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 mrhappyface wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Question, is the deredeo's butcher array two butcher cannons (so 16 shots) or is it different?

Re-read the weapon name.

On the subject of the Dorito, what if you tag teamed it with a Fire Raptor and a biker sorcerer? Give them all Alpha Legion keyword, give the Dorito a Hellfire veil and make the Sorcerer Nurgle. Infiltrate the Dorito 26" ahead of the Raptor, Fly the Raptor forward 20" and flat out the Sorcerer, cast the -1 to hit on the Dorito. You now have a Fire Raptor with 3+/5++ and a -1 to hit it and a Dorito with 3+/5++ and -1 to hit. Butcher cannon array, Twin Heavy bolter, 2x Quad Heavy bolter, twin bolt cannon and 2x twin Lascannons on some pretty tough targets. You could also infiltrate forward some cultists for screening (they'll have a 5++ now too), throw in a Terminator Lord too for some re-rolls to hit.

Thoughts?

Also, because I'm an idiot, I forgot AL trait already gives them a -1 to hit on everything but the Fire Raptor.

Just got home and looked at the leviathan datasheet my friend printed out for me. I was confused on the name (which was mentioned above) and thus didnt understand the answers I got. With the faq the leviathan can take 2 butcher cannon arrays, which are each heavy 8, for a total of 16 shots. Is the deredeo the same or is it only able to take a single butcher cannon array?

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
Just got home and looked at the leviathan datasheet my friend printed out for me. I was confused on the name (which was mentioned above) and thus didnt understand the answers I got. With the faq the leviathan can take 2 butcher cannon arrays, which are each heavy 8, for a total of 16 shots. Is the deredeo the same or is it only able to take a single butcher cannon array?

Ahh I see, yeh only a single array. But can also take a second option of either -

- A 5++ shield bubble that works on anything nearby the doredeo
OR
- A havoc missile launcher, which doesn't need LoS and has 3D3 shots.

The havoc isn't quite as good as a butcher array, but it's not bad and you can target enemies you can't see. It's probably better than a butcher cannon, but slightly below a butcher array. Depends on what you target though. The 5++ option might be the better choice, if you have a load of shooty stuff to put near the doredeo. I havent yet decided which loadout I would use, but either way it still works out about 100 points cheaper than the leviathan. Only other difference I can see is -1 toughness and -2 attacks, but if you're going shooty the attacks dont matter much.

That 5++ bubble seems great to go with a small gunline, which is something I am working on. Does it apply to all units of said LEGION or are there other restrictions? Might end up proxing that to try it with some havocs. Someone said its similar in size as the leviathan or the contemptor? If it works out, I may get one to tag along with the double butcher array leviathan, HB havoc squad, lascannon havoc squad, and a lord. Roughly 900 points for all that, but thats a lot of firepower.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
That 5++ bubble seems great to go with a small gunline, which is something I am working on. Does it apply to all units of said LEGION or are there other restrictions? Might end up proxing that to try it with some havocs. Someone said its similar in size as the leviathan or the contemptor? If it works out, I may get one to tag along with the double butcher array leviathan, HB havoc squad, lascannon havoc squad, and a lord. Roughly 900 points for all that, but thats a lot of firepower.

Deredeo and the Leviathan share a base size (80mm I think). Contemptor is on standard dreadnought base (60mm).

I have a model I have in mind as my "Heavy" dreadnought, which I will use as a proxy for either a doredeo or a leviathan depending on what I find most useful.

I'd say you could use a Levi as a Dorito, and vice versa, but a contemptor would be pushing it because of the difference in base size and model size. Modelling for advantage etc.

Edit: oh, and yeh its just <LEGION> for the 5++, so anything in the same legion would be fine.

That 5++ sounds like a useful aura ability I may get a Deredeo.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Wouldn't benefit from legion traits, as it's cavalry not infantry

Fair enough. Not incredibly important if doing a Melee Alpha Legion unit, anyway. Would still get use of "I am Alpharius"

Now make it Alpha Legion, give it Blade of the Hydra, and buff it using a sorcerer with Diabolic Strength.

Chaos Lord on Steed is my favorite low cost solopwnmobile.

Especially since Slaanesh Heralds can make it Fight twice.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Wouldn't benefit from legion traits, as it's cavalry not infantry

Fair enough. Not incredibly important if doing a Melee Alpha Legion unit, anyway. Would still get use of "I am Alpharius"

Now make it Alpha Legion, give it Blade of the Hydra, and buff it using a sorcerer with Diabolic Strength.

Chaos Lord on Steed is my favorite low cost solopwnmobile.

Yeah. I'm slowly growing on adding a few of them in a Supreme Command with a Daemon Prince to play Alpharius swaps. They move incredibly quickly and do a very decent amount of attacks.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Wouldn't benefit from legion traits, as it's cavalry not infantry

Fair enough. Not incredibly important if doing a Melee Alpha Legion unit, anyway. Would still get use of "I am Alpharius"

Now make it Alpha Legion, give it Blade of the Hydra, and buff it using a sorcerer with Diabolic Strength.

Chaos Lord on Steed is my favorite low cost solopwnmobile.

Yeah. I'm slowly growing on adding a few of them in a Supreme Command with a Daemon Prince to play Alpharius swaps. They move incredibly quickly and do a very decent amount of attacks.

"I am Alpharius!"

"No, I am Alpharius!"

"Blurgl Gurbllblbr Urrr!"

Niiru wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Am I missing something here, folks?

From the index, a Chaos lord on a Slaanesh Steed:

107pts for a Lord with 2x Lightning Claws, Steed, counts as Slaanesh Daemon and <Legion>. On the charge it would have 7 S4 ap-1 1d Attacks and 2 S4 ap- 1d Attacks. It can be buffed by a Herald, as it's a Daemon, bringing all of those to S5. Has a 12" Move, and can advance/charge.

Now, I very well may just want an excuse to convert 6 of these, but can anyone let me know if I've made an error here? These seem amazing. Especially with the new CSM Codex powers/stratagems/legion traits.

Well, you have missed one major thing - Traits (and a lot of the other buffs) only work on Infanty, Bikes and Helbrutes. All the mounted Lords count as Cavalry, and so don't get any of the CSM traits anymore. I think some strategems and psychic powers also can't affect them. They'll only benefit from daemon buffs, and some of the auras.

Edit - like 3 people responded with this while I was slow typing haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Wouldn't benefit from legion traits, as it's cavalry not infantry

You'd think there would be an FAQ on that. Or did nobody bother to ask?

I suspect it's intended, as they are more daemon than space marine if they're using the chaos steeds etc. It's the drawback of getting the better mount. However they do get some bonus' due to the daemon buffs, so it's not all bad. Can't remember what they are, you'd have to check. Think they get +1 strength near a herald, at least.

Not really. They're just Space Marines on Demonic Mounts. It shouldn't stop someone from being Alpha Legion and getting the -1 to be shot at, or for a Juggerlord with a Combi-Bolter to lose ignoring cover as Iron Warriors.

cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (

On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?

In no particular order (things I've played with)

1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)

 Rydria wrote:
cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (

On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?

In no particular order (things I've played with)

1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)

Sonic helbrutes dop seem good, but the emperors children trait is pretty bad. Are they good enough to forfeit a trait for?

Niiru wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (

On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?

In no particular order (things I've played with)

1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)

Sonic helbrutes dop seem good, but the emperors children trait is pretty bad. Are they good enough to forfeit a trait for?

Mine keep dying early when they don't they do lots of damage.

Do not underestimate that trait. It has let me basically rip apart and hold against some nasty assault armies like Genestealer cults and such.

It isn't great verse a gun line but it can really ruin people's days. Plus if you get the charge off you will be ripping apart folks no problem especially if you can back them in a corner making falling back hard.

Mazzyx wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (

On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?

In no particular order (things I've played with)

1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)

Sonic helbrutes dop seem good, but the emperors children trait is pretty bad. Are they good enough to forfeit a trait for?

Mine keep dying early when they don't they do lots of damage.

Do not underestimate that trait. It has let me basically rip apart and hold against some nasty assault armies like Genestealer cults and such.

It isn't great verse a gun line but it can really ruin people's days. Plus if you get the charge off you will be ripping apart folks no problem especially if you can back them in a corner making falling back hard.

It just seemed not so powerful because its basically useless in the first round of any combat, so it's only good if a combat lasts multiple rounds. And that's without the enemy doing any falling back, or having other units charge into the combat. I doubt most of our units will survive in combat long enough to take advantage of it, unless you take large sized squads.

I could be wrong though.

Niiru wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (

On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?

In no particular order (things I've played with)

1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)

Sonic helbrutes dop seem good, but the emperors children trait is pretty bad. Are they good enough to forfeit a trait for?

Mine keep dying early when they don't they do lots of damage.

Do not underestimate that trait. It has let me basically rip apart and hold against some nasty assault armies like Genestealer cults and such.

It isn't great verse a gun line but it can really ruin people's days. Plus if you get the charge off you will be ripping apart folks no problem especially if you can back them in a corner making falling back hard.

It just seemed not so powerful because its basically useless in the first round of any combat, so it's only good if a combat lasts multiple rounds. And that's without the enemy doing any falling back, or having other units charge into the combat. I doubt most of our units will survive in combat long enough to take advantage of it, unless you take large sized squads.

I could be wrong though.

Where it comes in is during multiple charges. A single unit charging a single unit doesn't change. If you get charged by two units one of your units gets to strike before at least one of the enemy units without spending any cps. This really forces your opponent to make choices. And EC units both noise marines and everything else aren't push overs in combat.

Alternating combats on your enemies charge is really powerful.

It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.

Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.

Fringe benefits of Word Bearers: not losing Legion trait on Daemon-mounted characters

Actually, that is pretty decent. Can bring a Steed Lord, couple of Heralds, and some Fiends or Flamers, still use my *brilliant* Legion Stratagem, and not lose out on my *brilliant* Morale re-rolls as they only really matter to my *brilliant* hordes anyway.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:
cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (

On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?

In no particular order (things I've played with)

1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)

1 - Havocs
2 - Possessed
3 - Dreadclaw
4 - Chaos Lord
5 - Fiends

Sorcerers are amazing on paper but it's been over a month since I actually succeeded in casting anything, losing scalability and ability to throw a dozen dice at a critical power has hurt them a lot imo

What are peoples opinions on an msu chosen squad with combi-bolters as a deepstrike/infiltrating denial unit? 90pts for 5 csm with an extra attack and combi-bolters, but dont have obsec. They are only there to stop alpha strikes and just generally get in the opponents way. They are not much of threat so the opponent wont want to shoot them, but they cant be entirely ignored either.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
What are peoples opinions on an msu chosen squad with combi-bolters as a deepstrike/infiltrating denial unit? 90pts for 5 csm with an extra attack and combi-bolters, but dont have obsec. They are only there to stop alpha strikes and just generally get in the opponents way. They are not much of threat so the opponent wont want to shoot them, but they cant be entirely ignored either.

why would you ever use combi-bolter chosen over sonic blaster noise marines ?

How effective do you guys think the Lord of Skulls would be as a distraction target? I mean, its big, imposing, and looks scary. Yet, if you swop out its Hades gun for the skull hurler, its only 537 points. (pretty reasonable for something that is 28W, T8, 5++ save, with infernal regeneration).

If you run it in a world eaters army that wants to go up and smash the opponent to bits. Think it would work? I mean, LOS is pretty hardy. It can probably take one or even two turns of shooting to kill. And that will allow the rest of the army to get into melee range and kill stuff.

I threw together a rough list. Full world eaters army.

2 daemon princes of Khorne with wings, warp bolters, (one of them with talismen of burning blood).

3 squads of 8 zerkers, one plasma pistol, the champ with power fist, the rest with chain axes inside 3 Rhinos with combi meltas.

Two Hellbrutes with multi melta and hellbrute fists with heavy flamers.

And one big mean Lord of skulls with skull hurlers and gorestorm cannon.


So, if I get first turn, everyone can advance move and shoot, because the Rhinos melta, hellbrutes and even the warp bolters on the DPs are all assault weapons. The LOS will move 10, and use daemonforge to shoot everything it has too. The strategy won't change even if I go second. Everyone advance move and shoots.

Second turn, I should be able to unload my 3 squads of zerkers, everyone move, shoots and then charge into combat and when they do, the world eaters trait of +1 attack on the charge is going to be so yummy! I am hoping that opponent focused on my LOS which will tank the shooting, so that the rest of the army can charge into close combat mostly intact. I usually wouldn't use hellbrutes because they tend to get shot up before they reach combat, but with the LOS distraction carnefix around, maybe they might work?

So, what do you all think? Dumb idea? may work?

The question is simply: do those 600 points earn their value back consistently. Try out the list against different armies and players. It should be a few games, since you want to see the statistical average (mathematically speaking you would want to have a solid population with >40 data points to speak of statistical soundness).

In my opinion there are two possibilities: the opponent ignores the LoS and uses the time to shoot the rest of the army to pieces. This might happen with a deep strike heavy army, where you can't use the LoS to hide your melees out of line of sight (also LOS, lol). The LoS is strong, but on its own it won't be able to win a game, since you can't get to multiple objectives fast or fulfill objective like "cast spells". So it also depends on the mission type and goals.

The other possibility is that after 2 turns of shooting and advancing you lost 600 points and have your melee units in his face, hopefully. How good this goes might depend on the overall points value. In ~1800 points this would be a third of your army while he has those 600 points in multiple units, which you won't be able to charge all in the same turn. Also he might have tarpits or blocking units which prevent you from reaching your targets, e.g. Scarab Swarms or Nurglings.

So, bottom line: this sounds fun to try, but might be a bit situational. I think it won't be cover-all-corners thing, but a fun list nonetheless.

I also think the cavalry decission was intented, and I am really pissed off since I already started converting a Lord on a Disc of Tzeentch for my Alpha Legion to get the -1 to hit from the Changelling and +1 ST from the Herald on Disc. Now I must decide what to do:

· Keeping the same idea and lossing the AL trait. The Lord would keep getting the buffs from Tzeentch Daemons but that also mean he would not get into CC until turn 2 (if lucky).
· Going full Termie: a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour dropping in turn 1 with my termies and a Sorceror in Terminator armor. Will be sure that he buffs the termies on turn 1 rerrolling 1's but would not charge since the Sorcerer will cast Prescience and Warptime on the Termies. Also, quite pricy.
· A Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: could make the same that the termie one but with higher movility after the drop. A second Sorcerer could cast Diabolic Strength on him and crossing fingers he gets a cool Warlord trait in addition to 'I am Alpharius'

What do you guys think?

 ochobits wrote:
I also think the cavalry decission was intented, and I am really pissed off since I already started converting a Lord on a Disc of Tzeentch for my Alpha Legion to get the -1 to hit from the Changelling and +1 ST from the Herald on Disc. Now I must decide what to do:

· Keeping the same idea and lossing the AL trait. The Lord would keep getting the buffs from Tzeentch Daemons but that also mean he would not get into CC until turn 2 (if lucky).
· Going full Termie: a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour dropping in turn 1 with my termies and a Sorceror in Terminator armor. Will be sure that he buffs the termies on turn 1 rerrolling 1's but would not charge since the Sorcerer will cast Prescience and Warptime on the Termies. Also, quite pricy.
· A Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: could make the same that the termie one but with higher movility after the drop. A second Sorcerer could cast Diabolic Strength on him and crossing fingers he gets a cool Warlord trait in addition to 'I am Alpharius'

What do you guys think?

Cavalry, not infantry, won't receive Alpha Legion traits but will receive Daemon buffs.

Where are all these changes at? It's making it hard to keep up with, and not accidentally cheat.

Finally got my Forgeworld order: Jetbike for a converted chaos sorcerer on a bike and 6 units of Enforcers to use as 3x 10 man cultist units (bit expensive but I came into a bit of extra money recently).

I'm still unsure of what to really do with my NL cultists though: do I rush them forward to force -3Ld on units that my WE Berzerkers have hit or do I just leave them in my deployment to sit on objectives? This second option seems safer but also seems like a waste of a trait (especially when the bike sorcerer can't impose the -1Ld).

What are your thoughts on NL cultists?

Why can't the bike enforcer impose -1ld?

Possibly not what you want to do , but tide of Traitors is a great way to move blobs of cultists into the enemy deployment zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Using enforcers as cultists is deliciously decadent.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Why can't the bike enforcer impose -1ld?

Possibly not what you want to do , but tide of Traitors is a great way to move blobs of cultists into the enemy deployment zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Using enforcers as cultists is deliciously decadent.

Oh right yeah, with all the talk of cavalry I thought that bikes couldn't use traits as well.

I was thinking that maybe I could push forward with the cultists and then when the game is close to ending teleport them back into my deployment zone to grab an objective using that strategem.

And yes it is.
I'm loving how they look so I'm definitely going to shelf my old cultists and the rather poorly converted renegade guard I have.

 Rydria wrote:
It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.

Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.

Well it's true that the Alpha Legion trait is less slightly useful on assault armies, but it still is useful especially on the first couple turns while you're moving your units up the board. -1 to hit means a lot more of them will make it into assault range in the first place. The only units that wont get any benefit are deepstrikers, but even then they would be safer from getting shot at from other enemy units that are further away, so they'd only be vulnerable to the enarby units (which are the ones they would be planning to assault anyway). So the trait is useful for all armies, for every turn of the game.

The emperors children trait is seems like it would only be useful for maybe one or two turns. Footslogging or transported troops wouldnt be in combat for the first turn or two anyway, so its useless for them then. If they charge (or are charged) on turn 2/3 the trait doesnt effect anything. So it's turn 3/4 that it starts really getting some use, for the surviving units. Maybe turn 4/5 too, if the game lasts that long and noone has fallen back or wiped out your squads.
But if you attack a weak unit, they're likely to fall back and have one of their assault units charge in (again negating the trait).
Or if you attack a strong unit, then you'll both get slaughtered, but you will get one extra turn of going first. Which is *great*, but it's only likely to happen for maybe 1 or 2 turns, for a couple of units that get the right conditions.
By which time you're on turn 4 or 5 so the game will be over.

I can see it being good in pure assault armies, that focus on lots of deepstriking assault units (or fast vehicles if they can get them into melee on turn 2).

But, and here's the downside... if you're emperors children, and taking Sonic Helbrutes and Noise Marines, then you wont have many points for these deeptriking / fast assault units. So it'll be wasted.

I'm still tempted to go with Empoerors Children, just so I get Noise Marine troops and the Sonic Brute. But I'd only have a couple of assault units to use as skirmishers, so I know I'd get only a bit of use from the trait.

Niiru wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.

Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.

Well it's true that the Alpha Legion trait is less slightly useful on assault armies, but it still is useful especially on the first couple turns while you're moving your units up the board. -1 to hit means a lot more of them will make it into assault range in the first place. The only units that wont get any benefit are deepstrikers, but even then they would be safer from getting shot at from other enemy units that are further away, so they'd only be vulnerable to the enarby units (which are the ones they would be planning to assault anyway). So the trait is useful for all armies, for every turn of the game.

The emperors children trait is seems like it would only be useful for maybe one or two turns. Footslogging or transported troops wouldnt be in combat for the first turn or two anyway, so its useless for them then. If they charge (or are charged) on turn 2/3 the trait doesnt effect anything. So it's turn 3/4 that it starts really getting some use, for the surviving units. Maybe turn 4/5 too, if the game lasts that long and noone has fallen back or wiped out your squads.
But if you attack a weak unit, they're likely to fall back and have one of their assault units charge in (again negating the trait).
Or if you attack a strong unit, then you'll both get slaughtered, but you will get one extra turn of going first. Which is *great*, but it's only likely to happen for maybe 1 or 2 turns, for a couple of units that get the right conditions.
By which time you're on turn 4 or 5 so the game will be over.

I can see it being good in pure assault armies, that focus on lots of deepstriking assault units (or fast vehicles if they can get them into melee on turn 2).

But, and here's the downside... if you're emperors children, and taking Sonic Helbrutes and Noise Marines, then you wont have many points for these deeptriking / fast assault units. So it'll be wasted.

I'm still tempted to go with Empoerors Children, just so I get Noise Marine troops and the Sonic Brute. But I'd only have a couple of assault units to use as skirmishers, so I know I'd get only a bit of use from the trait.

I think he meant the AL trait is situationally useless AGAINST short ranged armies. I play Khorne CSM, and against a Ravenguard army, I don't think the trait came up at all. The little shooting I had was all anti-tank, shooting at targets that dont have the trait anyways. Everything else was only attacking once within 12" or melee.

 McGibs wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.

Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.

Well it's true that the Alpha Legion trait is less slightly useful on assault armies, but it still is useful especially on the first couple turns while you're moving your units up the board. -1 to hit means a lot more of them will make it into assault range in the first place. The only units that wont get any benefit are deepstrikers, but even then they would be safer from getting shot at from other enemy units that are further away, so they'd only be vulnerable to the enarby units (which are the ones they would be planning to assault anyway). So the trait is useful for all armies, for every turn of the game.

The emperors children trait is seems like it would only be useful for maybe one or two turns. Footslogging or transported troops wouldnt be in combat for the first turn or two anyway, so its useless for them then. If they charge (or are charged) on turn 2/3 the trait doesnt effect anything. So it's turn 3/4 that it starts really getting some use, for the surviving units. Maybe turn 4/5 too, if the game lasts that long and noone has fallen back or wiped out your squads.
But if you attack a weak unit, they're likely to fall back and have one of their assault units charge in (again negating the trait).
Or if you attack a strong unit, then you'll both get slaughtered, but you will get one extra turn of going first. Which is *great*, but it's only likely to happen for maybe 1 or 2 turns, for a couple of units that get the right conditions.
By which time you're on turn 4 or 5 so the game will be over.

I can see it being good in pure assault armies, that focus on lots of deepstriking assault units (or fast vehicles if they can get them into melee on turn 2).

But, and here's the downside... if you're emperors children, and taking Sonic Helbrutes and Noise Marines, then you wont have many points for these deeptriking / fast assault units. So it'll be wasted.

I'm still tempted to go with Empoerors Children, just so I get Noise Marine troops and the Sonic Brute. But I'd only have a couple of assault units to use as skirmishers, so I know I'd get only a bit of use from the trait.

I think he meant the AL trait is situationally useless AGAINST short ranged armies. I play Khorne CSM, and against a Ravenguard army, I don't think the trait came up at all. The little shooting I had was all anti-tank, shooting at targets that dont have the trait anyways. Everything else was only attacking once within 12" or melee.

Ahhhh... I didn't think of that. It's a good point. Two of the opponents I'm likely to play against run Tau / Imperial Guard tanks / Ultramarines, so I pretty much assume lots of long range firepower flying across the board.

I may rethink the Emperors Children trait then, though Alpha does also have the single infiltrators strategem which seem potentially useful (if there's a unit that can make good use of it).

It's also made me realise that maybe the Iron Warriors one isn't as bad as people say. Giving the enemy no cover saves at all isn't the worst thing in the world.