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I've been consistently using Noise Marines and Berzerkers in my Alpha Legion team. Berzerkers die having done almost nothing mainly due to pile ins and the inability to secure 1st turn without failure. Even if they manage to get the charge, they require expensive model support in the form of Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion to truly make their attacks worthwhile. All of these things are prone to getting shot off the field on your opponent's turn once he falls back from the combat so you better have murdered 500+ points worth of stuff.

Noise Marines meanwhile only require a Slaanesh Sorcerer supporting them with Delightful Agonies and Prescience. They still die easily but they return fire on death unlike the Berzerkers. They are also easier to keep alive using blocking terrain or vehicles, effectively limiting line of sight to your marines except by a few targets at a time. When infiltrated into cover, they now boast terminator saves while denying enemies the same benefit. Plus they have assault weapons for that extra run and gun when needed. What's not to love?

Yeah, berserkers are really hard to pull off. I have been trying, and honestly, not succeeding very well. If you are playing against any shooty list where your opponent knows whats he is doing, then using berserkers feels like a bit of a handicap.

 Arkaine wrote:
I've been consistently using Noise Marines and Berzerkers in my Alpha Legion team. Berzerkers die having done almost nothing mainly due to pile ins and the inability to secure 1st turn without failure. Even if they manage to get the charge, they require expensive model support in the form of Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion to truly make their attacks worthwhile. All of these things are prone to getting shot off the field on your opponent's turn once he falls back from the combat so you better have murdered 500+ points worth of stuff.

Try two rhino berzerker AND two maulerfiend or five spawns, they are four target you offer to the enemy and they can keep the same speed.
A unit of 8 with fiste Apostole&Champion in a rhino are under 400 points and they can dish out ( if you take them as world eaters detachment ) 74 attacks...matehammer says that are enough to kill Magnus or Land Raider.
You have to choose wisely your target, I used them in a few matches to charge screens and It was a big mistake, the subsequent fire fase took an heavy toll on them

 techsoldaten wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Heh, I was being silly - I saw your earlier posts, and I'm inclined to agree, Plasma Chosen are doing well as a deep insertion force for me. Remind me - do you give any character support to those Noise Marines, and is it one big squad?

Figgered, but thought I would point out the issue just in case. Watched some videos from NOVA Open where players were running KACs with Berzerkers and groaned.

Would love to know more about how the Plasma Chosen are working out. 2x10 or 4x5? I assume you took them over Havocs for the extra attack, is that a fair statement?

I always bring a Sorcerer to cast Warp Time on the KAC & Prescience on the NMs. I usually bring a Chaos Lord to reroll 1s. The characters usually ride in the KAC, but am going to try them as Terminators in my next game.

FWIW, the Noise Marines are powerful, but they take a lot of wounds the next turn. I am starting to think there needs to be an additional threat to spilt up my opponent & soak up charges. Am thinking about combi-plasma Terminators, for obvious reasons. The indecision has to do with command points and unit tax. It's too expensive to take a brigade, and batallions don't come with enough CP. Endless Cacophony is a great stratagem, when you can afford it.

I'm just dropping 10 Chosen out of a Dreadclaw and rendezvousing with a Daemon Prince and Steed Sorcerer who bring Death Hex as well, it's still enough to terrify my regulars. My list already has three heavy support and we play power levels, so going with Chosen only costs +1 PL, fills out a Vanguard, and makes their Icon of Excess attacks that little more dangerous to charge.

Just finished twenty zerks and I think I'll be putting them in a Spartan rather than getting them a KAC. Twenty WE Zerks in a KAC is part of my long-term goals (they will rendezvous with Fiends to turn a screen into their can't-run-away cover), for my main WB army I'm looking at ten Noise Marines to join these lot in a KAC, and some Possessed to go in the DC to tank for a character who Summons in a KoS or Be'lakor.

I'll be getting another Dreadclaw to complete the Talon, probably for a BL Chosen unit that won't need any buffs due to LtGB.

I've been playing around with just using Bloodletters instead of Berzerkers in Rhinos or pods for that kind of thing. Unaligned characters (like Malefic Lords) can summon them, and they get +1 to their charge rolls after arriving with a 10 point instrument. If you've got a CP ready to go, you have something like a 2/3 chance of getting into CC, and they're not so expensive that failing a charge loses you the game. And then they get 2 S5 AP-2 attacks per 7 point model, which compares really well with Berzerkers even counting their second fight.

Summoning Bloodletters is probably an ok approach to deep strike counter/deterrence, but as an offensive play the requirement for the Summoner to miss their movement phase has pretty much killed it. I'm going to drop some Possessed and a Sorcerer out of a DC and try to get a KoS next turn, but even then it's turn three before your Daemon's likely to get a charge off. By that point, you could have just dropped 3 Obliterator Squads in and already done enough damage to super-charge Epidemius.

I suspect a lot of soemwhat convoluted Chaos setups are going to be judged by the yardstick of 'why didn't you just take loads of Obliterators'

Niiru wrote:
Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?

I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).


They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.

Is this only weird to me?

I own, and have used both extensively, and feel like the Hellforged Leviathan is a terrific, and often competitive choice. Double Grav-Bombard has served me well as a super horde/bubblewrap clearer, or as a great anti-armor gun. Its also a great choice for the Demon Forge Strategem.

He is a bullet-magnet though. He quickly gets caught being so deadly that I would never take a non-Alpha Legion one, as he needs all the survivability he can get.

As to why he's more expensive than the Imperial version... the Hellflamers. Their flamers are really, REALLY good.

 Arkaine wrote:
I've been consistently using Noise Marines and Berzerkers in my Alpha Legion team. Berzerkers die having done almost nothing mainly due to pile ins and the inability to secure 1st turn without failure. Even if they manage to get the charge, they require expensive model support in the form of Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion to truly make their attacks worthwhile. All of these things are prone to getting shot off the field on your opponent's turn once he falls back from the combat so you better have murdered 500+ points worth of stuff.

Noise Marines meanwhile only require a Slaanesh Sorcerer supporting them with Delightful Agonies and Prescience. They still die easily but they return fire on death unlike the Berzerkers. They are also easier to keep alive using blocking terrain or vehicles, effectively limiting line of sight to your marines except by a few targets at a time. When infiltrated into cover, they now boast terminator saves while denying enemies the same benefit. Plus they have assault weapons for that extra run and gun when needed. What's not to love?

Berserker Marines attack twice. In a large enough group you don't need any character supporting them. I haven't a clue why you'd say they need that to make their attacks worthwhile.

zerkers + rhino works wonders

footslogging zerkers are just a bad idea, dont go that route

You shouldn't footslog anything for the most part, unless it has a built in cover bonus or inv save.

In my opinion.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You shouldn't footslog anything for the most part, unless it has a built in cover bonus or inv save.

In my opinion.

That's why daemons are so great this edition.

Niiru wrote:
Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?

I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).


They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.

Is this only weird to me?

The leviathan doesnt have a butcher cannon, its a butcher cannon array that has 8 shots instead of 4. I have been using my leviathan with double arrays for a total of 16 shots and have absolutely no complaints. Always go alpha legion for that -1 to hit.
I dont have a deredeo yet, but I want to get one. Do you use the viel for a 5++ for everything around it or do you go with the greater havoc launcher for some indirect fire.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You shouldn't footslog anything for the most part, unless it has a built in cover bonus or inv save.

In my opinion.

That's why daemons are so great this edition.

Agreed. Tzeentch gives zero hecks about cover, I go wherever I want.

Similarly, I infiltrate my Alpha Legion or toss them in a Kharybdis to go wherever I want.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Berserker Marines attack twice. In a large enough group you don't need any character supporting them. I haven't a clue why you'd say they need that to make their attacks worthwhile.

Because we're comparing them to noise marines who shoot three times from safety and can be psyker buffed for it. Even attacking twice has failed to achieve desired results, especially since it took one of those assaults to kill a single eldar jetbiker with 5 wounds. As mentioned, the inability to guarantee a 1st turn secure makes infiltrating them risky and even placing them outside of cover where they will not get shot leads to Pile-in problems getting them all into melee striking range. People resorting to mathhammer often switch in their head between cover and open fields without explaining how they magically reached those points.

Likewise, the rhino mentions and Magnus? Magnus moves 16" and can Warptime himself. If he's getting charged by your Rhino berzerkers, he wanted it. Rhinos take a while to get them into the fray and they're most devastating on that first turn blitz. Berzerkers do work, no question. Noise Marines simply do more work and can more easily remain alive to continue to do work in subsequent turns. 2+ armor with 5+++ FNP is a crazy amount of resilience for them, especially if you dictate through positioning who is permitted to fire at them. Of all the models and actual playtests performed, I can find no better use of the points than such a team, which can be further enhanced with reroll auras and cultist screens to protect them from close combat.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?

I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).


They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.

Is this only weird to me?

The leviathan doesnt have a butcher cannon, its a butcher cannon array that has 8 shots instead of 4. I have been using my leviathan with double arrays for a total of 16 shots and have absolutely no complaints. Always go alpha legion for that -1 to hit.
I dont have a deredeo yet, but I want to get one. Do you use the viel for a 5++ for everything around it or do you go with the greater havoc launcher for some indirect fire.

Hi, yeh I know the Leviathan (and Deredeo) use Arrays, I was just typing lazily. The Storm cannon still has more shots than the butcher array, for less points.

I dont feel berzerkers and noise marines are very comparable, they fill entirely different roles. Honestly, I think they work great together. Noise marines clear out the bubble wrap for the zerkers to charge, then zerkers rush in and take pressure off the noise marines, allowing them to keep shooting while the berzerkers run wild amongst the enemies line. As to how each squad gets there, I think noise marines in dreadclaw or infiltrating in, while the berzerkers come up behind in rhinos seems like a solid a plan. Havent used it yet (my noise marines arent finished yet), but on paper it looks good.

Berzerkers are great and have done amazing work every game so far, but it takes some practice positioning them right and setting up the charge correctly. I always take them in rhinos to absorb overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?

I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).


They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.

Is this only weird to me?

The leviathan doesnt have a butcher cannon, its a butcher cannon array that has 8 shots instead of 4. I have been using my leviathan with double arrays for a total of 16 shots and have absolutely no complaints. Always go alpha legion for that -1 to hit.
I dont have a deredeo yet, but I want to get one. Do you use the viel for a 5++ for everything around it or do you go with the greater havoc launcher for some indirect fire.

Hi, yeh I know the Leviathan (and Deredeo) use Arrays, I was just typing lazily. The Storm cannon still has more shots than the butcher array, for less points.

Whats the stats for the storm cannon?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


I own, and have used both extensively, and feel like the Hellforged Leviathan is a terrific, and often competitive choice. Double Grav-Bombard has served me well as a super horde/bubblewrap clearer, or as a great anti-armor gun. Its also a great choice for the Demon Forge Strategem.

He is a bullet-magnet though. He quickly gets caught being so deadly that I would never take a non-Alpha Legion one, as he needs all the survivability he can get.

As to why he's more expensive than the Imperial version... the Hellflamers. Their flamers are really, REALLY good.

I did include the hellflamers in the price (I actually thought I'd forgotten) but I saw them as more of a tax than anything... as they're basically flamers on a long range unit, and so are prett much just good for overwatch (except with the 8" range charging units can avoid them entirely). They are powerful, but still short ranged flamers and so could easily go a whole game without ever being fired.?

Niiru wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


I own, and have used both extensively, and feel like the Hellforged Leviathan is a terrific, and often competitive choice. Double Grav-Bombard has served me well as a super horde/bubblewrap clearer, or as a great anti-armor gun. Its also a great choice for the Demon Forge Strategem.

He is a bullet-magnet though. He quickly gets caught being so deadly that I would never take a non-Alpha Legion one, as he needs all the survivability he can get.

As to why he's more expensive than the Imperial version... the Hellflamers. Their flamers are really, REALLY good.

I did include the hellflamers in the price (I actually thought I'd forgotten) but I saw them as more of a tax than anything... as they're basically flamers on a long range unit, and so are prett much just good for overwatch (except with the 8" range charging units can avoid them entirely). They are powerful, but still short ranged flamers and so could easily go a whole game without ever being fired.?

He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:


Whats the stats for the storm cannon?

24" range, Heavy 10, S7, AP-2, D2


So the butcher array is a little stronger, and has 12" more range which is good, so it's probably a better weapon all together even with the 2 less shots.... but it's also 80 points. Storm cannon is only 50 points. The butcher cannon is almost in double-storm territory, and it's not THAT much better is it?!

Well it gets the extra strength and range and the LD debuff. That's pretty fair.

I do have a question for the group though...

One unit of Nurglings in a competitive list...? Yay or nay?

On the one hand its 60pts sure to give your opponent a kill-point/first-blood, etc... but I am so leery of going to tournaments without something to mess with my opponent's potential deep-striking, or if needed deploy right on my opponents deployment line to inconvenience them, or maybe eat an Overwatch for redeployed Berserkers.

Thoughts?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.

Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!

Okay, how does this sound for a dirty trick...

20 Berzerkers
10 Noise Marines
10 Noise Marines
10 Terminators
Fiends

Deep Striking support characters

Nurglings
Nurglings

Kharybdis

Spartan

Rest of army

Nurglings deploy first, immediately pressuring opponent, especially if they have any infiltrators of their own. Rest of army deploys.

If enemy infiltrates, place Fiends to try to charge them without exposing them to fire.

Deploy Terminators in Teleportarium. Berzerkers in Spartan, aiming to make a first turn charge with Fiends that through positioning does not kill target until enemy turn. Noise Marines in KAC. Threat of potential Zerk KAC attack has encouraged opponent to screen; gun them down with sonics as the Zerks either ride through or use infiltrators as cover and pile-in speed-ramps.

Niiru wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.

Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!

I've played a full lev list against 3 different lists:
1. 2x Valdors + Malchadore + 50 conscripts + support tanks. This was a very close game but I was tabled in the end whilst my opponent was left with his 2x support vehicles.
2. Stompas + 60 orks + 6 meganobz + 2x Big meks. I tabled him with 4/5 levs still alive.
3. 2x Stompas. I tabled him with 3/5 levs left.

Niiru wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:


Whats the stats for the storm cannon?

24" range, Heavy 10, S7, AP-2, D2


So the butcher array is a little stronger, and has 12" more range which is good, so it's probably a better weapon all together even with the 2 less shots.... but it's also 80 points. Storm cannon is only 50 points. The butcher cannon is almost in double-storm territory, and it's not THAT much better is it?!

Butcher cannon arry does seem a little overpriced when compared to the storm cannon (but not by much), but thats nothing new for chaos. If a chaos leviathan could take storm cannons, I probably would, but they cant so oh well. Since I keep mine in the back field, I go double butcher cannon. If I were to use the grav-flux bombard (and I got the arm so I might), I would probably keep one cc on him. Havent user this yet though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Niiru wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.

Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!

I've played a full lev list against 3 different lists:
1. 2x Valdors + Malchadore + 50 conscripts + support tanks. This was a very close game but I was tabled in the end whilst my opponent was left with his 2x support vehicles.
2. Stompas + 60 orks + 6 meganobz + 2x Big meks. I tabled him with 4/5 levs still alive.
3. 2x Stompas. I tabled him with 3/5 levs left.

This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:

Niiru wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:


Whats the stats for the storm cannon?

24" range, Heavy 10, S7, AP-2, D2


So the butcher array is a little stronger, and has 12" more range which is good, so it's probably a better weapon all together even with the 2 less shots.... but it's also 80 points. Storm cannon is only 50 points. The butcher cannon is almost in double-storm territory, and it's not THAT much better is it?!

Butcher cannon arry does seem a little overpriced when compared to the storm cannon (but not by much), but thats nothing new for chaos. If a chaos leviathan could take storm cannons, I probably would, but they cant so oh well. Since I keep mine in the back field, I go double butcher cannon. If I were to use the grav-flux bombard (and I got the arm so I might), I would probably keep one cc on him. Havent user this yet though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Niiru wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.

Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!

I've played a full lev list against 3 different lists:
1. 2x Valdors + Malchadore + 50 conscripts + support tanks. This was a very close game but I was tabled in the end whilst my opponent was left with his 2x support vehicles.
2. Stompas + 60 orks + 6 meganobz + 2x Big meks. I tabled him with 4/5 levs still alive.
3. 2x Stompas. I tabled him with 3/5 levs left.

This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?

Yeh, on my Leviathan draft I actually gave him 1x butcher array and 1x grav flux, for the maximum variety of shootiness. However it does kinda waste the butcher's range, or if at long range it makes the Grav unable to shoot. Tricky.

You also do seem to be paying a tax for the Leviathan's close combat ability (his 2+WS) even if you're only using him as a shooty platform with no CCWs. The Deredeo can take a butcher array + twin heavy bolter (lot of dakka there) plus either the hellfire veil for a 5++ bubble, or a havoc launcher for even more long range shots (that ignore LOS). Maxed out, the deredeo is about 100 points cheaper, and you seem to pretty much just lose the 2+WS (that you don't need anyway?).

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?

List I used was 5xLeviathan all with 2xGrav-Flux 2xHellflamers, Abaddon for re-rolls and ~20x Brimstones (though now it might be an idea to take them all as DG and have a DG Lord instead since DG ignore -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons, though Abby still helps in overwatch).

These guys just mow through infantry easy and will drop superheavies like a stompa in a turn if they are all firing on it.

 mrhappyface wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?

List I used was 5xLeviathan all with 2xGrav-Flux 2xHellflamers, Abaddon for re-rolls and ~20x Brimstones (though now it might be an idea to take them all as DG and have a DG Lord instead since DG ignore -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons, though Abby still helps in overwatch).

These guys just mow through infantry easy and will drop superheavies like a stompa in a turn if they are all firing on it.

Interesting point about the DG trait. I'd been thinking of Alpha being the only trait worth considering in my dark mech list, but ignoring the -1 to hit for moving might be useful too depending on the units I choose. Interesting.

Warning on the DG trait. As it stands it works on helbrutes, not HELLBRUTEs

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Warning on the DG trait. As it stands it works on helbrutes, not HELLBRUTEs

GW confirmed on Facebook that traits work on FW dreads ages ago.