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Actually just regular Hellbrutes - Sonic Dread must be both Emperor's Children and Slaanesh, so can't be in (let alone affected by bonus the rule for) Death Guard Detachments.
Not for the Fire Frenzy stratagem. You can use that anyway. And two Blastmasters firing twice is just nasty.
As far as Bikes go, they have a lot of potential. Between the extra wound, and the toughness 5 they already had, they are possibly more durable against small arms fire than Terminators(have not done the math on this, just a first glance opinion.). Of course, they are also expensive. The only unit whose models cost more base are Terminators, and they don't have to slog across the board when they can just teleport to where they need to be. Sure, that 14" move is pretty nice, and 20", if you are going that route, is even better. But if you only purchase the first three bikes, then every time someone shoots at them, you will cringe. And every failed save will hurt that much more.
When I run them like that, I run them with melta-guns. It is expensive for three models, but it is very good at putting three melta shots exactly where I want them: right in my opponent's biggest vehicle. Of course they tend to die not long after, but now they are diverting precious firepower away from the bulk of my army. And with the way cover works in this edition, if you can squeeze those three precious models into area terrain, then your opponent really does need to focus fire you down if he wants his vehicles to survive long. I usually use the combi-bolter on the bike for larger units anyway. You can take it and the melta too on the non-champion bikes.
Also, getting close too genestealers with a unit meant for speed, and getting around the tabletop was probably your first mistake. If you absolutely have to fight them in melee range(this applies to counter-charge too), then you want to use a unit that can fight them in melee for at least a turn. Or a disposable bit of Cultists that can suffer the loss and leave them open for a round of shooting later.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: Interesting views on the Helbrutes, seems to be a popular unit! Though the sonic blaster version still seems the most popular, I see a few of you do enjoy the pure fists/whips option as well. I haven't added up the points for that one yet, but I guess it becomes more valuable if you have other distraction units to soak up fire.
What would be the advantages of running a contemptor over a helbrute or a decimator? Is the contemptor survivable / deadly enough to be worth the added points?
Edit: Also, what would be the optimum Decimator build? Someone mentioned mortal wounds, but the Soulburner Petard is extremely expensive now... is it still work it's points now that it makes the decimator more expensive than a contemptor? Think its 210pts for a double petard decimator, for 4-12 mortal wounds a turn
You are right on the Decimator point value, friend. I do not own either of these models (skipped straight to my Leviathan) but If I were to run a Decimator, it would have double Soulbrners. And it would always be behind a screen of troops so it couldn't be charged and killed(thing only has 8 wounds; one good, or bad, round of shooting and here she goes). As far as the Contemptor goes, I like the option of taking Ectoplasma Blasters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 15:41:56
Double claws on the Decimator was the build I was thinking about trying. They have both the DAEMON and VEHICLE keywords so you can use Daemonforge on them to blender stuff. They do serious work against high value targets.
As the for the Contemptor, if you take it with double melee weapons (take a claw and fist to save yourself 5 points) and double Soulburners you are doing something like 13-14 wounds to Knight in a single turn. They are considerably more expensive than the other walkers though.
Warpy0013 wrote: Not for the Fire Frenzy stratagem. You can use that anyway. And two Blastmasters firing twice is just nasty.
The Fire Frenzy stratagem isn't usable by units with the Helbrute keyword, it's only usable by the unit Helbrute. Several stratagems specify exact units they work with, like Daemon Prince or Chaos Cultists. When they allow an entire subset of units, the stratagem references a keyword and it is written as such. Helbrute is just another term like Infantry, Cavalry, or Vehicle. The stratagem has to specifically allow this subset if they are to receive the benefits of it, which Fire Frenzy does not do. It's also not likely an error since the Legion Traits in the Chaos Codex do have the Helbrute keyword instead of the unit reference. They make a clear distinction in two different spots in the same book. Likewise, when they FAQ added the Daemon Prince, they did not add the Daemon Prince KEYWORD but specifically the Daemon Prince, which denies other Daemon Princes (like if Be'lakor could be from a legion, or some forgeworld DP) from benefiting. The ForgeWorld FAQ added the Helbrute keyword to various units, which grants them Legion traits, but it still does not work with the Fire Frenzy stratagem.
Non-keyword entries are references to a specific unit. If they weren't, you'd get some rather weird results like the Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer being able to be used for Linebreaker Bombardment, & therefore not able to fire the Demolisher Cannons that they don't have. The stratagem does not reference Vindicator keyword units, it references the Vindicator specifically. Other Vindicators cannot use the stratagem (literally) and the same applies to the Helbrute issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 16:02:33
I have been running a maulerfiend, bloodslaughter, contemptor with double chainfist and soulburners, and a winged dp pretty much every game and each has done amazing work. Atleast one usually doesnt make it to the enemies lines (which one depends on what my opponent thinks will hurt him the most), but then everything else gets there and causes havoc. I think the mvp is the contemptor; he is really tough and usually makes it to cc even if my opponent focuses on him first. Double chainfist take out anything and the soulburners add some mortal wounds too. The Bloodslaughterer and maulerfiend are very comparable; the bloodslaughterer is a bit faster with a few less attacks, but at higher strength. The winged dp with talons is great (we all know this) and gives rerolls to whatever makes it in to combat with him. Having multiple high priority threats like this really makes them all shine more, since there is really no way my opponent can take them all out before they get in to cc.
I skipped the decimator because of the point increase to the soulburner petard things and went for a leviathan instead. Havent used it in cc yet (havent converted any cc weapons for it yet), but it has done an amazing job as a rifledread with its double butcher cannon arrays. Next buy will be a deredeo dread, then probably a decimator since the model is just so cool.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/14 16:14:41
I'm going to concede to stop this from derailing into a RAW vs RAI debate and explain that the addition of the Helbrute keyword is not what I was referring to. The Sonic Helbrute has no datasheet. It has no rules listing. the only place it is mentioned is in the FAQ section of the FWFAQ.
Q: There is no datasheet for an Emperor’s Children Sonic Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of Index: Chaos. It must replace its <Mark of Chaos> keyword with Slaanesh, it must replace its <Legion> keyword with Emperor’s Children, and it has two additional wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may replace its multi-melta with two blastmasters.
Until we receive better Errata or clarification, we do not even have an official name for the sonic dreadnought (the FAQ refers to AN Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, not necessarily this one...), because it uses the Helbrute datasheet. If you have recieved official guidance, or want to continue this discusion on a rules thread, then please message me to let me know.
EDIT: The Decimator Model does look amazing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/14 16:15:04
kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote: Anyone had any joy with Chaos Bikers? I tried a unit of six with flamers (2 + a combi-flamer on the Sargent) in my demon engine list but they where underwhelming managing to kill a 4 genestealers before being gobbled up.
I really like the aesthetic of bikers cruising across the board blasting away, But can't seem to make they work.
My next attempt will be 2 * 6 man units (flamers again) to support 2 Bale-drakes in an alpha strike. I'm playing a renegade legion so they can assault after a full 20" move (not that they will do much damage in combat.
I actually ran a unit of 5 Slaanesh bikers with 2 Meltaguns + Combimelta at my most recent tournament. The Slaanesh stratagem worked okay in one game for them, allowing them to take out a Predator even though they advanced that turn. Delightful Agonies also kept them alive longer, although they were focused down and destroyed by some overloading Hellblasters (2 of those Hellblasters blew themselves up despite Guilliman being nearby though ). I think Bikes are pretty solid for Chaos, although I'm not sure Meltas are the best choice for them. Plasma is probably better. Definitely a good idea to mark them Slaanesh and use the double tap stratagem; this could be hilarious against a big blob of Conscripts/Ork Boyz/Cultists while running flamers or something.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
I also think bikes are worth a look now that their cost has been reduced. But I would just stick to their original loadouts. At most take one single special weapon. BTW, the bike champion can take a combi bolter on top of the combi bolter attacked to his bike. So, he fires two combi bolters. That's a lot of dakka!
One thing I've noticed that I can hardly believe, is that Chainfists still cost 22 points while Power Fists were reduced to 12. Surely GW can't be stupid enough to have actually intended for those costs to be like that? Why would anyone take a Chainfist for an extra 10 points when all you get is 1 better AP and flat 2 damage over the regular fist?
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Hey guys, I'm working on getting my black legion together and tournament worthy (I have a GT in less than a month). So I have spent a fair amount of time cruising this thread, and while there is lots of info here, it's scattered throughout dozens of pages interspersed with rules arguments, and other less helpful post. So I thought it might be helpful to condense the opinions of the board into something more easily perusable, and the way we did it in the necron thread was a report card. So to help me memorize and understand the stratagems I put together a report card for them, You guys think the below is a fair estimation of their effectiveness? Also would there be any interest in doing this for our units?
Spoiler:
DAEMON SHELL - D Pay a CP to get smite, with the risk of doing mortal wounds to yourself. At least you don't have to target the closest, but it will almost always be within 12" because your non-terminator characters will have pistols.
GIFTS OF CHAOS - B/D Legion dependent, some legions have the wargear to make an extra piece of kit worthwhile, but no one has the gear to make 3 cp for 2 extra worthwhile.
BESEECH THE CHAOS GODS - C Allows some flexibility on which strategems a unit can use, but it's only useful for units that where mutiple marks (and the strategems they unlock) might be approriate, So it's situational.
BLASPHEMOUS MACHINES - D I think preadator is the only heritic astartes vehicle that can benefit from this, and the benefit is firmly meh, so a meh ability on a meh unit.
CHAOS BOON - C The activation requirement is pretty common, so it's not hard to get off. It is strongly bell curved with the eye opens being the most likely (and most useful), and none of the buffs are bad, being more or less in line with what one could get for gifts of chaos. I ignore spawndom as a disadvantage because if you are willing to blow a CP on buffing a character, your probably willing to spend a second CP to not kill him. With that said I think this is better for spiking the ball than actually relying on it for a buff.
VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR - B +1 to wound in either shooting or CC is solid. Best when used to offset the disadvantage of attacking units with a high toughness, or to add some extra sting when shooting at units with a low toughness 2+.
FURY OF KHORNE - B Potent, but too expensive to be used frequently. It also happens at the end of the fight phase, which is less than ideal as you will have taken casulties by then. Plenty of special charaters in chaos that can use this to ruin someones day though.
GRANDFATHER’S BLESSINGS - C Heal a special character, or return a hopefully very expensive unit to play (probably a terminator). It's pricey but good when it's useful.
ENDLESS CACOPHONY - A Like fury of khorne but better, and cheaper. This is the reason havoks and obliterators now default to MoS, being able to double tap las cannons or fleshmetal weapons during an alpha strike is an insane advantage.
THE GREAT SORCERER - B Not much good for your namesless psychics, but very open to abuse by named characters who know more powers.
TIDE OF TRAITORS - B Despite thinking that cultist are so so, I think this is a legitimately good stratagem. The ability to psuedo deepstrike an ob sec unit and return it to full stregnth on or near an enemy objective can win games.
LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT - D requires three vindicators, which is a non-starter. Would have been a F but the amount of mortal wounds done by it is fairly respectable, and it can be used to snipe. If for some odd reason you have three vindicators (say in an apoc game), might be worth using, but certainly not worth taking three vindicators.
KILLSHOT - D- Requires three preadators, and the payout is a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles. Doesn't seem to justify the investment.
DAEMONFORGE - A the 4+ to hit is really holding most deamon vehicles back from shooting, 1 CP for reroll hits and wounds for a phase goes along way towards making them dangerous at range and beast mode in CC.
CHAOS FAMILIAR - B Flexibility is nice, for instance switching out death curse if your opponent doesn't have any invul saves.
FLAKK MISSILE - D More or less a havok's only stratagem, because it requires more than a single Missile launcher to be worth using, which really isn't ideal. You still have to roll to hit (but you get a +1 which might offset the supersonic rule), and the damage at top level is 4d3 mortal wounds which averages to six, not enough to actually kill a flyer. Like kill shot and linebreaker, if you've made poor comp choices, well here is your boobie prize.
FIRE FRENZY - B Cheap and good, can make a helbrute have the same output as a squad of havok's. Would be an A but it has three major shortcomings, it has to be the closest unit, the helbrute can not move, and it's helbrute only (they tend to go boom when an enemy even looks at them). This stratagem single handedly makes helbrutes not a terrible choice.
FORWARD OPERATIVES - A Very good Stratagem, it gives a unit better than deep strike (since they can move normally after revealing themselves). Use it to gain board position, or to drop off a nasty CC unit right on top of the enemy.
DARK PACT - C I'm not a huge fan of summoning, but a reroll and protection from doubles/triples is useful when you are summoning.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT - D 6+ FnP is pretty unimpressive.
SCORN OF SORCERY - C 50/50 chance of stopping a psychic power and does not even require a character. Obviously only useful against psychers, and powers that are worth a CP to stop.
EXCESS OF VIOLENCE - C Extra attacks are good, and it's cheap, but you have to be laying it down to get more than an extra kill or two out of this. If your kicking that much butt in CC, this is probably not nessecary.
IN MIDNIGHT CLAD - B Solid defensive skill, several times more effective than the iron warriors stratagem.
LET THE GALAXY BURN - B Reroll 1's to hit is a solid CP expendature. It's quite good for chaos space marines (the troop choice), but their shooting isn't impactful enough to warrant a CP expenditure. Might be fun for a 20 man blob of CSM with CCW and pistol to use it in CC, but a 20 man blob of CC focused CSM is probably less than ideal. Though big blobs of CSM seems to be the way GW wants black legion to roll based on their legion trait, this stratagem and abaddons command ability.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
Nothing but praise for noise marines on this thread, they're probably top 3 troops with berzerkers and cultist (in no paticular order). Although I havent heard of anyone infiltrating 40, let us know how it goes.
Grimgold wrote: Hey guys, I'm working on getting my black legion together and tournament worthy (I have a GT in less than a month). So I have spent a fair amount of time cruising this thread, and while there is lots of info here, it's scattered throughout dozens of pages interspersed with rules arguments, and other less helpful post. So I thought it might be helpful to condense the opinions of the board into something more easily perusable, and the way we did it in the necron thread was a report card. So to help me memorize and understand the stratagems I put together a report card for them, You guys think the below is a fair estimation of their effectiveness? Also would there be any interest in doing this for our units?
Spoiler:
DAEMON SHELL - D Pay a CP to get smite, with the risk of doing mortal wounds to yourself. At least you don't have to target the closest, but it will almost always be within 12" because your non-terminator characters will have pistols.
GIFTS OF CHAOS - B/D Legion dependent, some legions have the wargear to make an extra piece of kit worthwhile, but no one has the gear to make 3 cp for 2 extra worthwhile.
BESEECH THE CHAOS GODS - C Allows some flexibility on which strategems a unit can use, but it's only useful for units that where mutiple marks (and the strategems they unlock) might be approriate, So it's situational.
BLASPHEMOUS MACHINES - D I think preadator is the only heritic astartes vehicle that can benefit from this, and the benefit is firmly meh, so a meh ability on a meh unit.
CHAOS BOON - C The activation requirement is pretty common, so it's not hard to get off. It is strongly bell curved with the eye opens being the most likely (and most useful), and none of the buffs are bad, being more or less in line with what one could get for gifts of chaos. I ignore spawndom as a disadvantage because if you are willing to blow a CP on buffing a character, your probably willing to spend a second CP to not kill him. With that said I think this is better for spiking the ball than actually relying on it for a buff.
VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR - B +1 to wound in either shooting or CC is solid. Best when used to offset the disadvantage of attacking units with a high toughness, or to add some extra sting when shooting at units with a low toughness 2+.
FURY OF KHORNE - B Potent, but too expensive to be used frequently. It also happens at the end of the fight phase, which is less than ideal as you will have taken casulties by then. Plenty of special charaters in chaos that can use this to ruin someones day though.
GRANDFATHER’S BLESSINGS - C Heal a special character, or return a hopefully very expensive unit to play (probably a terminator). It's pricey but good when it's useful.
ENDLESS CACOPHONY - A Like fury of khorne but better, and cheaper. This is the reason havoks and obliterators now default to MoS, being able to double tap las cannons or fleshmetal weapons during an alpha strike is an insane advantage.
THE GREAT SORCERER - B Not much good for your namesless psychics, but very open to abuse by named characters who know more powers.
TIDE OF TRAITORS - B Despite thinking that cultist are so so, I think this is a legitimately good stratagem. The ability to psuedo deepstrike an ob sec unit and return it to full stregnth on or near an enemy objective can win games.
LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT - D requires three vindicators, which is a non-starter. Would have been a F but the amount of mortal wounds done by it is fairly respectable, and it can be used to snipe. If for some odd reason you have three vindicators (say in an apoc game), might be worth using, but certainly not worth taking three vindicators.
KILLSHOT - D- Requires three preadators, and the payout is a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles. Doesn't seem to justify the investment.
DAEMONFORGE - A the 4+ to hit is really holding most deamon vehicles back from shooting, 1 CP for reroll hits and wounds for a phase goes along way towards making them dangerous at range and beast mode in CC.
CHAOS FAMILIAR - B Flexibility is nice, for instance switching out death curse if your opponent doesn't have any invul saves.
FLAKK MISSILE - D More or less a havok's only stratagem, because it requires more than a single Missile launcher to be worth using, which really isn't ideal. You still have to roll to hit (but you get a +1 which might offset the supersonic rule), and the damage at top level is 4d3 mortal wounds which averages to six, not enough to actually kill a flyer. Like kill shot and linebreaker, if you've made poor comp choices, well here is your boobie prize.
FIRE FRENZY - B Cheap and good, can make a helbrute have the same output as a squad of havok's. Would be an A but it has three major shortcomings, it has to be the closest unit, the helbrute can not move, and it's helbrute only (they tend to go boom when an enemy even looks at them). This stratagem single handedly makes helbrutes not a terrible choice.
FORWARD OPERATIVES - A Very good Stratagem, it gives a unit better than deep strike (since they can move normally after revealing themselves). Use it to gain board position, or to drop off a nasty CC unit right on top of the enemy.
DARK PACT - C I'm not a huge fan of summoning, but a reroll and protection from doubles/triples is useful when you are summoning.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT - D 6+ FnP is pretty unimpressive.
SCORN OF SORCERY - C 50/50 chance of stopping a psychic power and does not even require a character. Obviously only useful against psychers, and powers that are worth a CP to stop.
EXCESS OF VIOLENCE - C Extra attacks are good, and it's cheap, but you have to be laying it down to get more than an extra kill or two out of this. If your kicking that much butt in CC, this is probably not nessecary.
IN MIDNIGHT CLAD - B Solid defensive skill, several times more effective than the iron warriors stratagem.
LET THE GALAXY BURN - B Reroll 1's to hit is a solid CP expendature. It's quite good for chaos space marines (the troop choice), but their shooting isn't impactful enough to warrant a CP expenditure. Might be fun for a 20 man blob of CSM with CCW and pistol to use it in CC, but a 20 man blob of CC focused CSM is probably less than ideal. Though big blobs of CSM seems to be the way GW wants black legion to roll based on their legion trait, this stratagem and abaddons command ability.
Though I don't agree on everything you've written I'd like to see that in the first post of this thread, very good work. I'd rate Kill shot and veterans of the long war higher, simply because predators are actually not bad and +1 to wound is awesome. I also think beseech the Chaos gods is pretty useless and would rate it lower.
Warpy0013 wrote: Not for the Fire Frenzy stratagem. You can use that anyway. And two Blastmasters firing twice is just nasty.
The Fire Frenzy stratagem isn't usable by units with the Helbrute keyword, it's only usable by the unit Helbrute. Several stratagems specify exact units they work with, like Daemon Prince or Chaos Cultists. When they allow an entire subset of units, the stratagem references a keyword and it is written as such. Helbrute is just another term like Infantry, Cavalry, or Vehicle. The stratagem has to specifically allow this subset if they are to receive the benefits of it, which Fire Frenzy does not do. It's also not likely an error since the Legion Traits in the Chaos Codex do have the Helbrute keyword instead of the unit reference. They make a clear distinction in two different spots in the same book. Likewise, when they FAQ added the Daemon Prince, they did not add the Daemon Prince KEYWORD but specifically the Daemon Prince, which denies other Daemon Princes (like if Be'lakor could be from a legion, or some forgeworld DP) from benefiting. The ForgeWorld FAQ added the Helbrute keyword to various units, which grants them Legion traits, but it still does not work with the Fire Frenzy stratagem.
Non-keyword entries are references to a specific unit. If they weren't, you'd get some rather weird results like the Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer being able to be used for Linebreaker Bombardment, & therefore not able to fire the Demolisher Cannons that they don't have. The stratagem does not reference Vindicator keyword units, it references the Vindicator specifically. Other Vindicators cannot use the stratagem (literally) and the same applies to the Helbrute issue.
I'm not following what your getting at here. Yes, the Fire Frenzy stratagem doesn't apply to the units the FW granted the Helbrute keyword too by FAQ. But your wrong on the Sonic Dreadnought which by FAQ is a Helbrute with two additional weapons options. It uses the same Datasheet so it obviously has on the same keywords as the Helbrute excluding the faction Keywords EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and SLAANESH. So, it can use the Fire Frenzy stratagem just fine.
Grimgold wrote: Hey guys, I'm working on getting my black legion together and tournament worthy (I have a GT in less than a month). So I have spent a fair amount of time cruising this thread, and while there is lots of info here, it's scattered throughout dozens of pages interspersed with rules arguments, and other less helpful post. So I thought it might be helpful to condense the opinions of the board into something more easily perusable, and the way we did it in the necron thread was a report card. So to help me memorize and understand the stratagems I put together a report card for them, You guys think the below is a fair estimation of their effectiveness? Also would there be any interest in doing this for our units?
Spoiler:
DAEMON SHELL - D Pay a CP to get smite, with the risk of doing mortal wounds to yourself. At least you don't have to target the closest, but it will almost always be within 12" because your non-terminator characters will have pistols.
GIFTS OF CHAOS - B/D Legion dependent, some legions have the wargear to make an extra piece of kit worthwhile, but no one has the gear to make 3 cp for 2 extra worthwhile.
BESEECH THE CHAOS GODS - C Allows some flexibility on which strategems a unit can use, but it's only useful for units that where mutiple marks (and the strategems they unlock) might be approriate, So it's situational.
BLASPHEMOUS MACHINES - D I think preadator is the only heritic astartes vehicle that can benefit from this, and the benefit is firmly meh, so a meh ability on a meh unit.
CHAOS BOON - C The activation requirement is pretty common, so it's not hard to get off. It is strongly bell curved with the eye opens being the most likely (and most useful), and none of the buffs are bad, being more or less in line with what one could get for gifts of chaos. I ignore spawndom as a disadvantage because if you are willing to blow a CP on buffing a character, your probably willing to spend a second CP to not kill him. With that said I think this is better for spiking the ball than actually relying on it for a buff.
VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR - B +1 to wound in either shooting or CC is solid. Best when used to offset the disadvantage of attacking units with a high toughness, or to add some extra sting when shooting at units with a low toughness 2+.
FURY OF KHORNE - B Potent, but too expensive to be used frequently. It also happens at the end of the fight phase, which is less than ideal as you will have taken casulties by then. Plenty of special charaters in chaos that can use this to ruin someones day though.
GRANDFATHER’S BLESSINGS - C Heal a special character, or return a hopefully very expensive unit to play (probably a terminator). It's pricey but good when it's useful.
ENDLESS CACOPHONY - A Like fury of khorne but better, and cheaper. This is the reason havoks and obliterators now default to MoS, being able to double tap las cannons or fleshmetal weapons during an alpha strike is an insane advantage.
THE GREAT SORCERER - B Not much good for your namesless psychics, but very open to abuse by named characters who know more powers.
TIDE OF TRAITORS - B Despite thinking that cultist are so so, I think this is a legitimately good stratagem. The ability to psuedo deepstrike an ob sec unit and return it to full stregnth on or near an enemy objective can win games.
LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT - D requires three vindicators, which is a non-starter. Would have been a F but the amount of mortal wounds done by it is fairly respectable, and it can be used to snipe. If for some odd reason you have three vindicators (say in an apoc game), might be worth using, but certainly not worth taking three vindicators.
KILLSHOT - D- Requires three preadators, and the payout is a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles. Doesn't seem to justify the investment.
DAEMONFORGE - A the 4+ to hit is really holding most deamon vehicles back from shooting, 1 CP for reroll hits and wounds for a phase goes along way towards making them dangerous at range and beast mode in CC.
CHAOS FAMILIAR - B Flexibility is nice, for instance switching out death curse if your opponent doesn't have any invul saves.
FLAKK MISSILE - D More or less a havok's only stratagem, because it requires more than a single Missile launcher to be worth using, which really isn't ideal. You still have to roll to hit (but you get a +1 which might offset the supersonic rule), and the damage at top level is 4d3 mortal wounds which averages to six, not enough to actually kill a flyer. Like kill shot and linebreaker, if you've made poor comp choices, well here is your boobie prize.
FIRE FRENZY - B Cheap and good, can make a helbrute have the same output as a squad of havok's. Would be an A but it has three major shortcomings, it has to be the closest unit, the helbrute can not move, and it's helbrute only (they tend to go boom when an enemy even looks at them). This stratagem single handedly makes helbrutes not a terrible choice.
FORWARD OPERATIVES - A Very good Stratagem, it gives a unit better than deep strike (since they can move normally after revealing themselves). Use it to gain board position, or to drop off a nasty CC unit right on top of the enemy.
DARK PACT - C I'm not a huge fan of summoning, but a reroll and protection from doubles/triples is useful when you are summoning.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT - D 6+ FnP is pretty unimpressive.
SCORN OF SORCERY - C 50/50 chance of stopping a psychic power and does not even require a character. Obviously only useful against psychers, and powers that are worth a CP to stop.
EXCESS OF VIOLENCE - C Extra attacks are good, and it's cheap, but you have to be laying it down to get more than an extra kill or two out of this. If your kicking that much butt in CC, this is probably not nessecary.
IN MIDNIGHT CLAD - B Solid defensive skill, several times more effective than the iron warriors stratagem.
LET THE GALAXY BURN - B Reroll 1's to hit is a solid CP expendature. It's quite good for chaos space marines (the troop choice), but their shooting isn't impactful enough to warrant a CP expenditure. Might be fun for a 20 man blob of CSM with CCW and pistol to use it in CC, but a 20 man blob of CC focused CSM is probably less than ideal. Though big blobs of CSM seems to be the way GW wants black legion to roll based on their legion trait, this stratagem and abaddons command ability.
I'd say that Veterans of the Long War was a solid A. Beseech is just a waste of CP, and I wouldn't rate Daemon forge as highly.
Like most of them Daemon forge is situational. But crazy good on a Lord of Skulls. Used it recently to put down Swarm lord with 3 Tyrant guard in one turn of shooting without particularly good rolling.
Sersi wrote: I'm not following what your getting at here. Yes, the Fire Frenzy stratagem doesn't apply to the units the FW granted the Helbrute keyword too by FAQ. But your wrong on the Sonic Dreadnought which by FAQ is a Helbrute with two additional weapons options. It uses the same Datasheet so it obviously has on the same keywords as the Helbrute excluding the faction Keywords EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and SLAANESH. So, it can use the Fire Frenzy stratagem just fine.
It's a point of contention. Currently the rules aren't explicit as to what the name of the unit is supposed to be. They reference it, define it as, an Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought. Using the Helbrute datasheet doesn't necessarily make it a Helbrute but since we no clear instruction to change the name to Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, I would still allow the interpretation. From an intent standpoint, I think the stratagem was made with a clear idea of what weapons would be firing (ones from the codex the stratagem is pulled from) and the FW/Sonic versions wouldn't apply. If Forgeworld is going to be releasing their own books for these models, they might want to come out with some stratagems too.
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
I play mostly Emperor's Children so I use them as my base troops. Usually msu with blasters and a blastmaster with a screen of cultist around them.
Every game I have taken them in though they do work. Their death ability is great. They put out a lot of dakka. I don't think they are the best endless cacophony targets though especially when you have things like Obliterators and havocs around that can do a lot more damage to targets. But I also don't run them in groups of 20. Which would be 400 points or something close to that per group. Damn.
Maybe try a proxy game with normal marines to see how you like them before going balls to the wall building them.
Grimgold wrote: Hey guys, I'm working on getting my black legion together and tournament worthy (I have a GT in less than a month). So I have spent a fair amount of time cruising this thread, and while there is lots of info here, it's scattered throughout dozens of pages interspersed with rules arguments, and other less helpful post. So I thought it might be helpful to condense the opinions of the board into something more easily perusable, and the way we did it in the necron thread was a report card. So to help me memorize and understand the stratagems I put together a report card for them, You guys think the below is a fair estimation of their effectiveness? Also would there be any interest in doing this for our units?
Spoiler:
DAEMON SHELL - D Pay a CP to get smite, with the risk of doing mortal wounds to yourself. At least you don't have to target the closest, but it will almost always be within 12" because your non-terminator characters will have pistols.
GIFTS OF CHAOS - B/D Legion dependent, some legions have the wargear to make an extra piece of kit worthwhile, but no one has the gear to make 3 cp for 2 extra worthwhile.
BESEECH THE CHAOS GODS - C Allows some flexibility on which strategems a unit can use, but it's only useful for units that where mutiple marks (and the strategems they unlock) might be approriate, So it's situational.
BLASPHEMOUS MACHINES - D I think preadator is the only heritic astartes vehicle that can benefit from this, and the benefit is firmly meh, so a meh ability on a meh unit.
CHAOS BOON - C The activation requirement is pretty common, so it's not hard to get off. It is strongly bell curved with the eye opens being the most likely (and most useful), and none of the buffs are bad, being more or less in line with what one could get for gifts of chaos. I ignore spawndom as a disadvantage because if you are willing to blow a CP on buffing a character, your probably willing to spend a second CP to not kill him. With that said I think this is better for spiking the ball than actually relying on it for a buff.
VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR - B +1 to wound in either shooting or CC is solid. Best when used to offset the disadvantage of attacking units with a high toughness, or to add some extra sting when shooting at units with a low toughness 2+.
FURY OF KHORNE - B Potent, but too expensive to be used frequently. It also happens at the end of the fight phase, which is less than ideal as you will have taken casulties by then. Plenty of special charaters in chaos that can use this to ruin someones day though.
GRANDFATHER’S BLESSINGS - C Heal a special character, or return a hopefully very expensive unit to play (probably a terminator). It's pricey but good when it's useful.
ENDLESS CACOPHONY - A Like fury of khorne but better, and cheaper. This is the reason havoks and obliterators now default to MoS, being able to double tap las cannons or fleshmetal weapons during an alpha strike is an insane advantage.
THE GREAT SORCERER - B Not much good for your namesless psychics, but very open to abuse by named characters who know more powers.
TIDE OF TRAITORS - B Despite thinking that cultist are so so, I think this is a legitimately good stratagem. The ability to psuedo deepstrike an ob sec unit and return it to full stregnth on or near an enemy objective can win games.
LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT - D requires three vindicators, which is a non-starter. Would have been a F but the amount of mortal wounds done by it is fairly respectable, and it can be used to snipe. If for some odd reason you have three vindicators (say in an apoc game), might be worth using, but certainly not worth taking three vindicators.
KILLSHOT - D- Requires three preadators, and the payout is a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles. Doesn't seem to justify the investment.
DAEMONFORGE - A the 4+ to hit is really holding most deamon vehicles back from shooting, 1 CP for reroll hits and wounds for a phase goes along way towards making them dangerous at range and beast mode in CC.
CHAOS FAMILIAR - B Flexibility is nice, for instance switching out death curse if your opponent doesn't have any invul saves.
FLAKK MISSILE - D More or less a havok's only stratagem, because it requires more than a single Missile launcher to be worth using, which really isn't ideal. You still have to roll to hit (but you get a +1 which might offset the supersonic rule), and the damage at top level is 4d3 mortal wounds which averages to six, not enough to actually kill a flyer. Like kill shot and linebreaker, if you've made poor comp choices, well here is your boobie prize.
FIRE FRENZY - B Cheap and good, can make a helbrute have the same output as a squad of havok's. Would be an A but it has three major shortcomings, it has to be the closest unit, the helbrute can not move, and it's helbrute only (they tend to go boom when an enemy even looks at them). This stratagem single handedly makes helbrutes not a terrible choice.
FORWARD OPERATIVES - A Very good Stratagem, it gives a unit better than deep strike (since they can move normally after revealing themselves). Use it to gain board position, or to drop off a nasty CC unit right on top of the enemy.
DARK PACT - C I'm not a huge fan of summoning, but a reroll and protection from doubles/triples is useful when you are summoning.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT - D 6+ FnP is pretty unimpressive.
SCORN OF SORCERY - C 50/50 chance of stopping a psychic power and does not even require a character. Obviously only useful against psychers, and powers that are worth a CP to stop.
EXCESS OF VIOLENCE - C Extra attacks are good, and it's cheap, but you have to be laying it down to get more than an extra kill or two out of this. If your kicking that much butt in CC, this is probably not nessecary.
IN MIDNIGHT CLAD - B Solid defensive skill, several times more effective than the iron warriors stratagem.
LET THE GALAXY BURN - B Reroll 1's to hit is a solid CP expendature. It's quite good for chaos space marines (the troop choice), but their shooting isn't impactful enough to warrant a CP expenditure. Might be fun for a 20 man blob of CSM with CCW and pistol to use it in CC, but a 20 man blob of CC focused CSM is probably less than ideal. Though big blobs of CSM seems to be the way GW wants black legion to roll based on their legion trait, this stratagem and abaddons command ability.
Though I don't agree on everything you've written I'd like to see that in the first post of this thread, very good work. I'd rate Kill shot and veterans of the long war higher, simply because predators are actually not bad and +1 to wound is awesome. I also think beseech the Chaos gods is pretty useless and would rate it lower.
Second first paging this, and recommendations. Beseech is trash tier, I'd rank it F as it's paying a CP to get something you could take for free during list construction, it doesn't let you stack Marks, and nobody's thought of a useful gambit/gimmick that uses it.
Flakk Missile only affects a single ML. It's actually not bad if you've got one in a CSM squad, an accuracy buff, and need to take down a crippled aircraft - that would have won it for me a few weeks ago.
Chaos Familiar opens up a ploy where your opponent locks down a Warptime caster and another psyker out of DTW range switches to learn it and throws a Kharybdis into the middle of the enemy army.
Killshot is pretty good but we're awaiting how it relates to Hellforged Predators and fixed damage weapons. 5D6 of D2-3 auto hits could be a game changer.
Vindicator can use Blasphemous Machines.
Scorn of Sorcery can block Magnus casting Smite on a 14, and a Weirdboy casting a winning Da Jump on a 27. That's really good.
New player to CSM here - but since I have Daemon models and I have Space Marines, I figured it was only appropriate to take the next logical step
Do people find Obliterators more or less useful than MSU Chaos Bikers with plasma guns? I'm playing a game later this evening using the Black Legion trait and I can't decide whether I'd like more of one or the other. They seem, at least from my experience, to be roughly equivalent in a lot of ways.
Obliterators have a better armor save, more Wounds per model, better range, more reliable alpha strike via Deep Strike, and their guns will typically have higher strength and damage.
Chaos Bikers have better toughness, more Wounds per point, better mobility, better AP on their guns, and better synergy with the Black Legion Warlord trait.
Am I missing anything here? Anyone have some experience they'd care to share with a new CSM player?
My list + tactics are spoilered below, in case anyone wants to take a look to provide more tailored advice
Spoiler:
100 PL Battallion Detachment
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
Spearhead Detachment
Abaddon the Despoiler
5x Warp Talons
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
Basic strategy is to have Plaguebearers and Princes on the table start of game. If opponent gets turn one, he can't shoot at my Daemon Princes and is forced to shoot at my Plaguebearers with -1 to hit for the turn. When my turn one comes up I advance everything forward (possibly holding back a squad of Plaguebearers for objectives), then Deep Strike in Abaddon + Obliterators + Warp Talons to have everything in opponent's face. My concern with swapping in bikers is that they will potentially give up first blood on turn one, but they're definitely more useful for grabbing objectives late game.
DT:80+S++G++M--B--IPw40k11+D+A+++/cWD-R+++T(D)DM+ 8000, mostly painted
14000, all over the place
PrinceOfMadness wrote: New player to CSM here - but since I have Daemon models and I have Space Marines, I figured it was only appropriate to take the next logical step
Do people find Obliterators more or less useful than MSU Chaos Bikers with plasma guns? I'm playing a game later this evening using the Black Legion trait and I can't decide whether I'd like more of one or the other. They seem, at least from my experience, to be roughly equivalent in a lot of ways.
Obliterators have a better armor save, more Wounds per model, better range, more reliable alpha strike via Deep Strike, and their guns will typically have higher strength and damage.
Chaos Bikers have better toughness, more Wounds per point, better mobility, better AP on their guns, and better synergy with the Black Legion Warlord trait.
Am I missing anything here? Anyone have some experience they'd care to share with a new CSM player?
My list + tactics are spoilered below, in case anyone wants to take a look to provide more tailored advice
Spoiler:
100 PL Battallion Detachment
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
Spearhead Detachment
Abaddon the Despoiler
5x Warp Talons
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
Basic strategy is to have Plaguebearers and Princes on the table start of game. If opponent gets turn one, he can't shoot at my Daemon Princes and is forced to shoot at my Plaguebearers with -1 to hit for the turn. When my turn one comes up I advance everything forward (possibly holding back a squad of Plaguebearers for objectives), then Deep Strike in Abaddon + Obliterators + Warp Talons to have everything in opponent's face. My concern with swapping in bikers is that they will potentially give up first blood on turn one, but they're definitely more useful for grabbing objectives late game.
That looks like a solid list. I'd not be too fussed about Bikers, I think you've got it going good there. With all those Nurgle Daemon units, have you considered Epidemius and a Herald with Fleshy Abundance? Abaddon seems somewhat overkill when you already have wide re-roll 1's coverage. With the leftover Power, you could take some Nurglings for early disruption or a cheap HQ to fill out a Supreme Command for a CP. Or switch out the Warp Talons to try the Bikers and have 5 Power to try other things, maybe a second Herald for Virulent Blessing.
That looks like a solid list. I'd not be too fussed about Bikers, I think you've got it going good there. With all those Nurgle Daemon units, have you considered Epidemius and a Herald with Fleshy Abundance? Abaddon seems somewhat overkill when you already have wide re-roll 1's coverage. With the leftover Power, you could take some Nurglings for early disruption or a cheap HQ to fill out a Supreme Command for a CP. Or switch out the Warp Talons to try the Bikers and have 5 Power to try other things, maybe a second Herald for Virulent Blessing.
I hadn't considered Epidemius because I was only looking at the CSM codex - he looks like a solid investment, but my understanding from reading his 'Tally of Pestilence' is that while all of my units would contribute towards the Tally, the benefits would only affect my Daemon Princes and Plaguebearers - correct?
Where can I find the rules for Fleshy Abundance? I don't see it as an option in the Chaos Index or CSM book.
DT:80+S++G++M--B--IPw40k11+D+A+++/cWD-R+++T(D)DM+ 8000, mostly painted
14000, all over the place
Is this legal and/or worth the points? Chaos lord on bike. Intoxicating elixir. Combi-flamer. Power fist. Mark of Slaanesh. 138 pts. Or is a chaos lord with jump pack, dark apostle, or exalted champion worth more in points? Especially with 20 khorne berserkers in rhinos with no other
bikes in the army. What should I do with my daemon prince if I acquire Abaddon with 2 hqs? Thanks.
That looks like a solid list. I'd not be too fussed about Bikers, I think you've got it going good there. With all those Nurgle Daemon units, have you considered Epidemius and a Herald with Fleshy Abundance? Abaddon seems somewhat overkill when you already have wide re-roll 1's coverage. With the leftover Power, you could take some Nurglings for early disruption or a cheap HQ to fill out a Supreme Command for a CP. Or switch out the Warp Talons to try the Bikers and have 5 Power to try other things, maybe a second Herald for Virulent Blessing.
I hadn't considered Epidemius because I was only looking at the CSM codex - he looks like a solid investment, but my understanding from reading his 'Tally of Pestilence' is that while all of my units would contribute towards the Tally, the benefits would only affect my Daemon Princes and Plaguebearers - correct?
Where can I find the rules for Fleshy Abundance? I don't see it as an option in the Chaos Index or CSM book.
Once the game begins, Faction Keywords are also general Keywords - as long as NURGLE and DAEMON appear in any of your keywords, you fuel and are buffed by Epidemius. Can't remember where this is FAQ'd, it's somewhere in the previous 90 pages When it comes time to go up to 150pow, Abaddon coming back with a pack of Daemon Engines (who definitely appreciate full rerolls) might well be a solid gunline
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BillyN831 wrote: Is this legal and/or worth the points? Chaos lord on bike. Intoxicating elixir. Combi-flamer. Power fist. Mark of Slaanesh. 138 pts. Or is a chaos lord with jump pack, dark apostle, or exalted champion worth more in points? Especially with 20 khorne berserkers in rhinos with no other bikes in the army. What should I do with my daemon prince if I acquire Abaddon with 2 hqs? Thanks.
Bikelord looks pretty good. He would get an extra attack and be able to Advance & charge if he rode a Steed of Slaanesh. IE is more effective on Daemon Princes, though.
Berzerkers in Rhinos need mobile aura support. Their characters want to ride with them, or have high movement. DA and EC have brilliant synergy (especially if the champions have power fists) but you'll have to clear space in the Rhinos. Or! Take their own command Rhino, with some smaller unit in there with them, perhaps Melta Havocs or Chosen.
I don't quite get what you're asking about Abaddon?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/15 16:58:46
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
Nothing but praise for noise marines on this thread, they're probably top 3 troops with berzerkers and cultist (in no paticular order). Although I havent heard of anyone infiltrating 40, let us know how it goes.
Yes, Noise Marines are very good but do not confuse them with a silver bullet. Strong AV, buffs, and other secondary threats need to be part of lists for the NMs to become the true terrors that they are on the board.
Infiltrating 2 squads of 20 concerns me. That would be about 1,000 points of Noise Marines who are not going to have close combat weapons b/c of their sonics. There's a good chance half your army would get shut down in CC by the second turn. The other thing that bothers me about 20 man units is wound allocation. You have to allocate where all those shots are going before you shoot, it feels like either a) a lot of shots would be wasted or b) not enough shots will go on the right targets.
A few things to consider:
- You have a 24 inch range with those guns. Do you really need to infiltrate? If so, don't put them anywhere near the enemy. Stand them back as far as you can while still reaching the units you want to kill.
- Rerolls make a huge difference. Given the volume of fire, there is no better use for a CL or a DP early game than just standing near a squad of NMs. It's the difference between 50% and 75% of your shots hitting.
- Your massed fire will not do much against anything that's tougher than infantry. Anything you can do to add Lascannons to the backfield will be important.
- Smaller squads and screens might be the answer to the problems described above. Might.
Saying all this as a Black Legion player who runs Noise Marines. I like to drop 2x10 squads out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw, leaving them very exposed. It's good to have them close in to fire, but they need a supporting cast to stay alive.
To give them that, I bring Abaddon to give them rerolls on failed shots and a 5+ DttFE. When they disembark, they usually target things like Devastators, Tyrannid Warriors, Wraithguard, etc - any heavy infantry that could damage the armor in my backfield. Their job is to neutralize heavy weapons, they don't care about things that could shoot them up.
By the time everyone is set up, there are usually 3 big threats on the table: the NMs + Abaddon shooting everything up, the KAC + Laspreds eating vehicles, and a DP + Cultists advancing up the board. Opponents cannot devote all their firepower to a single threat, which means my Noise Marines are probably going to survive a few turns.
I generally place the KAC about 15 inches away from the line, to set it up to charge a vehicle. This puts the Noise Marines out just far enough that it's hard (but not impossible) to charge them the next turn. They are going to do a lot of overwatch shots and more often than not escape being charged. I want the NMs to take casualties & use Music of the Apocalypse to snipe enemy characters, with the BL morale buff I am can deal with losing a few models.
Provided everything goes right, the NMs come out as the MVPs of each game. When it goes wrong, there are more than a few ways to rebound. Have had all my Noise Marines wiped out in a single turn, only to have Abaddon move directly into cc and start eating troops. Have missed the Warptime on the KAC, but that meant the Predators do more damage from their side of the board. Have had the DP go down to smite spam from GK, only for the cultists to get a charge the next turn.
So, support those NMs somehow. Imbalance works against you with these guys.
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
Nothing but praise for noise marines on this thread, they're probably top 3 troops with berzerkers and cultist (in no paticular order). Although I havent heard of anyone infiltrating 40, let us know how it goes.
Yes, Noise Marines are very good but do not confuse them with a silver bullet. Strong AV, buffs, and other secondary threats need to be part of lists for the NMs to become the true terrors that they are on the board.
Infiltrating 2 squads of 20 concerns me. That would be about 1,000 points of Noise Marines who are not going to have close combat weapons b/c of their sonics. There's a good chance half your army would get shut down in CC by the second turn. The other thing that bothers me about 20 man units is wound allocation. You have to allocate where all those shots are going before you shoot, it feels like either a) a lot of shots would be wasted or b) not enough shots will go on the right targets.
A few things to consider:
- You have a 24 inch range with those guns. Do you really need to infiltrate? If so, don't put them anywhere near the enemy. Stand them back as far as you can while still reaching the units you want to kill.
- Rerolls make a huge difference. Given the volume of fire, there is no better use for a CL or a DP early game than just standing near a squad of NMs. It's the difference between 50% and 75% of your shots hitting.
- Your massed fire will not do much against anything that's tougher than infantry. Anything you can do to add Lascannons to the backfield will be important.
- Smaller squads and screens might be the answer to the problems described above. Might.
Saying all this as a Black Legion player who runs Noise Marines. I like to drop 2x10 squads out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw, leaving them very exposed. It's good to have them close in to fire, but they need a supporting cast to stay alive.
To give them that, I bring Abaddon to give them rerolls on failed shots and a 5+ DttFE. When they disembark, they usually target things like Devastators, Tyrannid Warriors, Wraithguard, etc - any heavy infantry that could damage the armor in my backfield. Their job is to neutralize heavy weapons, they don't care about things that could shoot them up.
By the time everyone is set up, there are usually 3 big threats on the table: the NMs + Abaddon shooting everything up, the KAC + Laspreds eating vehicles, and a DP + Cultists advancing up the board. Opponents cannot devote all their firepower to a single threat, which means my Noise Marines are probably going to survive a few turns.
I generally place the KAC about 15 inches away from the line, to set it up to charge a vehicle. This puts the Noise Marines out just far enough that it's hard (but not impossible) to charge them the next turn. They are going to do a lot of overwatch shots and more often than not escape being charged. I want the NMs to take casualties & use Music of the Apocalypse to snipe enemy characters, with the BL morale buff I am can deal with losing a few models.
Provided everything goes right, the NMs come out as the MVPs of each game. When it goes wrong, there are more than a few ways to rebound. Have had all my Noise Marines wiped out in a single turn, only to have Abaddon move directly into cc and start eating troops. Have missed the Warptime on the KAC, but that meant the Predators do more damage from their side of the board. Have had the DP go down to smite spam from GK, only for the cultists to get a charge the next turn.
So, support those NMs somehow. Imbalance works against you with these guys.
Oh, for sure. They'll always be accompanied by either a Sorcerer and Chaos Lord, or just a Lord at least.
I went with the Kharybdis for now, but i'll expand into Noise Marines over time.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Though I don't agree on everything you've written I'd like to see that in the first post of this thread, very good work. I'd rate Kill shot and veterans of the long war higher, simply because predators are actually not bad and +1 to wound is awesome. I also think beseech the Chaos gods is pretty useless and would rate it lower.
I rated beseech the gods as a C because there are units that could benefit from multiple marks, like terminators switching to nurgle to get a casualty back or to khorne for an extra round of combat. That is situational, but if you include unmarked units in your list just the possibility of this stratagem forces good opponents to plan for multiple outcomes. That's the nice part about it, you don't even have to use it for it to be useful.
Sersi wrote:
I'd say that Veterans of the Long War was a solid A. Beseech is just a waste of CP, and I wouldn't rate Daemon forge as highly.
I could be talked up to an A on VotLW. As for deamon forge, I was thinking of the defiler, lord of skulls, and hell drake, all of which seem to be on the bubble of being useful. Toss a CP at them and they can lay down some hurt at range and become absolute beasts in CC.
lindsay40k wrote: Second first paging this, and recommendations. Beseech is trash tier, I'd rank it F as it's paying a CP to get something you could take for free during list construction, it doesn't let you stack Marks, and nobody's thought of a useful gambit/gimmick that uses it.
Flakk Missile only affects a single ML. It's actually not bad if you've got one in a CSM squad, an accuracy buff, and need to take down a crippled aircraft - that would have won it for me a few weeks ago.
Chaos Familiar opens up a ploy where your opponent locks down a Warptime caster and another psyker out of DTW range switches to learn it and throws a Kharybdis into the middle of the enemy army.
Killshot is pretty good but we're awaiting how it relates to Hellforged Predators and fixed damage weapons. 5D6 of D2-3 auto hits could be a game changer.
Vindicator can use Blasphemous Machines.
Scorn of Sorcery can block Magnus casting Smite on a 14, and a Weirdboy casting a winning Da Jump on a 27. That's really good.
I miss read Flakk missile it's even more awful than I thought, let's say you are shooting at a unit with fly here is how the math breaks down:
Flak missile: 5/6 * 2 = 1.66 wounds Krak missile: 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 1.3 wounds against something with a toughness 7 and a 3+ armor save. You are paying a CP for .36 wounds, which is the worst exchange for CP out of all of the strats. Downgrading it to an F because you should never use this.
Scorn is a 50/50 chance to stop a power, so it's not reliable, and It's value is directly proportional to how good the power it's stopping is. The fact anyone can do it is the big plus, which is why I didn't rate it lower, even still a Brass collar and/or an allied psycher (yes I know it's unfluffy) seem much more reliable, and I'd have a hard time putting it in the same category as Let the galaxy burn or in midnight clad which are always useful.
I may have to change my mind on kill shot, +1 to damage is huge, it can boost a quad-las predators damage by just shy of half again and the damage boost for an autocannon is even better. Still not sold on three predators, which seems like the kind of thing you do when tailoring a list as opposed to making a TAC list. Since this only affects one of them at a time (being a possessive ' as opposed to leaving it off which would make it plural), your going to get 3ish extra wounds for a CP, which isn't bad rate of return. Probably upgrade it to a C.
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Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
Cephalobeard wrote: Well, I took the Plunge, boys. Went for the Ol' Kharybdis.
Soon my Zerkers will be riding in style. I'm incredibly excited.
Anyone doing anything fancy with theirs? Anyone have any tips for building the damn thing?
Personally going to fill it up with the ol' Dark Apostle, Exalted Champion and 2x 9 Zerkers build.
You'll be riding in style indeed... I have used my Kharybdis in half my games since I got it (in part to justify the insane investment) and it has always performed as I would hope. I wouldn't say its an auto-include in high level competitive games, but I also won't say it isn't tournament viable. I honestly love it, as it has psychological impact on the game, and is finally a delivery system which can earn back its points after dropping off cargo.
It also saves AP on redeploying those Noise Marines (and, to answer your earlier question, in early testing, a unit of 20 of them has almost always earned back their points for me. TERRIFIC unit, and a particularly efficient recipient of VotLW combined with Endless Cacophony in the same turn)
As an addition to the above... I actually don't love Berserkers in the Kharybdis. Yes, its the obvious choice and successful, BUT the Khary itself will want to be the recipient of Warptime, meaning there's a 70-ish percent chance the Berserkers wont' get to do what they do. Infiltrating them still gives them a move in the first turn, giving you more assured threat vectors, in exchange for minor risk of not going first and needing to redeploy them somewhere more central, and in cover.
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). I think Bikes are pretty solid for Chaos, although I'm not sure Meltas are the best choice for them. Plasma is probably better. Definitely a good idea to mark them Slaanesh and use the double tap stratagem; this could be hilarious against a big blob of Conscripts/Ork Boyz/Cultists while running flamers or something.
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1300 | Tyranids: 
~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
I'd rate Kill shot and veterans of the long war higher, simply because predators are actually not bad and +1 to wound is awesome. I also think beseech the Chaos gods is pretty useless and would rate it lower.
8000, mostly painted
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)