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On the flip side, summoning does bypass the detachment limit, so if you really want some extra daemons without polluting your pure detachments, it's a way to do it.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
On the flip side, summoning does bypass the detachment limit, so if you really want some extra daemons without polluting your pure detachments, it's a way to do it.

This is how I do it, too. Additionally it gives flexibility for summoning rolls.

In my mixed WE/NL army, I have 100 pts set aside for Khorne summoning from Kharn or the Exalted Champ. That 100 pts gets me ideally 12 Bloodletters w/icon if I roll 8 or more, or 8 Furies if I roll a 6 or 7, or 5 Flesh Hounds with a bad roll of 5.

On the flipflipside, it fails to acquire daemon detachment benefits, and they are pretty tasty.

Yeah, this Codex looks set to be adding opportunity costs to Summnoning, not making it more viable. Oh, great, I can burn a CP to roll an extra dice for it - add that to my Word Bearers Stratagem, and not moving a character gives me an ok-ish chance of Summoning in a Bloodthirster with a small landing zone and no pregame upgrades.

The Word Bearers got boned.

Perhaps a bit off-topic, but I finally figured out the reason that I haven't been having any luck with my Berzerkers. I've been playing them as Strength 4! Their base Strength is 5. I feel like such an idiot, as that has cost me games.

Read your rules and stats, kids. I'm just glad I figured it out before Adepticon so I can plan accordingly.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but I finally figured out the reason that I haven't been having any luck with my Berzerkers. I've been playing them as Strength 4! Their base Strength is 5. I feel like such an idiot, as that has cost me games.

Read your rules and stats, kids. I'm just glad I figured it out before Adepticon so I can plan accordingly.

Add chain axes to the and they are str 6. Even plauge marines don't like axe beserkers.

With regard to the 99% certainty that DAEMON units can burn CP to deep strike, I’ll invite Death Guard players in particular to note that a Sorcerer or Lord on Daemonic Steed has the DAEMON keyword...

(DG of course particularly benefitting from the RAW interpretation that a Palanquin Sorcerer has access to Warptime, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Prescience... have fun, Morty!)

Deep striking blood slaughterers.

about alpha legion forward operative stratagem: ijust read unit emerge from shadow BEFORE turn start, that mean i can normally move and assault?

Yes, that's part of why its so goddamn strong.

Played 2K Khorne Deamonkin against Blood Angels and Thousand Sons with Magnus. Won both games through shear mass of assaulting bodies.

CSM Battalion - World Eaters
- Deamon Prince with Wings - Talons, Collar
- Exalted Champ - Power Axe

- Cultists x10
- Zerkers x8 - axe + sword, champ powerfist
- Zerkers x8 - axe + sword, champ powerfist

- Blood Slaughterer Impailer
- Blood Slaughterer Impailer

- Rhino
- Rhino

Deamons Battalion - Khorne
- Herald on Juggernaught - Crimson Crown
- Karanak

- Bloodletters x30 - icon + instrument
- Bloodletters x10 - icon
- Bloodletters x10 - icon

- Flesh Hounds x20

Both lists I went against were low model mount elite armies. He charged his Sanguinary Guard and Deathwatch into my Flesh Hounds, then my Characters rolled in and mopped him up. His Thousand Sons were low model count and couldn't stop my advance, so I surrounded all his units turn 2 and he called it. The Bloodletter Bomb in reserve + 3D6 move wiped out anything it went against. The Blood Slaughterers are amazing if they make it into combat. The Rhinos of Berzerkers never made it in because the Bloodletters and Flesh Hounds did all the work for me, plus my Deamon Prince.

I'll be facing Nids and a more focused Blood Angels list next Sunday. Should be interesting.

I just noticed in CSM (assume daemons is the same) bloodletters are PL4 so that means with the DS strat you can whack 20 of them down for 1CP!

Actually quite excited for supplementing my WE with some daemons now, not gonna be the most competitive offerings ever but sure gonna be fun:

pre-codex launch idea:

A Sorcercer/Lord with Jetpack got deepstrike too without burning CP no ?

 DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
A Sorcercer/Lord with Jetpack got deepstrike too without burning CP no ?

There actually isnt one as an option! code or index

you can take one in terminator armour though and they got a nice pts cut in Chapter approved

 Latro_ wrote:

 DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
A Sorcercer/Lord with Jetpack got deepstrike too without burning CP no ?

There actually isnt one as an option! code or index

you can take one in terminator armour though and they got a nice pts cut in Chapter approved

Re-read your index.

oh ofc they can take one as a upgrade! so used to seeing stuff like this spilt out into a new entry in 8th

Slaanesh keeps getting amazing Daemon prince builds, i'd argue that (other than the primarchs) Slaanesh has the 2 best daemon princes. Intoxicating Elixir claw prince is a proven beast, but how does it stack up to the new comer the soulstealer prince ?

Intoxicating Elixir claw: prince 8 str 8, ap-2, D2 attacks hitting on 2+ with re-roll to hit.

Also has access to legion tactics except world eater's some of which are amazing like the alpha legions like -1 to hit vs range attacks that are more than 12 inch away.

vs

Soulstealer prince: 4 str 8, ap-3, D3 attacks hitting on 2+ with re-roll to hit, where every lethal blow gives the prince a wound back. (also gets 1 str7, ap-2, D1 attack)

Effectively has both the emperor's children and renegade's legion tactics at the same time, but it can never have any others, if it is the warlord it can get some really dope warlord traits like +3 inch movement or +d3 attacks on the charge or -1 attack aura for enemies within 3.

What are peoples thoughts on this ?

My thoughts on princes after many games trying out various ones is that durability trumps offensiveness 9 times out of 10.

Its great if you get a beefed up CC beast in CC, more often than not though they're just too easy to take down

I think the Elixir prince actually gets 8 attacks since the relic gives him +1. One thing that I think really helps him do well is casting Diabolic Strength on himself, buffing him to 9 S10 AP-2 D2 attacks that hit on 2+ rerollable.

Soulstealer does seem like an interesting idea, but for that regenerating wound thing to work he actually has to kill models, meaning he's relegated to fighting nothing stronger than Marines really. He'll rape Primaris guys pretty hard, but he won't kill many vehicles due to simply not having enough attacks. Elixir prince has enough attacks to actually threaten any non-Titanic vehicle short of a Land Raider or Repulsor, and even those might go down a tier. He can even put the hurt on Magnus/Morty since he gets so many attacks some of them will get through the saves. He won't survive the return swings, but neither would the Soulstealer. This is in addition to the large number of attacks being very good against MEQ and even T5 infantry (since he's S10 with the Diabolic Strength buff).

Now, if Daemons have a good way to give a prince more attacks, the Soulstealer could be very good, but 4 attacks just seem like they only go so far. I'd rather have more attacks than regenerating wounds, which do nothing if the prince hasn't even taken any damage yet.

I am liking the idea of the bloodletter bomb. Its an immediate threat to shooty type lists. Even if you charge into their bubble wrap, the attacks of the bloodletters are likely to clear away the bubble wrap.

So, shooty armies have no good choices after that. They either now have to spend their shooting on your blood letters, which have a 5++ anyway, which also means less shooting on your other units. Or they ignore your bloodletters in favour of shooting your other more valuable units. But you ignore a big unit of bloodletters at your own peril, because in close combat, those troops are nasty!

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I think the Elixir prince actually gets 8 attacks since the relic gives him +1. One thing that I think really helps him do well is casting Diabolic Strength on himself, buffing him to 9 S10 AP-2 D2 attacks that hit on 2+ rerollable.

Soulstealer does seem like an interesting idea, but for that regenerating wound thing to work he actually has to kill models, meaning he's relegated to fighting nothing stronger than Marines really. He'll rape Primaris guys pretty hard, but he won't kill many vehicles due to simply not having enough attacks. Elixir prince has enough attacks to actually threaten any non-Titanic vehicle short of a Land Raider or Repulsor, and even those might go down a tier. He can even put the hurt on Magnus/Morty since he gets so many attacks some of them will get through the saves. He won't survive the return swings, but neither would the Soulstealer. This is in addition to the large number of attacks being very good against MEQ and even T5 infantry (since he's S10 with the Diabolic Strength buff).

Now, if Daemons have a good way to give a prince more attacks, the Soulstealer could be very good, but 4 attacks just seem like they only go so far. I'd rather have more attacks than regenerating wounds, which do nothing if the prince hasn't even taken any damage yet.

I haven't played in so long I thought duel talons where +2 attacks not +3 lol

The soulstealer prince can cast hysterical frenzy himself so he can attack during the psychic phase, but that requires him to be locked in combat lol.

Chaos Daemons Faction Focus wrote:Excitingly, unlike previous editions, these Loci affect every single Daemon unit in your detachment, including your Greater Daemons!

This opens the door to some interesting combinations.

Example:

Tzeentch Vanguard:
Herald on Disc
Flamers
Flamers
Exalted Flamer

Khorne Outriders:
Herald on Juggernaut
Flesh Hounds
Flesh Hounds
Furies

Chaos Daemons Battalion:
Tzeentch Daemon Prince
Bloodthirster of Losing The Good Hairbrush
30 Pink Horrors
20 Bloodletters
9 Brimstone, 1 Blue

Chaos Daemons Speartip:
Karanak
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon
Burning Chariot

If the preview wasn’t a typo, everything in that army can benefit from Loci, with no tax units. We might well have some creative options to get around ‘I’m not buying and painting sixty ruddy Daemonettes’.

I had a stray thought after playing my World Eaters + Khorne Daemons. My Berzerker boxes couldn't fit too well with the 20 Flesh Hounds, 2x10 Bloodletters, 10 Cultists, Blood Slaughterers, and the remaining Characters in my deployment zone, so they ended up on the edges of the deployment zone. I almost feel like, and this may be heresy, dropping the Rhinos completely, taking smaller units of Zerkers, and taking Bikes for some mid-ranged flanking. The Flesh Hounds, characters, and slaughterers all rush forward, and the Bloodletter aren't far behind. The Berzerkers could then be back-mid field deep strike counter or even a second / third wave assault.

This will require more minerals playtesting.

Has there been any definitive answer onto taking CSM daemon units in a battleforged daemon detachment? Ie, Khorne Possessed or oblits?

 McGibs wrote:
Has there been any definitive answer onto taking CSM daemon units in a battleforged daemon detachment? Ie, Khorne Possessed or oblits?

You can do that, but you won't benefit from any Legion Trait or Daemon Locus.

No locus even though they're all "Khorne daemons"?
Or does a mark of chaos not count as a faction keyword?

 McGibs wrote:
No locus even though they're all "Khorne daemons"?
Or does a mark of chaos not count as a faction keyword?

The Daemons in the Codex have the Faction Keyword: Daemons. CSM do not have the Faction Keyword: Daemons. This means that a detachment of CSM and Daemons is not Battle Forged, nor can characters have Locus, nor can the CSM have a Legion Trait. Just because keywords are all treated equally after the game begins doesn't mean it gets around the above.

Now that we can deepstrike primarchs (if there is a daemon detachment) what are the best units to clear chaffe?

Can we revisit briefly what best ranged anti-horde is point/damage now that deathguard, CSM and daemon codex are out (or soon to be)? Smite spam used to have some traction but with beta rules appears out.

Anything besides mass troops which works well? With horde spam being all the rage it seems only way to counter is with hordes (or khorne berzerkers). Khorne berzerks make me nervous because if you go first in alpha strike = boss but if you go second they are either going to get shot off if placed aggressively (useless and CP used) or will be footslogging it from somewhere downtown where again likely will have 0 impact (not being in rhino etc.).

Flamers come to mind but seem difficult to get into position and haven't seen many higher end competitive lists run (That I am familiar with)
Grenades are decent and some lists seem to run CSM with one or two power weps but again difficult to get in position turn 1 to 2

Troop blob seems mandatory and otherwise very difficult to counter using ITC scoring?

For example a standard list such as this which makes use of CSM strat and huge blobs of morale free cultists (or comparable for other races)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745200.page

Flamers can pump out a ton of efficient shots per model, does that count? Bikers can drop 12 bolter shots and two flamers for under 100 points. Foetid Bloat Drones get work done. That's what springs to mind.