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 Frazzled wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Some folks over in Saudi Arabia fund terrorism if I recall correctly, for example. I am sure putting a stop to that will help.

...Assuming you have a way to do that.

The King of Saudi Arabia declares it 'political dissent'. Since that's punishable by decapitation, might make an impression. Usually the guys that fund terrorism lack the guts to blow themselves up.

What really needs to happen though is that the religious basis of these attacks needs to be cut out from under it. However, that would require Trump to stop tweeting hate BS at Muslims, so expect a continuation of the current situation.

You seem to have missed the part where suicide attackers is a ME trait back to the Hashashin. Blaming Trump is incredibly misplaced.

Hashashins didn't use suicide attackers. They preferred to be killed by their enemy; suicide was a last resort.

In other words, suicide by cop.

It's only suicide if you want to die. So if they were Hashashins, it'd be "death by cop"

I have seen a lot of people blaming Theresa May for cutting police force staffing. I can't really comment on that, I don't know anything about it. Generally speaking though, was that really a factor? The entire attack was only 82 seconds from beginning to end, and in fact, not one but 2 police officers intervened - seems like a fairly fast response, no?

 Ouze wrote:
I have seen a lot of people blaming Theresa May for cutting police force staffing. I can't really comment on that, I don't know anything about it. Generally speaking though, was that really a factor? The entire attack was only 82 seconds from beginning to end, and in fact, not one but 2 police officers intervened - seems like a fairly fast response, no?

There is an argument that 20+ years of neglect and change in policing within the UK has an effect on community efforts to tackle crimes including extremism and terrorism.

These recent attacks would not have been prevented by more bobbies on the beat. The knife attacks in particular were prevented from being more terrible by the intervention of Police officers.

Basically, no. Yes, police numbers have gone down, but in this case, no. Unless you employ enough police to have firearms officers stood on every street corner more police would not have stopped the attack. It's just political points scoreing as we have an election this week.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I have seen a lot of people blaming Theresa May for cutting police force staffing. I can't really comment on that, I don't know anything about it. Generally speaking though, was that really a factor? The entire attack was only 82 seconds from beginning to end, and in fact, not one but 2 police officers intervened - seems like a fairly fast response, no?

There is an argument that 20+ years of neglect and change in policing within the UK has an effect on community efforts to tackle crimes including extremism and terrorism.

These recent attacks would not have been prevented by more bobbies on the beat. The knife attacks in particular were prevented from being more terrible by the intervention of Police officers.

In this instance, I don't think it would have changed the time taken to stop the attack, as the response was pretty immediate, it's that more police might have resulted in the attack being prevented from even starting. The most obvious way is that more police = more investigators to look into hotline alerts and validate whether a threat exists (there are already claims that the local community had given warnings about the guy whose flat got raided yesterday).

The more subtle influence is that the traditional "Bobby on the beat" is/was part of the glue that holds our society together. They haven't released the names yet, but pound to a penny these will be UK citizens, which means yet again we are faced with a situation where young men born and raised in this country have become so alienated that they feel justified in lashing out against their homeland. I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers, but rebuilding respect for the rule of law and trust in authority has got to be part of it and good community policing would certainly help that.

I don't like the fact that people are using this attack for political gain.


Also, having more bobbies in this situation would do nothing. There is still too many ways people can hide for it to be feasible. Also, these people knew they were going to die regardless of how many police there were around.

Apparently reports were made about some of the attackers years ago but the people reporting were never contacted further and the impression is that little was done to follow up calls made. Thousands more police wouldn't necessarily have stopped the attack progressing any faster (8 minutes from the first 999 call to being shot dead is pretty quick), but extra police support a wider infrastructure that could have investigated and halted things earlier.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Y'all could just identify where the terrorists are coming from first and stop it there.

The cops have generally done that very quickly. And the usual answer is something like 'Bradford'.

 Ouze wrote:
I have seen a lot of people blaming Theresa May for cutting police force staffing. I can't really comment on that, I don't know anything about it. Generally speaking though, was that really a factor? The entire attack was only 82 seconds from beginning to end, and in fact, not one but 2 police officers intervened - seems like a fairly fast response, no?

Having more police wouldn't have stopped the attack any faster once it was underway. However, police cuts have certainly reduced the ability of the police to monitor individuals on watch lists, for instance.

In May of 2015 Police chiefs told Theresa May (then Home Secretary) that cuts to police budgets could lead to an increase in terrorist atrocities because they would not have the resources to fully investigate potential threats. She told them to 'stop scaremongering and prepare for further cuts'.

 Ouze wrote:
I have seen a lot of people blaming Theresa May for cutting police force staffing. I can't really comment on that, I don't know anything about it. Generally speaking though, was that really a factor? The entire attack was only 82 seconds from beginning to end, and in fact, not one but 2 police officers intervened - seems like a fairly fast response, no?

We were 'lucky' in the fact that London is heavily armed these days (a high profile target) and because of the IRA bombing campaign in the 1980s, there are long established protocols in place, which means armed officers are a priority, and they are able to get there in a few minutes, which by all accounts, saved a lot of lives.

That being said, I'll make this point to you and everybody else on the subject of police numbers.

Having more police officers won't solve every problem, but it allows more focus on community policing, and tackling this problem at source.

When she was Home Secretary, May just didn't slash beat cop numbers, she axed police sniffer dog teams which is crazy in an age of suspect packages popping up all over the place.

She also privatized the national forensics centre, which resulted in delays, problems, and evidence going missing, or being contaminated and things being fethed up.

It's a fething shambles

I live in Scotland, so we have or own version of one of your American 'state' legislators, so policing is under 'state' control in Scotland and is separate from England. it's not perfect, but we're doing a lot better up here because we didn't slash people numbers like in England.

A service firearms officer wrote an article over the weekend about how the cuts to police funding make these attacks more likely -

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/london-terror-attack-bridge-borough-latest-firearms-officer-government-wrong-police-cuts-theresa-may-a7772506.html


It is concerning that one of the suspects was reported a number of times but he may well have been thoroughly investigated and deemed not a threat.

I was crossing London Bridge exactly 24 hours before the attack and Borough Market is usually my last point of call on every trip up to London so this attack has hit closer to home for me then usual.

 welshhoppo wrote:
I don't like the fact that people are using this attack for political gain.


Also, having more bobbies in this situation would do nothing. There is still too many ways people can hide for it to be feasible. Also, these people knew they were going to die regardless of how many police there were around.

I have to disagree with you here, because it is politics. In the 7 years of Tory government, our armed forces would struggle to protect the UK from invasion because they're been run down, and the police force in the UK has also been run down. The first duty of government is defence of the realm. The Conservatives have failed in this. It's dereliction of duty to the nation.

The army has been declining for decades.

Also how are we supposed to fund the police in this current climate?

I know it's bad. But less than 100 people have died from terrorist attacks in the last ten years. It is barely a drop in the ocean.

Thank you all for expanding upon that. Good points about the preventative aspects of better equipped policing.

I read an article that suggested using 'reverse visas' for countries that are hotbeds of terrorism. It cited Libia as an example, as the Manchester bomber went back and forth there. Personally I don't see how keeping them in the country would help keep us safe. And they can just find ways around it I'm sure.

 welshhoppo wrote:
The army has been declining for decades.

Also how are we supposed to fund the police in this current climate?

I know it's bad. But less than 100 people have died from terrorist attacks in the last ten years. It is barely a drop in the ocean.

We can start by raising corporation tax. It's amongst the lowest in the G7, and firms have taken advantage of that by moving cash away from the UK. So much for trickle down economics.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The army has been declining for decades.

Also how are we supposed to fund the police in this current climate?

I know it's bad. But less than 100 people have died from terrorist attacks in the last ten years. It is barely a drop in the ocean.

We can start by raising corporation tax. It's amongst the lowest in the G7, and firms have taken advantage of that by moving cash away from the UK. So much for trickle down economics.

Yeah, but that will just make them move across the water to Ireland. Where they also happen to speak English. Corporations Tax is low there and they'll be able to still work with the EU.

We are in a rock and a hard place with tax.
Lower corporation tax makes us look more appealing as we are more than likely going to have to leave the single market.

 Steve steveson wrote:
Basically, no. Yes, police numbers have gone down, but in this case, no. Unless you employ enough police to have firearms officers stood on every street corner more police would not have stopped the attack. It's just political points scoreing as we have an election this week.

Except when Police chiefs are openly stating they can't follow up reports of radicalised behaviour (Manchester and at least one of the London attackers) because their resources have been slashed....then the woman who's job it was to tackle terrorism and extremism as home secretary for six years says 'we're not doing enough to tackle terrorism and extremism'.....well....

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The army has been declining for decades.

Also how are we supposed to fund the police in this current climate?

I know it's bad. But less than 100 people have died from terrorist attacks in the last ten years. It is barely a drop in the ocean.

We can start by raising corporation tax. It's amongst the lowest in the G7, and firms have taken advantage of that by moving cash away from the UK. So much for trickle down economics.

Yeah, but that will just make them move across the water to Ireland. Where they also happen to speak English. Corporations Tax is low there and they'll be able to still work with the EU.

If that's how it worked everyone would already be in Ireland. And we'd have lost all out business when corporation tax was over 50% when that mad socialist Thatcher was in power.

The UK has lots of positives for business that trump corporation tax. Especially London - a real shame for the rest of the UK, but it is what it is.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm broken now. These attacks, all of them, are driving me to depression. I'm just gutted looking at the hopeless situation in front of us. I'm lucky. I live in Northern Ireland were this doesn't happen. I can't imagine what anyone living in London or Manchester or anywhere like that must feel like these days. How do you fight the urge to just stay indoors and give up?

Well, I would say turn off the TV, radio and social media too as soon as you know that your relatives are safe.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I suppose the good news is that the attackers have been shot dead, so that will save the taxpayer some money, as we won't need expensive trials.

Good riddance to them.

No, it's bad, it's lost intel and intel is good. Intel can save lives.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm broken now. These attacks, all of them, are driving me to depression. I'm just gutted looking at the hopeless situation in front of us. I'm lucky. I live in Northern Ireland were this doesn't happen. I can't imagine what anyone living in London or Manchester or anywhere like that must feel like these days. How do you fight the urge to just stay indoors and give up?

Well, I would say turn off the TV, radio and social media too as soon as you know that your relatives are safe.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I suppose the good news is that the attackers have been shot dead, so that will save the taxpayer some money, as we won't need expensive trials.

Good riddance to them.

No, it's bad, it's lost intel and intel is good. Intel can save lives.

It's hard to capture people who don't want to be taken alive.

Yes I agree. But not having managed to make something hard that would have had positive consequences is not good news imo.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yes I agree. But not having managed to make something hard that would have had positive consequences is not good news imo.

The police have raised the homes of these attackers, so good intel will probably be found there.

 Ouze wrote:
I have seen a lot of people blaming Theresa May for cutting police force staffing. I can't really comment on that, I don't know anything about it. Generally speaking though, was that really a factor? The entire attack was only 82 seconds from beginning to end, and in fact, not one but 2 police officers intervened - seems like a fairly fast response, no?

It was likely a fast response because police were on foot patrol on Saturday night near a bar. It was reported that one of the early casualties was a police officer who was attacked by the perpetrators and armed with a baton

nfe wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The army has been declining for decades.

Also how are we supposed to fund the police in this current climate?

I know it's bad. But less than 100 people have died from terrorist attacks in the last ten years. It is barely a drop in the ocean.

We can start by raising corporation tax. It's amongst the lowest in the G7, and firms have taken advantage of that by moving cash away from the UK. So much for trickle down economics.

Yeah, but that will just make them move across the water to Ireland. Where they also happen to speak English. Corporations Tax is low there and they'll be able to still work with the EU.

If that's how it worked everyone would already be in Ireland. And we'd have lost all out business when corporation tax was over 50% when that mad socialist Thatcher was in power.

The UK has lots of positives for business that trump corporation tax. Especially London - a real shame for the rest of the UK, but it is what it is.

You mean banks. Well I for one don't want an economy based on banks and financial services. They have their place but not to the point were they are all that matters. That's the attitude that got us a Brexit vote.

I know that for my business I employed an extra guy on the back of corporation tax coming down and I will have to let him go if it goes we back up. My brother in law is in the same position.

 Knockagh wrote:

nfe wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The army has been declining for decades.

Also how are we supposed to fund the police in this current climate?

I know it's bad. But less than 100 people have died from terrorist attacks in the last ten years. It is barely a drop in the ocean.

We can start by raising corporation tax. It's amongst the lowest in the G7, and firms have taken advantage of that by moving cash away from the UK. So much for trickle down economics.

Yeah, but that will just make them move across the water to Ireland. Where they also happen to speak English. Corporations Tax is low there and they'll be able to still work with the EU.

If that's how it worked everyone would already be in Ireland. And we'd have lost all out business when corporation tax was over 50% when that mad socialist Thatcher was in power.

The UK has lots of positives for business that trump corporation tax. Especially London - a real shame for the rest of the UK, but it is what it is.

You mean banks. Well I for one don't want an economy based on banks and financial services. They have their place but not to the point were they are all that matters. That's the attitude that got us a Brexit vote.

I know that for my business I employed an extra guy on the back of corporation tax coming down and I will have to let him go if it goes we back up. My brother in law is in the same position.

I'm not sure why you surmise that I specifically mean banks? Because I mention London specifically? I do that because of its level of infrastructure and its serving as a air hub for both freight and people. Not because of the city. That's clearly a major generator of income, but I have pretty fundamental issues with global banking for ideological reasons and hardly praise their contribution.

I'm simply saying that if having the lowest corporation in the G7, and the second lowest in the G20 (I think? Need to check), hardly makes us an unfeasibly expensive state to do business in. If corporation tax was the priority, we'd have lost everything during the Celtic Tiger years, if we hadn't already two decades earlier when had corproation tax at more than double the level proposed by Corbyn, whilst under a Tory government!

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Apparently reports were made about some of the attackers years ago but the people reporting were never contacted further and the impression is that little was done to follow up calls made. Thousands more police wouldn't necessarily have stopped the attack progressing any faster (8 minutes from the first 999 call to being shot dead is pretty quick), but extra police support a wider infrastructure that could have investigated and halted things earlier.

On that theme.

To be fair it was recently reported that there were no reports coming from friends/family/acquaintances of the Manchester bomber even though media reports suggest that calls had been made.

Either the calls weren't logged, were lost, were destroyed or were never made.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yes I agree. But not having managed to make something hard that would have had positive consequences is not good news imo.

The police have raised the homes of these attackers, so good intel will probably be found there.

Definitely hope so.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Yes I agree. But not having managed to make something hard that would have had positive consequences is not good news imo.

The police have raised the homes of these attackers, so good intel will probably be found there.

Definitely hope so.

Hope anyone who knew what they where doing gets a nice time to think in jail for not reporting at stopping this senseless attack if there are any.
People died, good people.
If someone could have maybe stopped it and did not... Sorry but your complicit.