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 Sersi wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:
Considering that their is a written rule, not just data slates, in the Index that says for example Emperor's Children can take Noise Marines as troops that rule either is in the EC children section or still counts.

The could of not separated the data slates like they did in index which is stupid if they don't have a written two sentences that mark bezerker horde or masters of kakophoni and so on.

Knowing GW they could of probably overlooked that and will have to FAQ it. Hopefully on Saturday as we are a few weeks out from like NOVA here and such.

Edit:

Looked the FLG link above. It is in the comments but he says you can still take cult units as troops for your legion.

Can you quote what your referencing in the Frontline link. I see mention of using old data slates for specific option if you have the model. But nothing from Reecius explicitly saying cults can be taken as troops in the comments. I even directly asked but haven't gotten a reply yet.

Summoning is very good. The top Daemon player at the BAO had 600 pts of his list in his summoning pool. I often summon in a big unit of Bloodletters in my faux-KDK army and they are extremely good. And yeah, Cult Legions can still take them as troops.

ctrl F type in the above to confirm

Thanks for that. I do wonder if Reecius is quoting from the codex though; or going off the index. Since asked both the guys from "Winter SEO" and "Forge the Narrative" and both said there was no mention of taking cults as troops in the codex.

Can Noise Marines and Berserkers still be taken as troops by their legions?

Winter SEO:

They are an elite slot now. The legion thing does not change that.

Can World Eaters and Emperor's Children still take cult units as troops?

Forge The Narrative:
.
They can't. But... the detachments in the main rule book make this less of a hurdle.

I don't know really. It doesn't sound like the codex makes them troops but you can use the entry in the Chaos Index. This is going to take an FAQ for clarity.

Pretty sure Reecius is referring to blood letters there, not realizing that they then lose LT.

 Sersi wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:
Considering that their is a written rule, not just data slates, in the Index that says for example Emperor's Children can take Noise Marines as troops that rule either is in the EC children section or still counts.

The could of not separated the data slates like they did in index which is stupid if they don't have a written two sentences that mark bezerker horde or masters of kakophoni and so on.

Knowing GW they could of probably overlooked that and will have to FAQ it. Hopefully on Saturday as we are a few weeks out from like NOVA here and such.

Edit:

Looked the FLG link above. It is in the comments but he says you can still take cult units as troops for your legion.

Can you quote what your referencing in the Frontline link. I see mention of using old data slates for specific option if you have the model. But nothing from Reecius explicitly saying cults can be taken as troops in the comments. I even directly asked but haven't gotten a reply yet.

Summoning is very good. The top Daemon player at the BAO had 600 pts of his list in his summoning pool. I often summon in a big unit of Bloodletters in my faux-KDK army and they are extremely good. And yeah, Cult Legions can still take them as troops.

ctrl F type in the above to confirm

Thanks for that. I do wonder if Reecius is quoting from the codex though; or going off the index. Since asked both the guys from "Winter SEO" and "Forge the Narrative" and both said there was no mention of taking cults as troops in the codex.

Can Noise Marines and Berserkers still be taken as troops by their legions?

Winter SEO:

They are an elite slot now. The legion thing does not change that.

Can World Eaters and Emperor's Children still take cult units as troops?

Forge The Narrative:
.
They can't. But... the detachments in the main rule book make this less of a hurdle.

I don't know really. It doesn't sound like the codex makes them troops but you can use the entry in the Chaos Index. This is going to take an FAQ for clarity.

According to the frontline gaming stream, Berserkers and Noise Marines become troops if your entire army has the same mark of the slaanesh.

The Frontline youtube channel or podcast?

 Sersi wrote:
The Frontline youtube channel or podcast?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/165157050 (start at 34.55) Noise marines and Berserkers can be taken as troops

Thank you. Well good enough; they would know.

Hmmm, CSM has a very mean deep strike phase now. Oddly enough, the meanest is not from Black legion, but from other legions.

1. Alpha legion can infiltrate forward one unit (maybe even more).

2. Slannash termi drop with that double fire stratagem is really fierce.

3. Now obliterators are arguably as good as Havocs. And these can be teleported in as well.

4. This is not even considering the Raptor or warp talon drops that Night lords can bring in.

The issue now is, we have to keep as many units on the board as in reserve. And even if we put cheap cultist units on the board to fill up that requirement, we still need to have a fair number of such units on the board. I mean, if we want to drop oblits, termis, raptors, characters ... then consider how many cultist units we need on the board... lol

Frontline gaming haven't said anything about Emperor's children at all perhaps they are the worst legion despite slaanesh being so good ?

Nothing wrong with Emperor's Children. Slanaash is the go to for Shooty CSM this edition.

Hmmm, about the Alpha legion's stratagem of infiltration forward unit to 9 inches. Someone told me this can be done with several units instead of one? Also, are such units considered part of reserve of part of deployment on the board or with the units in reserve (for deep strike).

So, if I have 6 units to deploy as forward operatives and 6 in deep strike. Will that fufill the requirement of half my units in reserve? Or will this be seen as having 12 units in reserve?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Nothing wrong with Emperor's Children. Slanaash is the go to for Shooty CSM this edition.

Hmmm, about the Alpha legion's stratagem of infiltration forward unit to 9 inches. Someone told me this can be done with several units instead of one? Also, are such units considered part of reserve of part of deployment on the board or with the units in reserve (for deep strike).

So, if I have 6 units to deploy as forward operatives and 6 in deep strike. Will that fufill the requirement of half my units in reserve? Or will this be seen as having 12 units in reserve?

The Stratagem lets you put them in "Concealment" when you deploy them and then "deep strike" them before the first turn beginns, so im pretty sure "in concealment" counts towards being in reserve.

It counts as being in reserve, also right now you can use it multiple times since i happens before the game starts

 Rydria wrote:
Frontline gaming haven't said anything about Emperor's children at all perhaps they are the worst legion despite slaanesh being so good ?

It was odd that they basically ignored the Emperor's Children while they gushed about taking Slaaneshi stuff in every other Legion. They did mention how they were the most evil bad guys in the fluff. I suppose that's something. Being sick enough to disgust even Night Lord's is pretty messed up.

EC and Slaanesh Marines in general are arguably the strongest sub-faction in CSM right now.

If any one God/legion got the shaft, I'd say it's probably Nurgle. Their units are tough but their offensive power seems pretty gakky.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
EC and Slaanesh Marines in general are arguably the strongest sub-faction in CSM right now.

If any one God/legion got the shaft, I'd say it's probably Nurgle. Their units are tough but their offensive power seems pretty gakky.

Plague Marines are on the upswing in the codex with half a page's worth of brand new weapon options, and it's only going to get better when the DG codex comes out. I think there'll be plenty of reason to run Death Guard when the time comes.

Is DG coming put before or after Grey Knights? For some reason I thought it was the very next book to come out, but then chaos Space Marines came out and now there's talk about grey Knights as well.

DG is coming out after the twin-release of CSM and Grey Knights. Probably early/mid September, but that's just a guess.

Arachnofiend wrote:
DG is coming out after the twin-release of CSM and Grey Knights. Probably early/mid September, but that's just a guess.

Seems about right. The week after CSM/GK will probably be GH2 for AoS.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Have you noticed how strong the Obliterators are now? They should cost like a full laser predator, but if you do the math, they shoot better against any target. With the teleportarium you avoid the apha strike predators suffers, and being 3 models, is so easy to put them in cover... and the slannesh stratagem, my god.

Thanks! Your comment made me take a look at them again. Wow... 4 shots per Obliterator now really might make a difference. Their firepower is effectively doubled now from before. Their weakness and strength is that they are a three wound model, so they are a really good target for stuff like lascannons, missile launchers. But consider this, one lascannon Havoc shoot once, while an Obliterator shoots 4 times. Even if you end up with str7, ap -1 shots, its still 4 shots versus the havoc's one shot. And the difference in cost is smaller than it looks. A 5 man squad of Havocs with lascannons cost 165 points and fires 4 shots. A 3 man Obliterator costs 195 points and fires 12 shots! Its just 30 more points. Would you mind paying 30 more points for 8 more shots (admittedly of variable quality lol).

And like what Darkly Dreaming said, with teleportarium you are assured to at least get one round of shooting, and the Slannesh stratagem on them is sick. Also, they are considered Infantry, so they benefit from legion traits. An Alpha legion obliterator gets a -1 to hit when you try and shoot it from over 12 inches away. An Iron warrior obliterator ignores cover when shooting.

U welcome! Consider also that in cover they get 1+ save, so you still save lascannons at 4+!

Challenge!

Which faction can make the most powerful non-special character warlord?

Gibs55 wrote:
Challenge!

Which faction can make the most powerful non-special character warlord?

I think it depends on how you see it. Powerful, but need to also get into combat. Else will just get shot to death.

My candidates:

Juggerlord with either axe of biting fury or Talisman of burning blood plus WE warlord trait. (is higher strength attacks and -AP more important, or ability to attack after charging).

Jump pack Nightlord character with its relic and warlord trait is very good too

Slanaash flying Daemonprince with drugs is also really good.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
Challenge!

Which faction can make the most powerful non-special character warlord?

I think it depends on how you see it. Powerful, but need to also get into combat. Else will just get shot to death.

My candidates:

Juggerlord with either axe of biting fury or Talisman of burning blood plus WE warlord trait. (is higher strength attacks and -AP more important, or ability to attack after charging).

Jump pack Nightlord character with its relic and warlord trait is very good too

Slanaash flying Daemonprince with drugs is also really good.

Powerful is subjective on purpose, everyone sees it differently so really just keen to see what crazy ideas people have.

Well, if we are looking for raw damage we are probably looking at a demon prince, so the unique weapons don't help. It'd probably be demon prince of slaanesh with intoxicating elixir as your base. The EC warlord trait would be a natural fit from there, works best on a demon prince. The generic warlord traits are also good for building a CC beast though, so honestly this build works for most legions, and CT can't effect princes unless something changed. Which I guess means alpha legion could run said demon prince and not worry if he dies. The iron warrior relic is also worth considering if you think your DP is fine on offensive and needs some defense instead.

Ok,

Its been a few days and LOTS to catch up on!

I now need to wrap my head around the battalions etc and how to incorporate my Giant Chaos Spawn into a DG army... Since they are not DG.

Also, I was clicks away from buying a Twin butcher Levi! But... I'm so drawn towards those Slan Oblits! My good god! 24 S8 (ave) D2 Ap-2 shots. Thats a whole lot of damage.

Id rather that over the Plasma termies!

Plus, make them alpha for that -1 and <3<3<3


So much thinking :( Too much beer :(

Just summon the spawn. Easy.

Summoning works, or just a spearhead detachment with a Maelific Lord filling hq

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
Challenge!

Which faction can make the most powerful non-special character warlord?

I think it depends on how you see it. Powerful, but need to also get into combat. Else will just get shot to death.

My candidates:

Juggerlord with either axe of biting fury or Talisman of burning blood plus WE warlord trait. (is higher strength attacks and -AP more important, or ability to attack after charging).

Jump pack Nightlord character with its relic and warlord trait is very good too

Slanaash flying Daemonprince with drugs is also really good.

Jugger lord can't climb up levels or go through walls this makes him kind of easy for other characters or support units (devs) to avoid IMO. I think jump packs or terminator armor are the best mobility platforms now.

Said it before, but for the points black legion can make a pretty baller assassin with their specific WL trait and the murdersword. Just put it on a MoK jump pack lord and cast prescience and chain attacks that cause mortal wounds, hit them with a demon shell on the way in lol.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
EC and Slaanesh Marines in general are arguably the strongest sub-faction in CSM right now.

If any one God/legion got the shaft, I'd say it's probably Nurgle. Their units are tough but their offensive power seems pretty gakky.

Khorne is the worst one.

This edition is all about shooting. More so then previous. Slaanesh has really good strats and abilities

Tzeench has good magic, good invulns, and shooty

Nurgle is relislent, has descent shooting and lots of rerolls to wound. Plus Pox walkers are great screening fodder. they will also get the next book id guess mid Sept or early Sept

Khorne really doesent have much. Yea, great in CC but their deamons are trash. Got to summon them, or run them up the board with T3 and 5++. Their big characters die easy. Their one good one, Uraka the Warfiend doesent have legion keyword so he breaks your world eaters unless a separate detachment. In short, you are bringing a knife to a gun fight

Khorne definitely isn't trash once you see someone infiltrate 20+ berserkers 9+ inch then move to be within 3 inch away on turn 1 let me know what happens.

Well yeah Khorne daemons are trash, I don't think anyone would dispute that.

Slaanesh daemons aren't far behind in that metric.

I don't see how bloodletters are trash, they are the most cost efficient power swords in the game.

There big weakness is getting shot which can be negated by either summoning them within 9 inch then having them pull off a 8 inch charge (instruments) where they will slaughter what ever they charged.

Or by using a wave tactics using fast units/deep striking units that provide a significant threat and forcing your opponent to deal with those first.

The above tactics work for both khorne and slaanesh though the later works better for slaanesh due to being a bit faster.

Tzeentch marines are less awesome this edition than they used to be. Inferno bolters used to negate Space Marine saves entirely, not merely decrease them by 2 to a reasonable 5+.

Likewise, if most of the guns including Plasma have been nerfed in AP value, those 3+ saves are still pretty good. Bolter and Heavy Bolter fire give Space Marines and Tzeentch Rubrics no better save while Rubrics are only better against -2, -3, -4 weapons. et with how few -2s there are, it's mostly that they tank Plasmas and Lascannons... except those weapons don't deal 1 dmg and can ignore your +1 save bonus, so you get a 5+ invulnerable. Why are you shooting these things at infantry anyway? Small arms spam kills them just as easily as every other Space Marine.

Overall they're pretty costly and only slightly more tanky than normal marines in practice with weapons that pale compared to those hellblasters. Trying to wound most things on a 4+ is not very deadly. After playing several tournaments, it's also remarkable how much 4+ invulnerable is out there and leaves these guys feeling underwhelming. The Scarabs are sweet though purely because they have a better reaper cannon.

Nurgle is Nurgle and poop.

Slaanesh wins this edition with shooting. Khorne is the best runner up with awesome attacks if he gets into close combat. And even then, fall back with the unit he engaged.... shoot what's left with the rest of your army.