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I don't think you really need to put noise marines into a Kharybdis. Their range is 24 inches and sonic blastors are an assault weapon. So, they can advance move and still shoot. If your purpose is to kill chaff, then I am pretty sure with a normal move, or an advance move, all the chaff will be within range of your guns.

Even if opponent gets first turn, noise marines get to shoot when they die, and unless he is playing such a turtling army, there should be at least some bubblewrap and chaff to kill if he kills some of your noise marines.

 luke1705 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, Noise Marines need too much babysitting. Obliterators are the correct choice.

Care to explain that statement? They both hit on 3's, so you'd probably want a lord and to have prescience on them.

My assumption is that you're talking about the relative durability, or that oblits can alpha in without being killed first.

It's true that Noise Marines require a rhino competitively, but the same thing is true for zerkers and I don't know any player who is dismissing them as "needing too much babysitting so I won't take them"

Oblits are a good choice. I'm not saying you shouldn't take them. What I am saying is that there's no reason to take 2 squads of oblits instead of 1 squad of oblits and 1 squad of noise marines. They're good at different things and are both valuable. My issue with 2 oblits and zero noise marine squads is that you can't deal well with hordes at range. Sure you can send in the zerkers but if you do that turn 1, then you're trading a zerker for a couple of conscripts (or whatever chaff screening unit they have). Not usually a winning trade, no matter how many you kill.

And just fyi, there are a lot less units that can deal effectively with the amount of chaff units in the current meta than there are that can kill big things. If I want to kill a knight, Magnus, Mortarion or even a Maulerfiend can go to town. Killing chaff units is less well represented, so if I had to choose one or the other, I'd pick noise marines. They fire 3 times for goodness sake. Twice on your turn and then once on your enemy's turn when they die.

In smaller numbers, you aren't getting too much firepower, which means you ought to do a 10 man squad. Issue there is morale. THEN you have the issue of getting them anywhere without Infiltrate, which is better spent on Chosen and Berserker Marines.

Not only are there no morale issues with Obliterators, you don't have any issue of getting them anywhere what with Deep Strike and being able to advance and shoot. Add on potential synergy with Daemons and being not restricted to MoS.

Noise Marines aren't bad, but, like I said, they NEED more help compared to Obliterators. In a larger game where you have more options this isn't an issue, but in any game below 2000 I would pass.

I would say bring both. Noise marines to deal with chaff and obliterators to deal with armor and high save units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

In smaller numbers, you aren't getting too much firepower, which means you ought to do a 10 man squad. Issue there is morale. THEN you have the issue of getting them anywhere without Infiltrate, which is better spent on Chosen and Berserker Marines.

Not only are there no morale issues with Obliterators, you don't have any issue of getting them anywhere what with Deep Strike and being able to advance and shoot. Add on potential synergy with Daemons and being not restricted to MoS.

Noise Marines aren't bad, but, like I said, they NEED more help compared to Obliterators. In a larger game where you have more options this isn't an issue, but in any game below 2000 I would pass.

Morale saves your opponent a few bullets for the last couple of guys if they kill exactly the right amount. It's not nothing but it's not game breaking. Oblits are absolutely going to be MoS because they want to shoot twice also. A rhino will keep the noise marines safe with certainty. Very few armies have the luxury of being able to pop a rhino or two on turn 1, then still have enough firepower on top of that to murder a squad of power armor marines, especially if you utilize BLOS terrain effectively.

How, pray tell, do chosen or zerkers avoid this issue? Both of them need a rhino just like the noise marines.

Also to reiterate, oblits are great and I think it's best to include both oblits and noise marines. Because they are for different targets. Saying you don't need noise marines in favor of multiple squads of oblits just tells me that your opponents aren't using as many models as the competitive players are nowadays. The meta is horde.

Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.

Infiltrating either of those units relies on you going first. If you do, it's great. If you don't, they're vulnerable.

And again, if you think that's such a great strategy, just infiltrate the noise marines. I don't see why you view that strategy as ok for some units but not others.

I wonder how long it will be before people start coming up with Magnus + Mortarion lists. If its a 2000 point list, you only have slightly over 1000 points for the rest of your army if you take those two. But it might work. After all, either one Magnus or one Mortarion is already a wrecking ball, both of them at the same time is two wrecking balls! lol Maybe the rest of the army just needs to sit around and cheer the two daemon primarchs on is enough.

Wondering were i can see the nova open army lists (all of them)?

Can somebody help me?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't think you really need to put noise marines into a Kharybdis. Their range is 24 inches and sonic blastors are an assault weapon. So, they can advance move and still shoot. If your purpose is to kill chaff, then I am pretty sure with a normal move, or an advance move, all the chaff will be within range of your guns.

Even if opponent gets first turn, noise marines get to shoot when they die, and unless he is playing such a turtling army, there should be at least some bubblewrap and chaff to kill if he kills some of your noise marines.

Need to? No. You don't ever need to do anything. However, if you want a team of 20 of them to guarantee surviving so you can fire off 120 shots, it's a pretty reliable way of doing so.

I had a most bizarre game two days ago.
My army contained:

Iron Warriors
Battalion Detachment
HQs
Sorcerer: basic

Chaos Lord: bolter
Warlord Trait: cold and bitter

2 identical units of chaos marines
power fist, plasma pistol, plasma gun, the icon of vengeance, heavy bolter

1 Squad + Rhino
Powersword, meltagun, the icon of vengeance, heavy bolter

3 Obliterators in deep strike.

I played against Imperial fists and mechanicum, both players were sufficiently adept with their armies, yet I beat both without taking severe losses. Nearly whipping out the imperial fists and beating the mechanicum by points.

The mechanicum had:

Belisarius cawl

Greyfax

10 Rangers
3 plasma calivers

10 Rangers
1 arquebus
2 plasma caliver

Onager dunecrawler
eradication array

Breachers
Plasma + stubbers

The Imperial Fists had:

Chapter Master/captain (not sure)
Thuder hammer
Reroll charge ranges

Chaplain

Apothecary

Primaris Lieutenant

Techmarine
Canon

TROOPS
2 Identical 10 man tactical squads
Power fist, heavy bolter, meltagun.

UNITS
5 assault marines
Powerfist, melta bombs, 2 plasma pistols

5 Devestators
2 lascanons
2 missile launchers

In theory, both of them had much stronger rosters, the thing is that the majority of the killing power came from the chaos space marine squads (Combined results from the two games).
Are ordinary power armoured guys better and viable in this edition?

P.S.: The Obliterators killed Cawl on the first turn with a lucky deep strike, if not for that I would have probably lost against the mechanicum.

No regular armored guys aren't viable. Just get your points from Cultists and use Chosen instead, who do everything better for just a few points more.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before people start coming up with Magnus + Mortarion lists. If its a 2000 point list, you only have slightly over 1000 points for the rest of your army if you take those two. But it might work. After all, either one Magnus or one Mortarion is already a wrecking ball, both of them at the same time is two wrecking balls! lol Maybe the rest of the army just needs to sit around and cheer the two daemon primarchs on is enough.

People are already way ahead of you, my friend. For funsies I even worked up a triple threat list that included Magnus, Mortarion, and Aetaos together, just to see what you could fit with them.

Sokhar wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before people start coming up with Magnus + Mortarion lists. If its a 2000 point list, you only have slightly over 1000 points for the rest of your army if you take those two. But it might work. After all, either one Magnus or one Mortarion is already a wrecking ball, both of them at the same time is two wrecking balls! lol Maybe the rest of the army just needs to sit around and cheer the two daemon primarchs on is enough.

People are already way ahead of you, my friend. For funsies I even worked up a triple threat list that included Magnus, Mortarion, and Aetaos together, just to see what you could fit with them.

I imagine it could be pretty fun.

Magnus can Warptime Mortarion instead of himself to get into enemy lines. Then Magnus focuses on buffing his own Invul to weather the fire. The rest of the army is likely going to be focused on killing because Objectives will be hard to take.

I only hope Magnus and Mortarion will be able to adopt a gestalt form with Angron and Fulgrim, like when the Dinobots combined

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.

Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.

Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.

Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.

Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.

Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.

I've been wondering about doing just this, but using a Dreadclaw instead of the K-claw to save some points as well as being easier to model (K-claw from FW is horrifically expensive, even recasts!). I only need room in the Claw for 10 guys, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2 Blastmasters. I'm definitely gonna try it at some point, whenever I get around to converting myself a Dreadclaw from a regular Drop Pod kit (I have a couple of spares now that pods are trash).

 Cephalobeard wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.

Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.

Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.

I more expect the Berserker Marines and Chosen to be able to do the job better for the price though is my issue.

Only one way to settle this - 10 each of Zerks and Noise Marines in the same Kharybdis, let them have a contest like Legolas & Gimli

Do the same with Plague Marines and Rubrics on an objective, see who's the last one standing

Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?

I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).


They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.

Is this only weird to me?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Only one way to settle this - 10 each of Zerks and Noise Marines in the same Kharybdis, let them have a contest like Legolas & Gimli

Do the same with Plague Marines and Rubrics on an objective, see who's the last one standing

Said it before, will say it again. A shooty KAC alpha strike is better than a choppy KAC alpha strike. Making several 9 inch charges is a lot harder than plopping down a fire base and going to town on anything in 24 inches.

My last game was against Conscript-heavy IG. 20 Noise Marines took care of about 50 of them before getting shot up themselves the turn after the arrived (after morale, maybe 3 NMs survived.) As the Noise Marines died, Music of the Apocalypse allowed them to take out the Commissars and the Command Squad, leaving 3 Leman Russes, some Scions, and a lot of low morale troops to chew through before tabling him.

Heh, I was being silly - I saw your earlier posts, and I'm inclined to agree, Plasma Chosen are doing well as a deep insertion force for me. Remind me - do you give any character support to those Noise Marines, and is it one big squad?

Increasingly, as the importance of having a bubble wrap grows, I feel that having the dakka to clear away bubble wrap is also going to be very important. Especially because the advantage chaos has over imperium is that our biggest characters are very mobile and very hitty close up (ie, Magnus and Mortarion). And for them to perform at their best, they need to have a clear path to get to the juiciest part of the opponent army (where all the heavy support and gulliman or main characters are). This will inevitably be bubblewrapped tightly. (If you are facing a player who doesn't know how to do it well, he is probably not a very experienced player). So, having the ability to clear out the bubblewrap so that there is space for your Mortarion or Magnus to fly into and assault becomes important too.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before people start coming up with Magnus + Mortarion lists. If its a 2000 point list, you only have slightly over 1000 points for the rest of your army if you take those two. But it might work. After all, either one Magnus or one Mortarion is already a wrecking ball, both of them at the same time is two wrecking balls! lol Maybe the rest of the army just needs to sit around and cheer the two daemon primarchs on is enough.

It sounds like a great idea until you realize that you are very CP gated at that point. Even if you do 2 supreme commands, you're talking 8 CP max (and that's with a lot of HQ's that you don't really need, unless you're just spamming malefic lords. Even if you are, it's still a lot of points. Most lists don't use that many lords, and most lists use them as HQ's in battalion detachments, so you'll need even more HQ's for your battalion.

If you could have a LOW slot in a battalion, I think it'd be extremely viable. If you could take 4 detachments, I think it'd be extremely viable. As is, I don't think it'll wind up being the best version of Chaos. I do think that distinction will involve Mortarion though.

I have been toying around with the super heavy detachment for 3 CP, but I don't think enough points are left to make a good list after 3 super heavies.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.

Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.

Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.

I've been wondering about doing just this, but using a Dreadclaw instead of the K-claw to save some points as well as being easier to model (K-claw from FW is horrifically expensive, even recasts!). I only need room in the Claw for 10 guys, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2 Blastmasters. I'm definitely gonna try it at some point, whenever I get around to converting myself a Dreadclaw from a regular Drop Pod kit (I have a couple of spares now that pods are trash).

I fiddled with blastmasters and such, ended up just deciding on all Sonic blasters. Saves precious points and still functions very well when you're not worried about long range.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.

Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.

Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.

I've been wondering about doing just this, but using a Dreadclaw instead of the K-claw to save some points as well as being easier to model (K-claw from FW is horrifically expensive, even recasts!). I only need room in the Claw for 10 guys, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2 Blastmasters. I'm definitely gonna try it at some point, whenever I get around to converting myself a Dreadclaw from a regular Drop Pod kit (I have a couple of spares now that pods are trash).

I fiddled with blastmasters and such, ended up just deciding on all Sonic blasters. Saves precious points and still functions very well when you're not worried about long range.

I get you, but I want the versatility of taking a potentially powerful weapon to deal with bigger targets. I realize that the single frequency shot from the Blastmaster is heavy and thus hits on 4's, but it's still not too shabby with d3 shots and d3 damage for each shot. Can certainly plink a few wounds off a tank or something. Plus the varied frequency could really do work against hordes. I've already ordered some cool-looking counts-as Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters from Spellcrow and I have a squad of regular CSM from a Start Collecting box eagerly awaiting them; I can't wait to try them out.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I get you, but I want the versatility of taking a potentially powerful weapon to deal with bigger targets. I realize that the single frequency shot from the Blastmaster is heavy and thus hits on 4's, but it's still not too shabby with d3 shots and d3 damage for each shot. Can certainly plink a few wounds off a tank or something. Plus the varied frequency could really do work against hordes. I've already ordered some cool-looking counts-as Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters from Spellcrow and I have a squad of regular CSM from a Start Collecting box eagerly awaiting them; I can't wait to try them out.

It only hits on 4s if the blastmaster moved. This is the edition of snaking large squads back to an auramancer. The blastmaster never has to move.

Just thought I'd throw out my current thoughts on a Dark Mechanicum list, to see what kind of feedback I get (before I start buying lots of expensive models lol).

Daemon Prince with Wings - 2xMalefic Talons, Warp Bolter
Chaos Lord - Combi-Bolter, Chain Sword

Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
(or 1 squad of 10 and infiltrate them as alpha legion?)

Cultists x 30 - 15x Autoguns, 15xAuto pistol + ccw
(not sure what the best way to field these are, thought a mix might work as that's the current thinking in boyz mobs haha)

Obliterators x3 - 3xFlesh metal guns

Maulerfiend - Maulerfiend Fists, Lasher Tendrils

Giant Chaos Spawn
Giant Chaos Spawn

Hellforged Contemptor - Deathclaw + Soulburner, Kheres Assault Cannon, Havoc Launcher
Hellforged Contemptor - Deathclaw + Soulburner, Kheres Assault Cannon, Havoc Launcher

Hellforged leviathan dreadnought - Butcher Cannon Array, Grav Flux Bombard, 2xHellflamer
(considering downgrading to a deredeo with butcher array + twin heavy bolter + Havoc Launcher)


Total points = 1878, or about 1790 if I take a Deredeo instead of Leviathan. So still some points left to spend in a full 2k list.

Thinking Alpha Legion would be a good pick for the trait, giving everything a bit more protection in the first couple of turns from long range fire. But any other suggestions are welcome!

Thanks

 lindsay40k wrote:
Heh, I was being silly - I saw your earlier posts, and I'm inclined to agree, Plasma Chosen are doing well as a deep insertion force for me. Remind me - do you give any character support to those Noise Marines, and is it one big squad?

Figgered, but thought I would point out the issue just in case. Watched some videos from NOVA Open where players were running KACs with Berzerkers and groaned.

Would love to know more about how the Plasma Chosen are working out. 2x10 or 4x5? I assume you took them over Havocs for the extra attack, is that a fair statement?

I always bring a Sorcerer to cast Warp Time on the KAC & Prescience on the NMs. I usually bring a Chaos Lord to reroll 1s. The characters usually ride in the KAC, but am going to try them as Terminators in my next game.

FWIW, the Noise Marines are powerful, but they take a lot of wounds the next turn. I am starting to think there needs to be an additional threat to spilt up my opponent & soak up charges. Am thinking about combi-plasma Terminators, for obvious reasons. The indecision has to do with command points and unit tax. It's too expensive to take a brigade, and batallions don't come with enough CP. Endless Cacophony is a great stratagem, when you can afford it.

I'd think 3 squads of 6 would be best for plasma chosen, it gets you the max number of plasma and leaves 2 slots open for a chaos lord and sorcerer to join the ride.