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 Zid wrote:
This weekend I'll be having a doubles game, my partner is taking a horde of cultists with the Fearless warlord trait for Iron Warriors; gonna see how it fairs! Basically a budget Abaddon, without all the other great rules >.>

Well That depends on how valuable you consider his other rules. Iron Warriors will have Cultists ignoring cover, but I'm guessing that against certain targets you'd rather have rerolling ALL failures rather than JUST 1's Ignoring Cover. With the BS3+ units you might want ignoring cover more though.

 blackmage wrote:
are all those lascannons needed? many armies play lot of bodies and not so much heavy armors, 20 lascannons seems redundant, seems like you lack anti hordes fire, what about put at least obliterators to give some "mass shooting". I ve seen a list similar to your doing good to a major event, but he played 9 obly+lord

that's the list

Spoiler:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Tristan-Whitehead-3rd-Overall-No-Retreat-6-2018.pdf

i will try a similar thing but 1 less hellbrute and 14 noise marines, so it should perform better against hordes. There is a thing mainly worry me, about objectives, not that easy grab and take it

Well, that's a great question, and one that comes up often. Yes, horde armies are a thing, and yes, this list has ample anti-horde in the form of screens, beatsticks, and lascannons.

In general, when I play a Black Legion gunline, I am looking to kill armor (which includes monsters,) then elites, then troops. The idea is that, whatever horde gets to you, it's been whittled down to the point where it can't stand up to the Daemon Prince / Helbrute w/ Lasher Tendrils / Abaddon. The screen around the beatsticks is there to keep them from being charged, but also to ensure they get the charge.

This breaks down when the area is saturated, the example I always point to is 100+ boys. It's not hard for this crew to put 30 wounds on a mob in a single turn, it's dealing with the other 70 that matters. I try to think of it as a flow control problem, the key is making sure sure there aren't that many coming in a single turn. Like, I won't shoot at Trukks when there are boys on the board, I would rather some boys get there a turn early so I can work on them in batches.

What worries me more is better gunlines. I have yet to play the new Tau Codex with this list, but suspect it's not completely terrible. The thing about lascannons versus infantry is they kill what they wound.

is decent, but most depend by rest of the list the rr is big and Abby fearless is 12" non just 6" that change a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
are all those lascannons needed? many armies play lot of bodies and not so much heavy armors, 20 lascannons seems redundant, seems like you lack anti hordes fire, what about put at least obliterators to give some "mass shooting". I ve seen a list similar to your doing good to a major event, but he played 9 obly+lord

that's the list

Spoiler:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Tristan-Whitehead-3rd-Overall-No-Retreat-6-2018.pdf

i will try a similar thing but 1 less hellbrute and 14 noise marines, so it should perform better against hordes. There is a thing mainly worry me, about objectives, not that easy grab and take it

Well, that's a great question, and one that comes up often. Yes, horde armies are a thing, and yes, this list has ample anti-horde in the form of screens, beatsticks, and lascannons.

In general, when I play a Black Legion gunline, I am looking to kill armor (which includes monsters,) then elites, then troops. The idea is that, whatever horde gets to you, it's been whittled down to the point where it can't stand up to the Daemon Prince / Helbrute w/ Lasher Tendrils / Abaddon. The screen around the beatsticks is there to keep them from being charged, but also to ensure they get the charge.

This breaks down when the area is saturated, the example I always point to is 100+ boys. It's not hard for this crew to put 30 wounds on a mob in a single turn, it's dealing with the other 70 that matters. I try to think of it as a flow control problem, the key is making sure sure there aren't that many coming in a single turn. Like, I won't shoot at Trukks when there are boys on the board, I would rather some boys get there a turn early so I can work on them in batches.

What worries me more is better gunlines. I have yet to play the new Tau Codex with this list, but suspect it's not completely terrible. The thing about lascannons versus infantry is they kill what they wound.

lascannons will never keep at bay 100 more models, surely you have more experience than me with that list but actually too much bodies in many armies, i cant ever think to use 20 lascannons then face 150+ tyr models for example. Beside killing them main problem are objectives and maelstrom where you cant stay fix in a corner shooting.

 blackmage wrote:
lascannons will never keep at bay 100 more models, surely you have more experience than me with that list but actually too much bodies in many armies, i cant ever think to use 20 lascannons then face 150+ tyr models for example. Beside killing them main problem are objectives and maelstrom where you cant stay fix in a corner shooting.

Here's how lsacannon spam takes out 100+ models.

1) Stand on your own table edge. Make those 100+ models come at you.

2) Wipe out anything with ranged shooting as quickly as possible. Give yourself a round or two where you can shoot but your opponent can't.

3) Fire those lascannons into infantry. Unless they are immune from morale, big squads lose a lot of models when they take 12+ lascannon shots. Don't get confused and think about the shots as wasted on one-wound infantry, you are softening up a giant blob.

4) Use your Cultist screens to position your opponents for your beatsticks. Fall back, kill off models to remove the unit from combat, or just let them die. That leaves the charging unit exposed.

5) Have 60+ bolter shots ready to go when the Cultist screen falls back. Soften up your opponent.

6) Charge with Abaddon, a dual-talon DP, and a Helbrute with lasher tendrils to kill whatever is still standing.

This list has trouble with Orks and Tyrannids, but that doesn't mean it just loses to them. I've tabled 120+ Orks with a Black Legion gunline several times.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
lascannons will never keep at bay 100 more models, surely you have more experience than me with that list but actually too much bodies in many armies, i cant ever think to use 20 lascannons then face 150+ tyr models for example. Beside killing them main problem are objectives and maelstrom where you cant stay fix in a corner shooting.

Here's how lsacannon spam takes out 100+ models.

1) Stand on your own table edge. Make those 100+ models come at you.

2) Wipe out anything with ranged shooting as quickly as possible. Give yourself a round or two where you can shoot but your opponent can't.

3) Fire those lascannons into infantry. Unless they are immune from morale, big squads lose a lot of models when they take 12+ lascannon shots. Don't get confused and think about the shots as wasted on one-wound infantry, you are softening up a giant blob.

4) Use your Cultist screens to position your opponents for your beatsticks. Fall back, kill off models to remove the unit from combat, or just let them die. That leaves the charging unit exposed.

5) Have 60+ bolter shots ready to go when the Cultist screen falls back. Soften up your opponent.

6) Charge with Abaddon, a dual-talon DP, and a Helbrute with lasher tendrils to kill whatever is still standing.

This list has trouble with Orks and Tyrannids, but that doesn't mean it just loses to them. I've tabled 120+ Orks with a Black Legion gunline several times.

What ruleset are you using? Have you had significant success in objective games too? The way you describe it sounds like Eternal War.

If this is working well honestly kudos to you - it is just in a horde driven meta it is surprising to hear about a successful Chaos Lascannon list.

Freeing up some points for quad heavy bolter rapiers might work out. I've been running those, 12 las cannon havocs with potential endless cacophony, a leviathan dread and a deredeo.

If you put prescience and votl on the fire twice havoc squad you are deleting a lot of armor that could potentially hurt the dreadnoughts. Deredeo with butcher array and havoc launcher mulches infantry squads and dual grav leviathan mulches everything. Quad bolter rapiers then clean up.

orkswubwub wrote:
What ruleset are you using? Have you had significant success in objective games too? The way you describe it sounds like Eternal War.

If this is working well honestly kudos to you - it is just in a horde driven meta it is surprising to hear about a successful Chaos Lascannon list.

That's a good question. This list plays about the same with kill points, objectives, and tactical objectives.

Most games, I roll off for missions just like everyone else (unless we decide to just play straight kill points - which always works for me.) I play Eternal War and Maelstrom of War missions. The ones that put me at the biggest disadvantage are Recon and Roving Patrol from Chapter Approved, since I can't guarantee Abaddon will be on the board. Also, there's no guarantee my opponent's forces will be there either, which can throw the game plan into disarray.

That said, I'm not always trying to score victory points. I'm often trying to deny my opponent victory points.

Once my army is deployed, I am usually near 2 objectives that can be taken just by moving forward with the Cultist screen (if I'm not already on them.) At that point, I usually have LOS to at least 2 more objectives. Once I've dealt with tanks / monsters, the next step is to clear out elites. Elites tend to congregate around objectives, either to hold them or on their way to fight my army. So destroying those units often aligns with clearing out objectives.

One thing I urge anyone to remember, when it comes to clearing objectives - it's not always about the damage the lascannons do, it's the morale. Most units cannot stand up to a lascannon shot, much less 12. Pick off 6 models from a 10 man Ld 8 unit and watch the rest flee at the end of the turn. Pick off 6 from 2 units and you are doing it right. With rerolls to hit, this is not just possible, but likely.

With tactical objectives, the easy ones are Overwhelming Firepower, Hold the Line, The Long War, For the Dark Gods, and the Secure / Defend cards. Supremacy is usually easy to get, an opponent would have to table me to get me off the first 2 objectives and I can use Tide of Traitors to get Cultists to a third if I need it.

OTOH, my opponents aren't racking up a lot of VPs when their tanks have been wiped out and the nearest target is 36 inches away. They are not getting Blood and Guts when all they have to charge is Cultists who are spread out 1.5 inches away from one another, immune to morale, and refuse to consolidate. If they choose to sit on an objective, that's not going to last long.

Again, I'm not saying this is an autowin list, or even the best Chaos list out there. I call it a gunline and not 'lascannon spam' for a reason. The lascannons are important, but the Cultist shenanigans are just as important for confounding your opponent and shutting down all sorts of enemy tactics. Abaddon, the DP and the Helbrutes become essential when you need to wipe out a charging unit.

I've just had a lot of success with the gunline and enjoyed playing it since early in 8th edition. If you want to beat someone in a victory point game, this list offers some excellent ways to deny them to your opponent. If you want to beat someone in a kill point game, this list offers some excellent ways to clear your opponent's most dangerous units at the start of the game while creating some very favorable conditions for the Black Legion.

so someone has some input how play chaos after FAQ, inputs and feedback from some tournamenst perhaps, thx

posted 2 list post FAQ there, ty for comments
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/756133.page#9957890

I’m seeing arguments to start Noise Marines on the board in a Kharybdis

If you don’t get first turn and it gets shot up, you place the NMs into play and then some get slain and slain models get to MotA. Not a bad chance you’ll get to shoot some of their footsloggers before they shoot as your opponent will likely want to kill the damned thing ASAP

If you leave it’s deployment for last, your opponent will be expecting it to DS and won’t deploy to screen it. High density deployment with intent to scatter and fill the table is asking for it to be Warptimed it into the enemy army. It’s movement, thermal jets, and Melta cutters don’t deteriorate, so if it has 1W left, that’s quite a bomb to drop. Maybe throw on Diabolic Strength and Delightful Agonies, just to really rub it in. Large enough to cast the spells from outside DTW range

Biker Lord can keep pace to give it re-roll to hit on MC, leaving your commans re-roll for when you inevitably get a 1 to wound

Interesting synergy with Linebreaker Bombardment, so long as you can keep it just out of the epicentre

I want more discussion on the shooty chaos lists. I have tried to make more melee oriented CSM lists, but those have so far always fallen flat. Fodder and bubble wrap makes it really tough. And nowadays, our hard melee characters aren't even necessarily the most killy as well. One good example would be that blood angels captain. That guy wrecks face, and the most scary thing is, after he dies, they can use one more strategem to make him strike back one last time in melee. He actually has a very small profile (in terms of area taken up), and he has a jump pack so its not hard for him to fly over the fodder to get to where he wants. And being a character, he benefits from character rules as well if he is attacking along with his other death company buddies.

Has anyone tried doom sirens since they got the 12pt decrease to 10pts ? They seem allot more reasonable.

Anyone tried a DP of Slanesh, dual talons, w/ Delightful Agonies and Intoxicating Elixir? 8 Str 8 attacks and being able to give FnP to a unit of cultists to hide behind seems pretty stronk

 Rydria wrote:
Has anyone tried doom sirens since they got the 12pt decrease to 10pts ? They seem allot more reasonable.

Doom siren is a must take on a noise marine unit. Its super nice in my experience at dealing with melee rush.

 Zid wrote:
Anyone tried a DP of Slanesh, dual talons, w/ Delightful Agonies and Intoxicating Elixir? 8 Str 8 attacks and being able to give FnP to a unit of cultists to hide behind seems pretty stronk

That's one of the first / original ideas when the codex first dropped. It works ok, but the issue is your dp wants to be moving faster than the cultists can move. If you have some restraint and can maneuver things well it's a powerful little combo.

I find I prefer taking Delightful Agonies on a Sorcerer. It has an 18 inch range which gives it a bit more flexibility in its application. With a Jump Pack, a Sorcerer can usually be in position by the psychic phase to cast it on whoever needs it.

For the Prince specifically, I'll usually put on one of the shorter range psychic powers. Death Hex if I expect to be facing heavy invulnerable saves like Storm Shields, Gift of Chaos if the opponent has low toughness characters, Warptime if I need a long charge. The Prince will generally be more toward the front lines than the Sorcerer so is more readily able to take the shorter range psychic powers, while the Sorcerer can apply the longer range ones like delightful agonies and prescience from a safer distance.

Yeah, DA is powerful,and there’s no need to expose it to DTW if you can avoid it. DH is fine for a rushdown character as when you cast it, it’ll be hard to dispel. Similarly Diabolic Strength, of all our spells it’s probably the most disposable for baiting out DTW when we need to.

With forgeworld doing a sale this month on the Deredeo, Contemptor, And Leviathan( buy a dread and an arm, get the second arm free) how does everyone feel about those Hellforged Friends of ours?

I’m thinking about running a Deredeo with Havoc Launcher and Butcher Cannons, a Claw and Grav Leviathan And a Claw/Kheres Contemptor alongside a Defiler

I just nabbed a couple myself. Going butcher deredeo, double butcher leviathan, and double grav flux leviathan. Gonna warp time the grav fluxes into range.

what list you prefer if you must play a tournament now (no maelstrom missions)

Do we have a definite answer to the question of whether a Chaos Familiar can replace Smite? RAW it’s a fairly safe call, but it’s a bit convoluted and loopholey and I’d like to be on very safe ground when my Warpflame Rubricae jump out of a Termite, Advance, Familiar away their Smite for Warptime, and then Advance again to torch some unit that reckoned they were a distant threat and my Warptimer was on the other side of the battlefield.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Do we have a definite answer to the question of whether a Chaos Familiar can replace Smite?

TS FAQ :

Q: Can I replace the Smite psychic power when using the Chaos
Familiar Stratagem?
A: Yes.

Aha! I was looking in the CSM FAQ. Thanks!

With the termite i guess you have to spend a turn embarked in it when it arrives... hmmm not sure on it.

Won't that have to wait till turn 3 then? The termite can't deepstrike past deployment turn 1, deepstrikes in turn 2, can't disembark until turn 3?

Yeah, well, it's nerfed like pretty much every deep striker, this is one way to deliver a warp timer. The termite has the distinction of being a deep strike vehicle that doesn't force everyone to disembark upon arrival. This was really interesting when alpha and DS warptime were allowed.

Of course, right now, it's probably more efficient to just run a Rhino at them and try to overheat its combi-plasma on the first turn. Or send them up in a Land Raider.

Hey guys, i wanna add some forgeworld to my Chaos Marines.

I though about a Leviathan or a Deredeo ?

Whats your favorite? and whats our "best" forgeworld uni? i wanna play a tournament in 5 weeks and i need some backup

or they just to weak for competitive play?

cant go wrong with a eviathan, they look awesome and perform pretty wekk on the table.

i'd prob take one wit hthe butcher cannons and grav array thing

Grav flux bombards are super nasty. You could potentially one shot a Lord of War or a full 40 man horde after morale. Short range is only limiting factor

I'm sure this was asked and generally answered weeks ago but: can I summon units outside my deployment zone turn one?

Edit: did a search and saw that it was reasoned out that summoning may be effected, but there's been no official ruling on it specifically. The wording sure doesn't sound good though.