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Thanks guys, I'm constantly building and tweaking and modifying and wrenching my list. One of these days I might actually get to play a game.

So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks

Msolve wrote:
So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks

I assume any GW/forgeworld model will work for a similar model. I dont see why not.

They are pretty big, but they could be cut down to size. I would really like to see the conversion if you do do it. Edit: I totally misread what you said, the kakaphoni work just fine for Noise Marines (was thinking for a Helbrute twin gun).

Let me add: That is assuming Theres no inherent advantage in the model size/shape. There probably is no ADVANTAGE, but just to be clear.

 Jancoran wrote:

Msolve wrote:
So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks

I assume any GW/forgeworld model will work for a similar model. I dont see why not.

My friend has them. They're the same size. You're good to go, dude.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
screening scout units or the like basically kills turn 1 deep strike.

What about if we bring some Nurglings? At the very least they can ensure one dropzone, might be broadcasting it a bit but they're an option and pretty cheap at that

I should clarify - it kills turn 1 deep strike assault. Getting the landing zone isn't the issue - it's assaulting something OTHER than screening units. Even my berserkers have issues getting to the meat of things, and they can pile, fight and consolidate 3 times if I need them to!

For shooting units, this is less of an issue, but even my obliterators have been screened out of range of the targets they actually want to shoot multiple times in deployments that aren't dawn of war.


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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


There's a much easier way to ensure a landing zone. If you're taking a detachment of Daemons with your CSM, take a single unit of Nurglings. Always deploy your "infiltrator" unit first, and you've just created a denial zone for your opponents own infiltrators/deepstrikers.

Nurglings I do feel could become a competitive staples to reliably stop your opponent's infiltration/deep strike units, but then again if you just screen effectively enough maybe you don't need them.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
You can take relic weapons on sorcerers, not princes since Princes have weapons that no relics replace. The weapons themselves say which weapon they replace. princes can, however, take non weapon relics. The elixir prince is pretty common.

I think they mean that you can't take the weapons that replace power weapons, like the Black Mace or Murder Sword on a Sorcerer since Sorcerers always come with force weapons. You could take a power weapon on a terminator sorcerer but then you're dual-wielding and that's kind of a waste.

If that's what was meant, that's what should have been said. Also, regular sorcerers can take power weapons, just swap out their stock bolt pistol.

I thought it was fairly obvious to be honest, especially when we were discussing relic WEAPONS. But what the hay I'll break it down into small pieces so you can digest it. Sure you can hamfist a relic weapon onto a sorcerer but it's not even remotely worth it since they have less attacks that hit less often then a lord AND your paying points for a force weapon you then will never use and you miss the opportunity to take a combi weapon or save points and keep your bolt pistol. The ability to fire a combi melta and demon shell after a smite far outclasses a few swings with a relic. Swings that you then cannot have on your chaos lord who does it better anyway.

Now, having said that, if you have a home made sorcerer that you converted who leads your army and it's worth those costs to feel good fielding him then I am all for that. Strictly as a tactic however it's not a stellar move.

I wasn't making the case it was good, just that it was allowed, sorry if you misinterpreted it otherwise. No need to go into the condescending territory.

Not being condescending at all. Not sure what your expecting is fair, to have it spelled out for you or assume you can follow a case to its logical end. Earlier you asked for it spelled out so I did.

As far as it being possible, yea sure it's possible but if it's obviously bad I am not sure it's worth bringing into a tactics thread unless you have a cool idea for a conversion. Which by the way I was being serious about, I actually like unique characters people tailor to their fluff quite a bit and I give them a pass on point efficiency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Msolve wrote:
So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks

They are perfect mate. You can always add 40k packpacks and some other bits and bobs but otherwise they are already pretty evil looking.

I'm really not impressed with the Brigade. Same CP as a Spearhead, Vanguard, Outrider, and two Battalions, but fewer HQ and far less scope to forfeit a little purity to field non-Legion units. I can't help but feel like in most large-but-not-apoc games, we'll be better off with multiple smaller detachments with more characters and a few Daemons here and there than trying to cram all those trios into a list that'll have a load of minimum strength units. Build your army around synergy, not trying to squeeze every last CP out.
.

Played a 2k game against an AM/IG Death Korps army yesterday. Lots of LOS blocking terrain, not that it made a substantial difference with how much damn artillery he had.

General Observations:

IG castling up is a really hard nut to crack. He was running a Banehammer as well as a Manticore, three basilisks, and a Demolisher tank commander. That's a lot of hammer to hammer through.

The IG order to double fire rapid fire weapons is nasty on their plasma... lesson learned.

Night Lords Specific Stuff:
Miagna of Nurgle, -1 to hit + In Midnight Clad can potentially give raptors with the Mark of Nurgle a -2 to hit for a turn. Sneaky stuff.

Also, BEZERKERS and NOISE MARINES ARE NOW TROOPS in their specific legions...

Where did that change Kajaki?

I would also like a source for that because it is seriously a game changer

New FAQ. That Legion change. Daemon Princes get Legion Traits and no World Eater Sorcerors.

Very helpful update. Now just need to know if FW Brutes can Fire Frenzy.

Daemon princes with traits. Oh boy.


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The equipment fix is welcome. So the old combo of combi weapon and special ccw is valid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I got a reply from FW saying FW hellbrutes Could fire frenzy.

For what that's worth.. I still think it's a bad idea.

Honestly I already thought Princes had the Traits.

They lacked the unit type. (Infantry, Biker, Helbrute)

Also you'd think that with that with THAT FAQ for World Eaters and Emperors Children, they'd fix Obliterators and Mutilators for Iron Warriors, Chosen for Alpha Legion, Possessed for Oerd Bearers, and...yeah Renegades get nothing. NOTHING

With the news of the legion trait on the DP, we can say that the Lord is definetly useless, seriously, why take the chaos lord over a Daemon Prince, if not for fluff reasons? The huge difference IMHO is in the possibily for the Prince to cast a power, which are essential right now (that's why WE hit like trucks).
Talking about Cultists I agree with the majority, since it came out the bolter profile (No AP ffs...) it was clear that the normal marine would have been trash, and with all these new buffs, its clear that on basic troops you need quantity of attacks, not quality.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also you'd think that with that with THAT FAQ for World Eaters and Emperors Children, they'd fix Obliterators and Mutilators for Iron Warriors, Chosen for Alpha Legion, Possessed for Oerd Bearers, and...yeah Renegades get nothing. NOTHING

Renegades have one of the better traits in the book IMO. While Renegade Khorne Berzerkers aren't as strong as World Eaters ones and can't be taken as Troops, the ability to advance and charge is not to be taken lightly. They can perhaps skip taking a transport at that rate and can therefore be viable in a huge blob that your opponent will have to focus down to kill, meaning the rest of your stuff gets ignored. Plus Renegades' basic CSM can advance, fire flamers or meltas into something and then charge it (best outfit them with chainswords). Renegades are pretty solid.

Moreover, let me know what you think about, I found that the possibility to field a huge bubblewrap of cheap troops is a huge advantage, it saves you from sneaky deepstrikes and charges (so many times I won against orks because they charged the cultist and get wipped by my berzerker the next turn). Also it takes only one unit to tarpit that shooting unit (they kill expensive eldar so easily) or take the objective that win you the game.
With the buff on charges this game has become Chess-like, and we need pawns.

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
With the news of the legion trait on the DP, we can say that the Lord is definetly useless, seriously, why take the chaos lord over a Daemon Prince, if not for fluff reasons? The huge difference IMHO is in the possibily for the Prince to cast a power, which are essential right now (that's why WE hit like trucks).
Talking about Cultists I agree with the majority, since it came out the bolter profile (No AP ffs...) it was clear that the normal marine would have been trash, and with all these new buffs, its clear that on basic troops you need quantity of attacks, not quality.

I think he's solid but definitely not an auto take over a lord. Lords are cheaper and provide the same buff to your back field. Lords also have more then one way to deepstrike and can take relic weapons. A prince gets you a jack of all trades kinda model. He's mobile, solid in combat, provides a buff and can cast spells. He also pays to do all of that, so if you just need a guy that buffs your predators or a guy to cast a certain spell then your over paying a bit. I like every character except the exalted champion and the dark apostle to be honest.

So now that WE and EC can take thier respective cult units as troops choices again what combos are ypu guys seeing?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So now that WE and EC can take thier respective cult units as troops choices again what combos are ypu guys seeing?

Probably the same ones as before, just with Berzerkers as Troops I can take a Battalion of them instead of a Vanguard detachment. I usually take 2 HQ's anyway (Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle), so basically I get 2 extra CP's to do the same thing, which is good considering I'd love to get Berzerkers attacking three times at least twice per game.

Speaking of the 3 CP extra attack stratagem, I wonder if it would actually be spicy on a Daemon Prince of Khorne attacking something big like a Knight or Morkanaut or something like that. Khorne DP's get an extra attack anyway, and with an axe they hit very hard, and rerolling 1's helps mitigate the -1 to hit from the axe. The extra swings from the stratagem could make a DP kill a Knight in one turn, which would be really great for a 180-point model. I'll have to give this further thought...

The Prince buff is super nice. A Slaanesh Prince with daemon strength and the elixir with claws is a blender. A very nasty blender that easily killed about 300-400 points of units last night.

I am excited to have my noise marines back as troops. It changes just a few small things in my list but it gives me some points back as well.

Also blastmasters are just amazing and I love them.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Speaking of the 3 CP extra attack stratagem, I wonder if it would actually be spicy on a Daemon Prince of Khorne

The Stratagem is only usable on Infantry and Bikes. So no attacking twice for Helbrutes and Deamon Princes.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Speaking of the 3 CP extra attack stratagem, I wonder if it would actually be spicy on a Daemon Prince of Khorne

The Stratagem is only usable on Infantry and Bikes. So no attacking twice for Helbrutes and Deamon Princes.

Awww...

Oh well, still works great on Berzerkers!

Black Legion just get nothing, so sad :(

Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.

You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.

So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.

I'm really happy that the cult troops situation was sorted out. The idea that 'they didn't want these as troops' never made sense, given that half Plague Marines and Rubric Marines will be in their respective legions by year's end, and Berzerkers and Noise Marines in theirs soon enough.

And I'm glad from a flavour perspective particularly that Daemon Princes gain their Legion Traits. As a thought from who benefits most to least:

Tier 1: The ones that always apply (and are useful)
Renegades: Your DP with wings can now move 12, advance d6, and then charge 2D6. I mean, wow.
Night Lords: I think that this ability synergizes really well with Lord of Terror. So now your Lord gives a Ld debuff, and then make your enemy roll 2D6 for morale. A Night Lords DP is really something to fear.

Tier 2: The ones that apply situationally, and are good; or apply all the time and are average
Emperor's Children: You take DPs as a close-combat monster HQ, rather than a buffer, so having the ability to strike first even when charged is pretty amazing. I'd put it higher, but DPs have a good chance of charging rather than being charged anyway.
Alpha Legion: It's a nice buff, particularly in the late game, when unit numbers are diminished. But it's not amazing as in 7th with Death Guard given that you already can only shoot DPs at all if they're the closest target. But still nice.
World Eaters: As DPs charge this might initially seem 'better' than the EC buff, except for two things: first, it still really doesn't make up for his lack of psychic powers; and second, Slaanesh Lords can already get +1A, and, particularly, +1S with their relic, making EC DPs, weirdly, better in CC than WE ones. Sure, WE is up one attack, but EC has +1A and strikes first all the time.

Tier 3: The stinkers
Iron Warriors: Well, DPs do now have Warp Bolters, but it's not what they're for.
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Black Legion: Amazing. Simply amazing. If it wasn't enough that Black Legion easily got the worst legion trait, their DP doesn't get any benefits from it except in really rare circumstances where you take Ld tests outside of morale. I mean, if this was 7th, and he gave a Ld bubble that would be nice, but it's 8th, and it stinks.


Also unfortunate is that I think that these changes really again cement various armies as better CC forces than World Eaters, and it makes this gap bigger. I'd say that it goes like this:
1) Alpha Legion - With resistance to shooting and infiltrating Berzerkers, they can get people into combat safer and quicker, mitigating the two big weaknesses of CC. And there is the bonus of sorcerer support.
2) Renegades - The ability to advance and charge allows them to get their units into CC more consistently. Losing out on Veterans of the Long War is a big issue, though.

3) Emperor's Children - I think these guys appear here after a noticable gap (hence the above gap).Has the smashiest DP, with an elixer that gets them to that miracle level S8, and various units always hitting first, they're a force to be reckoned with in CC. And their strategem + banner gives them crazy extra attacks. But lacking Berzerkers, which is really the only 'great' CC unit in another shooty edition hurts. And there is the bonus of sorcerer support.
4) World Eaters - Berzerker troops are very nice, although cultists, I feel, are still necessary to include as cappers, given that everything else is presumably rushing forward, so it's not the biggest bonus for them. It can net them some easy extra CP with a double-battalion though. The extra attacks do of course help a lot when charged, but it's a question of getting people there, and safely, which all of the above armies do better. Everyone (except EC) gets Berzerkers anyway, so no real bonus there. The Khorne strategem is nice enough, but again everyone can take it. And their relics only really help against psykers. But lacking psychic support is just such hit in the nuts.
=4) Night Lords - I would actually say that their CC is comparable to that of World Eaters. Sure, they lack the raw killiness of WE in many ways, but they still get Berzerkers and can take the Khorne Strategem. But in many ways I think that the leadership debuff can do more reliable damage to non-single model units than a few extra attacks, particularly given how easy it is now just to leave combat. I'd say that whereas WE is more of a large unit CC army, Night Lords are the MSU CC army.

So you may disagree with my ordering, but I do think that it's a bit sad that WE is not clearly the best, or equal best, CC legion at the moment. Any one of their units, on paper, is better in CC, but their lack of any tricks to get them there really hurts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Msolve wrote:
So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks

I assume any GW/forgeworld model will work for a similar model. I dont see why not.

My friend has them. They're the same size. You're good to go, dude.

Thanks!