I've been leaning towards) the additional AP on 2/4 damage weapons vs MCs or vehicles with 3+/5++ profiles is great.
As for dreadnoughts. I've been running double Ironclads in the past couple games, and they also die but they are always worth it. Running them as RG for the -1 to hit and they soak so much fire its absurd. If you get first turn you may also want to advance and pop smoke for a -2 to hit.
I've been wanting to try a list with nothing but T8+ Filled out with ironclads, vindicators, a knight, Big daddy Bray'arth in a drop pod, and a librarian with a JP and MoH.
2018/05/05 16:53:08
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
bonus points for throwing a chaplain dread in there with Armour Indomitus or the Salamanders Mantle
