8th ed CHAOS tactica

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**Zid**

weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

If your aim is tournaments, get used to running 3; in the us itc format major tournaments they have ruled that all demon prince data sheets are essentially the same (sane for things like leman russ variants and other models that skirted this rule) for the sake of the rule of 3.

That said, 3 should be more than enough, lol.

**lindsay40k**

weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

There’s been discussion on a ‘every DP’ list in the Chaos Daemons thread that generally concluded that it’s viable in an IK-rich meta, but not worth the investment if you want to take it to tourneys where TOs will be making rulings on whether the four named variants of DP constitute the same datasheet

**Zid**

lindsay40k wrote:
weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

There’s been discussion on a ‘every DP’ list in the Chaos Daemons thread that generally concluded that it’s viable in an IK-rich meta, but not worth the investment if you want to take it to tourneys where TOs will be making rulings on whether the four named variants of DP constitute the same datasheet

Bingo. And most TO's are following the rulings of BAO and the ATC.

Which makes sense, I believe it was an oversight when they instituted the rule of 3. Most stuff that can abuse the loophole aren't broken, lol.

**JNAProductions**

blackmage wrote:
weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.

Just a spot of math...

7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.

So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.

Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.

**Abaddon303**

My intention with the prince is to support a couple of rhinos with berserkers and chosen in. Is he still worth the extra 100 points if I could otherwise put a lord in one of the rhinos?
My current plan is 2 rhinos, one with 5 berserkers and 5 Combi bolter chosen the other with 6 berserkers and an exalted champ so I have room for a lord, or even 2 lords instead of the Prince.

**lindsay40k**

Hmm, DP’s footprint and reach is pretty useful. If you’ve got two Rhinos and only one of them carries a CL, then that’s the one getting shot at.

**Abaddon303**

That's very true. I guess it's the post initial strike movement that is the deal breaker. I'm a big fan of using the daemon shell strat on a pretty plain lord so I was trying to avoid dropping him but maybe the prince is the better choice

**ZergSmasher**

Abaddon303 wrote:
Ok so this is beyond my mathhammer so looking for opinions. Putting together a CC list to hit hard, baring in mind i have space in a rhino so delivery is reasonably covered, i was initially thinking i would add a winged deamon prince with malefic talons. now im thinking i might be better just going with a lord with the black mace and saving around 100 points.

chaos lord
T4 5W 3+ 4++
4 attacks
2+
S7 -2 2D (chance for MWs)

prince
T6 8W 3+ 5++
7 attacks
2+
S7 -2 2D

okay so the beff auras are the same, ignoring the black mace MWs they hit equally as hard but the prince hits more times. Also the prince is arguably more resilient with the T6 and 8W regardless of the lower inv.
But is the prince worth the 100 point difference? If i was planning for the prince to advance behind the rhinos anyway, why not stick a lord in the rhinos instead and save 100 points for something else?
What about taking 2 lords in one of the rhinos? (i have 4 spaces) obviously the second lord cant take the black mace but it does double the attacks and resilience. Be interested in your thoughts...

Personally if you want a cheap beatstick HQ and you haven't chosen which Legion you want, I'd say go Alpha Legion and take a Jump Pack Lord with the Blade of the Hydra. 93 points (I think) gets you 4+d3 S5 AP-2 D2 attacks. Plus the AL trait is probably the best one in the book. If you really want a killy DP, make it Slaanesh and take the Intoxicating Elixir (and go with Diabolic Strength as it's psychic power). 9 attacks at S10 AP-2 D2 if Diabolic Strength goes off. That's my go-to build for a Prince when I run CSM.

**blackmage**

JNAProductions wrote:
blackmage wrote:
weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.

Just a spot of math...

7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.

So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.

Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.

maybe if you play bit more and forget mathammer you will understand better, cheers.

**Abaddon303**

Wow

**JNAProductions**

Um... math hammer says it’s awesome. 21 wounds or a 44% chance of one-rounding a Knight is AWESOME.

I just like checking the exact odds

**Slayer-Fan123**

blackmage wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
blackmage wrote:
weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.

Just a spot of math...

7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.

So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.

Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.

maybe if you play bit more and forget mathammer you will understand better, cheers.

What does this even mean?

Calculating your odds against an Imperial Knight is kinda important.

**JNAProductions**

And again-they’re GOOD ODDS.

44%, and increasing a decent amount with a CP to spare is GOOD.

It’s not QUITE Captain Slam good, but he takes a lot more than one relic.

**Niiru**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
blackmage wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
blackmage wrote:
weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.

Just a spot of math...

7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.

So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.

Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.

maybe if you play bit more and forget mathammer you will understand better, cheers.

What does this even mean?

Calculating your odds against an Imperial Knight is kinda important.

Just ignore him, he always comes up with unhelpful comments like this. I put him on my ignore list a while ago and this tactica thread has been a much nicer place since!

The DP I have just finished painting has been converted into carrying a big big axe, simply because I wanted a super killy daemon prince and the Skullreaver seemed like one of the best available. Though I do also plan to have another prince in my list... not sure yet if it'll be a Death Guard one or a Vanilla Slaanesh / Elixir one...

**JNAProductions**

Ignore Blackmage, or ignore me?

I feel like math is good

**Niiru**

JNAProductions wrote:
Ignore Blackmage, or ignore me?

I feel like math is good

Not you, your math was great, hence me agreeing with you and having a Skullreaver of my own haha.

**barboggo**

blackmage wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
blackmage wrote:
weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.

Just a spot of math...

7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.

So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.

Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.

maybe if you play bit more and forget mathammer you will understand better, cheers.

Bro, I like your opinions. But he's agreeing with you here, DP's are indeed awesome.

**Sokhar**

JNAProductions wrote:
blackmage wrote:
weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?

dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.

Just a spot of math...

7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.

So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.

Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.

Give the Skullreaver prince the Legendary Fighter warlord trait. Get that 24 wound average round of combat! ;-)

**barboggo**

Drop him in with a bomb of 30 bloodletters and that knight is dead for sure. Khorne units are practically designed for killing knights.

**Niiru**

Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?

Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.

Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?

I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...

Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.

**lindsay40k**

I’m currently working on a second quintet of Khonrnate Warp Talons, and I can only see myself having them rendezvous with Karanak to try to pull off their charging trick in gimmicky friendly context. Even reserving a CRR for a 1-6 or 2-5 split makes the odds unacceptably volatile for any kind of competitive play.

And that’s coming from someone who’s mucking around with Fiends of Slaanesh and Maulerfiends as a niche list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did take WTs when they could Warptime on arrival, whereupon they were an utterly terrifying wrecking ball and overwhelming counter to Aggressors, but now they’re possibly even worse than their original incarnation - which could at least make a risky close landing to try to get the charge off

**Niiru**

lindsay40k wrote:
I’m currently working on a second quintet of Khonrnate Warp Talons, and I can only see myself having them rendezvous with Karanak to try to pull off their charging trick in gimmicky friendly context. Even reserving a CRR for a 1-6 or 2-5 split makes the odds unacceptably volatile for any kind of competitive play.

And that’s coming from someone who’s mucking around with Fiends of Slaanesh and Maulerfiends as a niche list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did take WTs when they could Warptime on arrival, whereupon they were an utterly terrifying wrecking ball and overwhelming counter to Aggressors, but now they’re possibly even worse than their original incarnation - which could at least make a risky close landing to try to get the charge off

So would you say that raptors have a better role to play? Or are both units currently garbage? I have considered having a unit of one or the other and just starting it on the table, using it as a distraction carnifex of sorts as well as a shield for princes. Or alpha legion forward operatives them.

**Abaddon303**

I think raptors are good only to drop in turn three on or near an uncontested objective in cover and try to survive. I tend to give them a couple of plasmas for the range if I can spare the points...

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?

Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.

Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?

I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...

Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.

Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.

Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?

**Niiru**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?

Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.

Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?

I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...

Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.

Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.

Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?

Haha, read my post a littler closer, you'll notice that I specifically asked the question because I might have the Locus of Rage on my Daemon HQ's. The reason I started by asking about the Icon of Wrath is because it's the same buff.

My CSM detachment will be... I'm not sure actually. Alpha Legion or Death Guard. But obviously if I take Raptors or Talons, they can't be Death Guard. And they wouldn't benefit much from Alpha either.

**lindsay40k**

I wanted Raptors and Warp Talons to work, but they have been nerfed hard and Raptors seem to have a specific niche of drop in on turn 3, avoid eye contact with everybody, maybe pounce on a 10 GEQ unit camping on an objective & make spooky noises at them until they go away. Nurgle Icon isn't a terrible idea on them, but this could be throwing good money after bad... there's an ultra-niche Night Lords build that will be utterly useless against Tyranids and Orks and Abaddon/Guilliman/IW castles

**Zid**

I wanted to try nurgle warp talons myself in an epidemus build, but for the cost they dont really do much that something else cant do better. Raptors are interesting with meltas, but melta isnt that amazing currently, and still id rather spend points on something else.

**Barnie25**

How good is a Black Legion Spearhead Detachment with Abby, do people run them with Predators, Vindicators or are Forgefiends also something?

I am looking for fun ways to use the Abaddon model I have. I like the Forgefiend models the best but I don't know if its to expensive for what it does. The Predator en Vindicators bring Strategem bonuses.

Alternatively 3 squads of Obliterators might also work. The rest of my list is mostly DG DP's and Bloat Drones.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Niiru wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?

Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.

Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?

I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...

Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.

Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.

Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?

Haha, read my post a littler closer, you'll notice that I specifically asked the question because I might have the Locus of Rage on my Daemon HQ's. The reason I started by asking about the Icon of Wrath is because it's the same buff.

My CSM detachment will be... I'm not sure actually. Alpha Legion or Death Guard. But obviously if I take Raptors or Talons, they can't be Death Guard. And they wouldn't benefit much from Alpha either.

Ahh okay I see it now. I believe that puts them at a 58% chance at getting the charge from 9" which isn't too bad as long as you bring more then 1 unit it could be a good way to avoid overwatch from armies.

Also, Alpha Legion would benefit as you get a -1 to hit outside of 12 inchs which means plasma that isn't close isn't OCing and Plasma that is close can be handled by infiltrating AL units.

Personally, I don't run WTs all that much when I do I don't bother with Deepstriking them since Warp Time puts them at 24" before they charge coupled with prescience and a few other spells they are more then able to do what I need them to do usually.

**Primortus**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?

Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.

Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?

I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...

Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.

Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.

Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?

Haha, read my post a littler closer, you'll notice that I specifically asked the question because I might have the Locus of Rage on my Daemon HQ's. The reason I started by asking about the Icon of Wrath is because it's the same buff.

My CSM detachment will be... I'm not sure actually. Alpha Legion or Death Guard. But obviously if I take Raptors or Talons, they can't be Death Guard. And they wouldn't benefit much from Alpha either.

Ahh okay I see it now. I believe that puts them at a 58% chance at getting the charge from 9" which isn't too bad as long as you bring more then 1 unit it could be a good way to avoid overwatch from armies.

Also, Alpha Legion would benefit as you get a -1 to hit outside of 12 inchs which means plasma that isn't close isn't OCing and Plasma that is close can be handled by infiltrating AL units.

Personally, I don't run WTs all that much when I do I bother with Deepstriking them since Warp Time puts them at 24" before they charge coupled with prescience and a few other spells they are more then able to do what I need them to do usually.

Locus of rage does affect warp talons, everything from the daemon codex does except for the stratagems.

Also the chance of making a 9 inch charge is 25% or 44% with rerolls, not 58%