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 Raichase wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

I’ve had good results with my Chosen Plasma squad. Thing is, that’s putting Plasma in hands that I don’t mind losing to an overheat. Multiple minuses to hit some MVP unit? I may well take the deaths in exchange for deleting a threat.

A slight aside on this point, any reason you're going with Chosen for your plasma over Havocs? I'm musing on how to build and outfit my Chosen and keep coming back to the fact that, for four special weapons, Havocs come in cheaper. I mean the Chosen have a better Ld and an extra attack (with the option to take a free chainsword for another one), but if you're shooting for a plasma death squad, they're likely going to be a target, so keeping them cheap and cheerful is what holds me back. Is it because of competition for the heavy slots from things like Obliterators, Predators etc?

One reason might be that you can take 6 chosen and have 5x plasmagun and 1x combi-plasma, which I think is the strongest concentration of plasma available outside of terminator squads.

Also they can take a free chainsword and have 3 attacks each, so they're pretty nasty even if they get charged. Which when you're staying at 12" range for rapid fire, you're likely to get charged. Or maybe you prefer to fire plasma at a unit of elites, and then charge some infantry, doing double damage against the enemy in one turn. (Shame DG can't take chosen for 18" rapid fire, but i guess it would be too good).

Havocs are poor in melee, and so I would say are better with longer range weapons like heavy bolters. Just keep pumping bullets into the enemy and trying to stay away from charges.

But that's just what I'm thinking, not sure how correct it is.

Id personally take a power sword or power mace with my chosen, 33 PPM is still expensive but then it makes them super nasty in both melee and ranged.

 Raichase wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

I’ve had good results with my Chosen Plasma squad. Thing is, that’s putting Plasma in hands that I don’t mind losing to an overheat. Multiple minuses to hit some MVP unit? I may well take the deaths in exchange for deleting a threat.

A slight aside on this point, any reason you're going with Chosen for your plasma over Havocs? I'm musing on how to build and outfit my Chosen and keep coming back to the fact that, for four special weapons, Havocs come in cheaper. I mean the Chosen have a better Ld and an extra attack (with the option to take a free chainsword for another one), but if you're shooting for a plasma death squad, they're likely going to be a target, so keeping them cheap and cheerful is what holds me back. Is it because of competition for the heavy slots from things like Obliterators, Predators etc?

I have a bunch of plasma guys but I like my combi-plasma minis, I did them us as Breachers and I don't mind the handful of points

Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Have to say, running a 6-man combi-bolter squad does have its temptations.

Edit: Shame that the AL infiltrate stratagem is no more, deesptriking cheap combi bolters might have been good. they'd need a transport now.

Niiru wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Have to say, running a 6-man combi-bolter squad does have its temptations.

Edit: Shame that the AL infiltrate stratagem is no more, deesptriking cheap combi bolters might have been good. they'd need a transport now.

I think the Termite Drill is the answer to that problem for Chosen. Only issue is for Berserker Marines, but luckily they have that reroll charge banner to rely on.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Have to say, running a 6-man combi-bolter squad does have its temptations.

Edit: Shame that the AL infiltrate stratagem is no more, deesptriking cheap combi bolters might have been good. they'd need a transport now.

I think the Termite Drill is the answer to that problem for Chosen. Only issue is for Berserker Marines, but luckily they have that reroll charge banner to rely on.

Even more expensive than a rhino though. Might be worth the points, but I don't like the model and havent come up with a suitable conversion/ counts as yet.

Niiru wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Have to say, running a 6-man combi-bolter squad does have its temptations.

Edit: Shame that the AL infiltrate stratagem is no more, deesptriking cheap combi bolters might have been good. they'd need a transport now.

It just says can't move within 9", right? You can still infiltrate turn 1 with them quite close (let's say 16 inches to avoid counter-charges if you go second?) and then blast away with them after moving into rapid fire range.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Have to say, running a 6-man combi-bolter squad does have its temptations.

Edit: Shame that the AL infiltrate stratagem is no more, deesptriking cheap combi bolters might have been good. they'd need a transport now.

It just says can't move within 9", right? You can still infiltrate turn 1 with them quite close (let's say 16 inches to avoid counter-charges if you go second?) and then blast away with them after moving into rapid fire range.

What, the AL stratagem? It's totally gone now, it's not an infiltrate. It's a 9" scout move from your deployment, which for 1CP on a fragile infantry unit is a garbage waste of CP.

Niiru wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Have to say, running a 6-man combi-bolter squad does have its temptations.

Edit: Shame that the AL infiltrate stratagem is no more, deesptriking cheap combi bolters might have been good. they'd need a transport now.

It just says can't move within 9", right? You can still infiltrate turn 1 with them quite close (let's say 16 inches to avoid counter-charges if you go second?) and then blast away with them after moving into rapid fire range.

What, the AL stratagem? It's totally gone now, it's not an infiltrate. It's a 9" scout move from your deployment, which for 1CP on a fragile infantry unit is a garbage waste of CP.

Weird! Didnt even notice that the few times I read the FAQ.

Remember: Chaos Marines aren't allowed to have anything good stick around for long. Poor people decided they didn't want to learn to defend themselves from Berserker drops.

Heaven forbid, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Point of order: a Chosen squad can only have five combi-weapons - four on the squaddies and one on the champion. (An additional squaddie can have a standard special weapon.) So, dropping two squads out a Rhino or Dreadclaw won't mean compromising on double-tap dakka. (Dreadclaw's a bit pricey for such a purpose, though.)

Hobby tip: all those Berzerker pistol arms we threw in our bits boxes? Snip away the guns and switch in bolters - dual wield is WYSIWYG enough, and no need to scrawl through bitz merchants for combi-bolters.

Hey that's a cool idea, I love the thought of dual wielding bolter chosen

 lindsay40k wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Doesn't seem right giving havocs plasma. They always seem like they should be long ranged heavy weapons. Plus chosen feel like they have a little more clout if they do get caught up in melee which suits the role of having them as midfield fire support

6 dudes with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords does pretty cool actually.

Point of order: a Chosen squad can only have five combi-weapons - four on the squaddies and one on the champion. (An additional squaddie can have a standard special weapon.) So, dropping two squads out a Rhino or Dreadclaw won't mean compromising on double-tap dakka. (Dreadclaw's a bit pricey for such a purpose, though.)

Hobby tip: all those Berzerker pistol arms we threw in our bits boxes? Snip away the guns and switch in bolters - dual wield is WYSIWYG enough, and no need to scrawl through bitz merchants for combi-bolters.

Oh dear I've been playing SUPER illegally. Replace with a Flamer I guess but Flamers suck...

Silly me never thought of existing models with combi-plasma. I must admit the idea of a squad with 5 plasma guns and a combi-plasma on the champion with the free chainswords does sound like a tempting idea.

Given the damage output in this edition, I'm super keen to try the cheap and cheerful combi-bolter/chainsword combo though on a squad of 5 - plenty of dakka to clear the chaff (like enemy cultists) whilst maintaining a lot of dice to throw if you're charged/charging the remains. Plus, given that Chosen seem slightly overpriced for how easily they die (although that covers a lot of the Elite slots), I cringe at the idea of putting too much expensive gear on them only to have them shot off the board like common CSMs.

Niiru wrote:


Have to say, running a 6-man combi-bolter squad does have its temptations.

Edit: Shame that the AL infiltrate stratagem is no more, deesptriking cheap combi bolters might have been good. they'd need a transport now.

The problem I have always had with Chosen built around Combi-Bolters is they have to compete with Noise Marines for a role, and Noise Marines have a lot of advantages over the Chosen. Sonic Blasters are arguably better than Combi Bolters, since they are fully effective up to 24 inches, and they ignore cover which can frequently give them better penetration- especially when shooting at infantry. The Noise Champ also can strap on extra guns, and pack a Combi Bolter and a Sonic Blaster and a 10 pt Doom Siren (because reasons). Add to that the Noise Marines also have 2 attacks base, and the Endless Cacophony ability when they die, they are significantly better mid field shooters than Combi Bolter Chosen.

That said, no Noise Marines in a World Eaters detachment, and you may not like them for personal reasons. But Chosen seem like they really need a special weapon (probably plasma) to differentiate from Noise Marines.

Ive used Chosen to pretty great effect with combi/sword combo. 5 of them is 90 points, which is the highest ampunt of bolter shots per point in thr CSM codex. 90 points nets you a total of 20 shots in 12". 100 points of Bikers nets you 18 shots, and 100 points of Noiz Boiz only gets you 15.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Ive used Chosen to pretty great effect with combi/sword combo. 5 of them is 90 points, which is the highest amount of bolter shots per point in thr CSM codex. 90 points nets you a total of 20 shots in 12". 100 points of Bikers nets you 18 shots, and 100 points of Noiz Boiz only gets you 15.

Yes, but you have to look at the comparative benefits as well.

1) Noiz Boys actually have more shots than that. 4 Guys with Sonic Blasters and a Champ with a Sonic Blaster and a Combi Bolter is 97 points. So they are at 17 shots out to 24, and 19 shots within 12. You also have to keep in mind they are far more effective than the chosen vs targets either outside 12 inches, or against a target in cover as substantially all of their guns ignore cover saves. Lets also not forget that the Noise Marines will likely outpace the chosen in rate of fire as they die off, since they will get to make retaliation shots on death.

2) Bikers offer a lot more in addition to bolter shots, and they still put out a respectable amount of bolter shots. First, Bikers are primarily taken for their mobility, and they are a *lot* faster than Chosen. So they don't really need to work or plan as much to get in range to start shooting. Its also worth noting that most people use bikers to deliver special weapons. this is common in chosen too, but once again the superior speed of bikers (14 inch move and 6 inch run) makes it much easier to bring those weapons to bear against appropriate targets. It also makes bikers better for grabbing objectives, and the Bikers have 8 wounds at toughness 5 compared to the Chosen who have 5 wounds at toughness 4.

If all I cared about was highest amount of bolter shots per point in a vaacum, I could buy it. I'm not saying that Chosen with combi-bolters are bad, I'm just saying they don't really compare favorably to Noise Marines or Bikers due to the superior flexibility those units offer in addition to small arms fire.

Noise Marines also need to be Slaanesh. Now yes, Slaanesh is THE best choice due to the shoot again strat, but ive found that bringing combi-chosen in a Khorne face smash list actually synergizes super well. Against Guard theyve proven to be well worth their points in clearing away some bubblewrap for my Zerkers.

And if you actually make them WE, have fun with those 4 attacks per model on top of the 4 shots per model.

The way i used my chosen so far was with flamers and swords.
Back in the good old days of the alpha legion stratagem I could get them close enough to the enemy lines to deliver a hell lot of dakka and charge something.
Sadly a MSU body is just not strong enough and without first turn they usually bit the dust; as my friends became more competaive i stopped using them.
Sadly even then they are just a gimmick unit. Flamer sword anti horde was the only thing i could think off.

But hey, at least the models are nice

Iron Warriors combi-bolter Chosen ignore Cover like the Noise Marines, though they don't get to shoot when they die. That's a cool rule.

I really like those old guitar Noise Marines!

 Malathrim wrote:
Iron Warriors combi-bolter Chosen ignore Cover like the Noise Marines, though they don't get to shoot when they die. That's a cool rule.

I really like those old guitar Noise Marines!

You COULD have Iron Warriors Noise Bois...

Wait can a noise champion really take a blaster, siren and a combi bolter? And fire all of them??

Yes he indeed can.
he can take CPlasma instead of the CBolter to make him a real dakka dealer.

AND
If music of the Apocalypse trigger outside of the shooting phase your dudes can target enemy characters, so feel free to unload all your plasma and nades on them

You could walk your Champion and his companions with a Fabius Bile towards the enemies warlord, then at the end of the opponets movement phase use fabuis to kill your own guys and aim all of the resulting dakka at a character.
(if you compare your units points costs to the target, its usually a bad deal though - as well as being really anal with the rules)
If your units die during the Melee Phase you will even be able to trigger DTTFE with your overcharged plasma shots and nades (though i am not a 100% sure if this works)

Abaddon303 wrote:
Wait can a noise champion really take a blaster, siren and a combi bolter? And fire all of them??

Yes, this is absolutely Legal: The only condition for a siren is that the model is a champion.
The Blaster replaces the bolter.
The bolt Pistol can be exchanged for a weapon of the list for champions which include combi bolters.

As a sidenote: why would you run noise marines in an iron warriors list when you allready got the ignore cover benefit? You can achieve similar or better dakka with the right equipped havocs.

Edit:
It seems a distant relative ninjaed me. How rude of you.

I was thinking of whether a mechanized army might work now, again because of the new prepared positions stratagem giving army wise +1 cover save to even vehicles.

So the idea is to have 5 Rhino with double combi bolters and min 5 to 6 man Berserkers inside (champ powerfist). Then have a fire base made up of 3 Predator tanks and a cheap chaos lord to give reroll 1 hit. And finally round it up with a Chaos lord on a bike with burning talisman and some combi bolter bikes.

I would put havoc launchers on all three predators and heavy bolter sponsons too. The idea is to have the triple predator tanks serve as a fire magnet. In any case, if I go second, all the Rhinos, bikes and Predators are at 2+ save.

So, the 5 Rhinos will charge up the board and pop smoke. The predators distract, and the bikes will shoot all those combis into chaff. Second turn, all the berserkers unload, and I will add any remaining combi bolter firing from surviving Rhinos to the bikes and tank fire to clear the chaff so that the Berserkers have the free space to charge into what truly needs to die.

With 5 Rhinos and 3 tanks, I am banking on having so much armor the opponent simply can't clear enough of them before I am upon him. The chaff clearing ability of the army is not to be sniffed at either. Between double combis on all the Rhinos and bikes, the havoc launchers and heavy bolters on the tanks, and the 5 Zerker champions also using a combi bolter, I estimate I can fire 80 to 100 shots at double tap range.

If I go first, I get to use killshot and make my predator tanks really threatening. This alone will probably ensure they get focused over my Rhinos and so I should be able to get a lot of zerkers up the field into battle.

A minimum zerker squad is relatively ok in points. Thats why I put my lord on a bike instead of inside a Rhino, which would just solidify it as a target. All the units including the predators are less than 170 points, so there are no super juicy targets to focus fire on.

What do you think? Given so many zerkers, I would go world eaters army. unless you all have better suggestions.

I would try and use Kharn for the Predators if you can make it work. The full rerolls would really help especially with all the negative modifiers out there.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I was thinking of whether a mechanized army might work now, again because of the new prepared positions stratagem giving army wise +1 cover save to even vehicles.

So the idea is to have 5 Rhino with double combi bolters and min 5 to 6 man Berserkers inside (champ powerfist). Then have a fire base made up of 3 Predator tanks and a cheap chaos lord to give reroll 1 hit. And finally round it up with a Chaos lord on a bike with burning talisman and some combi bolter bikes.

I would put havoc launchers on all three predators and heavy bolter sponsons too. The idea is to have the triple predator tanks serve as a fire magnet. In any case, if I go second, all the Rhinos, bikes and Predators are at 2+ save.

So, the 5 Rhinos will charge up the board and pop smoke. The predators distract, and the bikes will shoot all those combis into chaff. Second turn, all the berserkers unload, and I will add any remaining combi bolter firing from surviving Rhinos to the bikes and tank fire to clear the chaff so that the Berserkers have the free space to charge into what truly needs to die.

With 5 Rhinos and 3 tanks, I am banking on having so much armor the opponent simply can't clear enough of them before I am upon him. The chaff clearing ability of the army is not to be sniffed at either. Between double combis on all the Rhinos and bikes, the havoc launchers and heavy bolters on the tanks, and the 5 Zerker champions also using a combi bolter, I estimate I can fire 80 to 100 shots at double tap range.

If I go first, I get to use killshot and make my predator tanks really threatening. This alone will probably ensure they get focused over my Rhinos and so I should be able to get a lot of zerkers up the field into battle.

A minimum zerker squad is relatively ok in points. Thats why I put my lord on a bike instead of inside a Rhino, which would just solidify it as a target. All the units including the predators are less than 170 points, so there are no super juicy targets to focus fire on.

What do you think? Given so many zerkers, I would go world eaters army. unless you all have better suggestions.

First off;if you want so many zerkers you need to be WE, so there's not even a competition.

Secondly: 5 Rhinos certainly will split the fire well but still are over 400pts alone for metal bawkses with combi bolters. Granted they will be tougher T1 but everything after will be very much lucky. Additionally if someone wants you dead turn 1 he will still be able to do this.

Minimum Zerkers are not bad, but glasscanonny, they clear out most infantry with sheere volume of attacks , especially WE ones, but afterwards they will die like flies.

Predators are, how to put it, not my cup of tea. On the other hand they got cheaper in CA, well the cannon atleast, but i still feel they are quite expensive for what they can and can't do, aswell as certainly not tough.

Bikers are, well decent, so long people don't start climbing buildings and if you don't go overboard on them since they are quite pts intensive. Also Chaos Biker Lords are a Index only unit that means only INdex Equipment and rules avilable, so i am unsure if you are allowed to give him a Talisman.

Kharn is 100% fight only. No rerollin shots.