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 Spacemanvic wrote:
He's actually not a fraud. A little more than a cursory web search would have proven this, as well as exposed his detractors for who they are.

Wow. I post that a guy is a nobody who's 'work' involves getting interviews with media sources who don't bother to check sources... and you respond by linking to a bunch of new stories interviewing the guy. And the who's who of prestige journalism you link to is HuffPo, the Daily Mail, and Sunrise - which to people outside Australia is a cheaper, dumber version of The Today Show.

Effectively you've tried to rebut my point that he just gets interviewed in junk media, by linking to interviews in a bunch of junk media outlets.

You then go on to try and get some mud on the journalist who pointed out that this guy isn't actually recognised within the Muslim community by anyone, by linking to a comment by the author in which she points out that in the wake of the Boston bombing Muslims were likely to come under attack. You try and make that sound shocking except that, you know, it isn't. Even if a person thinks her priorities were misplaced so soon after the attack, which would be a reasonable assessment, it's utterly ridiculous to attempt to claim that it's such an outrageous claim that we can't trust her on basic reporting.

Then you top it all off by adding in a line about political correctness, despite there having been no political correctness in the thread, unless we use the definition often used by silliest part of the right wing, where political correctness is any opinion not as right wing as their own.

 sebster wrote:
. . . and Sunrise - which to people outside Australia is a cheaper, dumber version of The Today Show.

I'll admit, when I got up this morning, I did not expect to see someone using Sunrise as a source in an OT Dakka argument, but it was worth it.

Footage of the Police gunning down the attackers has been released/leaked.

My god, thats a horrifying, cluster feth of a situation. I'm not surprised an innocent bystander was hit in the crossfire. Those officers are brave, brave men and a credit to our country.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Footage of the Police gunning down the attackers has been released/leaked.

My god, thats a horrifying, cluster feth of a situation. I'm not surprised an innocent bystander was hit in the crossfire. Those officers are brave, brave men and a credit to our country.

Horrible. That guy is lucky to have survived the stabbing and the crossfire. He did survive didn't he?

Also the Saudi football team refused to do a moments silence for the victims in of this in a recent match because it's 'not in their culture'.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Footage of the Police gunning down the attackers has been released/leaked.

My god, thats a horrifying, cluster feth of a situation. I'm not surprised an innocent bystander was hit in the crossfire. Those officers are brave, brave men and a credit to our country.

Horrible. That guy is lucky to have survived the stabbing and the crossfire. He did survive didn't he?

Also the Saudi football team refused to do a moments silence for the victims in of this in a recent match because it's 'not in their culture'.

Sure.. i mean its not like your in another country with a diffrent culture... oh wait. Feth off guys, your welcome to find a flight home.

Think so, if you mean one wounded. he was seen getting med care nearby . Name/much else unkown.

and Police acted fast, they did sure bring them down quick, it was somthing like seconds from arivial, firing and tango down.

Yeah it's hard to believe that the whole incident was over in less than ten minutes.

And thankfully Australia beat them in that match but it just goes to show what disgusting disrespectful bastards they are. They could even just stand still. It's just pissing in the faces of everyone else. And honestly, their sympathies probably lie more with the attackers.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Yeah it's hard to believe that the whole incident was over in less than ten minutes.

And thankfully Australia beat them in that match but it just goes to show what disgusting disrespectful bastards they are. They could even just stand still. It's just pissing in the faces of everyone else. And honestly, their sympathies probably lie more with the attackers.

They did learn from Paris though. they where not letting them get any kind of chance to maintain there attack, People baricading and rapid police action prevented any nasty hostage scenario and the media put out that SAS commando forces where being deployed who guard London.

maybe propaganda, but its not what you wanna see if your a terrorist to find forces with years of training to do said job decided that you are a target.

Yeah, its just being a gak hole in a country you are a guest.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Yeah it's hard to believe that the whole incident was over in less than ten minutes.

And thankfully Australia beat them in that match but it just goes to show what disgusting disrespectful bastards they are. They could even just stand still. It's just pissing in the faces of everyone else. And honestly, their sympathies probably lie more with the attackers.

They're showing their true colours and their contempt for us.

Saudi Arabia is NOT our friend, it is our ENEMY. We should be cutting all ties with them, cancelling all arms deals, boycotting their oil.

If we even still have an "Axis of Evil", Saudi Arabia should be on it.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Yeah it's hard to believe that the whole incident was over in less than ten minutes.

And thankfully Australia beat them in that match but it just goes to show what disgusting disrespectful bastards they are. They could even just stand still. It's just pissing in the faces of everyone else. And honestly, their sympathies probably lie more with the attackers.

They did learn from Paris though. they where not letting them get any kind of chance to maintain there attack, People baricading and rapid police action prevented any nasty hostage scenario and the media put out that SAS commando forces where being deployed who guard London.

maybe propaganda, but its not what you wanna see if your a terrorist to find forces with years of training to do said job decided that you are a target.

Yeah, its just being a gak hole in a country you are a guest.

The new tactical training is to go in fast and hard, presumably to prevent the targets having time to organise themselves.

One of the bright spots of the affair was that it took only a few minutes from first reports to the police of an attack, to the perpetrators being riddled with bullets.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Yeah it's hard to believe that the whole incident was over in less than ten minutes.

And thankfully Australia beat them in that match but it just goes to show what disgusting disrespectful bastards they are. They could even just stand still. It's just pissing in the faces of everyone else. And honestly, their sympathies probably lie more with the attackers.

They're showing their true colours and their contempt for us.

Saudi Arabia is NOT our friend, it is our ENEMY. We should be cutting all ties with them, cancelling all arms deals, boycotting their oil.

If we even still have an "Axis of Evil", Saudi Arabia should be on it.

We're in total agreement on that, at least. Saudi Arabia has to go.

I'm actually surprised no other officers were injured in the crossfire, given that one of the murderers seems to run straight into the midst of them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Yeah it's hard to believe that the whole incident was over in less than ten minutes.

And thankfully Australia beat them in that match but it just goes to show what disgusting disrespectful bastards they are. They could even just stand still. It's just pissing in the faces of everyone else. And honestly, their sympathies probably lie more with the attackers.

They're showing their true colours and their contempt for us.

Saudi Arabia is NOT our friend, it is our ENEMY. We should be cutting all ties with them, cancelling all arms deals, boycotting their oil.

If we even still have an "Axis of Evil", Saudi Arabia should be on it.

We're in total agreement on that, at least. Saudi Arabia has to go.

I'm not a fan of Saudi Arabia in the slightest, but the 1 minute contemplative silence in respect for the dead or a tragedy is a very Western, if not exclusively Western, cultural practice. There's no real equivalent of it in many other cultures. Its origin is based in the memorial services of WWI. It's entirely possible that the team wasn't entirely aware of how offensive failing to observe it would be.

I mean, Saudis are dicks in my opinion, but this doesn't damn them a whole lot more in my eyes.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:


I'm not a fan of Saudi Arabia in the slightest, but the 1 minute contemplative silence in respect for the dead or a tragedy is a very Western, if not exclusively Western, cultural practice. There's no real equivalent of it in many other cultures. Its origin is based in the memorial services of WWI. It's entirely possible that the team wasn't entirely aware of how offensive failing to observe it would be.

I mean, Saudis are dicks in my opinion, but this doesn't damn them a whole lot more in my eyes.

According to this article the practice isn't so foreign to Saudis or Arabs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4584294/Saudi-soccer-team-refuse-stand-London-victims.html

Saudi team officials said it was not in their culture to observe silences, yet club team Al-Ahli - many of whose players represent the national side - stood motionless before a match against Barcelona to remember the footballers who died in the Chapecoense air disaster

Another Gulf nation, the United Arab Emirates, observed a minute's silence before a polo match in 2014

See, they do understand the importance of a minutes silence when it suits them. Evil hateful bastards.

Lets not impugn a whole nation because of a few now.

 Frazzled wrote:
Lets not impugn a whole nation because of a few now.

True. True.

From beheading to the abysmal woman's rights laws and many others things we can go after many many points instead of just this one.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
I'm not a fan of Saudi Arabia in the slightest, but the 1 minute contemplative silence in respect for the dead or a tragedy is a very Western, if not exclusively Western, cultural practice. There's no real equivalent of it in many other cultures. Its origin is based in the memorial services of WWI. It's entirely possible that the team wasn't entirely aware of how offensive failing to observe it would be.

I mean, Saudis are dicks in my opinion, but this doesn't damn them a whole lot more in my eyes.

And yet, the Saudi Football team HAVE respected 1 minute silences in the past, which makes them liars and hypocrites. This has nothing to do with "cultural reasons".

Brazil Plane crash:


Marking the death of a Saudi king.

Hey, I know a guy on that polo team!

DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Humble Guardsman wrote:


I'm not a fan of Saudi Arabia in the slightest, but the 1 minute contemplative silence in respect for the dead or a tragedy is a very Western, if not exclusively Western, cultural practice. There's no real equivalent of it in many other cultures. Its origin is based in the memorial services of WWI. It's entirely possible that the team wasn't entirely aware of how offensive failing to observe it would be.

I mean, Saudis are dicks in my opinion, but this doesn't damn them a whole lot more in my eyes.

According to this article the practice isn't so foreign to Saudis or Arabs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4584294/Saudi-soccer-team-refuse-stand-London-victims.html

Saudi team officials said it was not in their culture to observe silences, yet club team Al-Ahli - many of whose players represent the national side - stood motionless before a match against Barcelona to remember the footballers who died in the Chapecoense air disaster

Another Gulf nation, the United Arab Emirates, observed a minute's silence before a polo match in 2014

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
I'm not a fan of Saudi Arabia in the slightest, but the 1 minute contemplative silence in respect for the dead or a tragedy is a very Western, if not exclusively Western, cultural practice. There's no real equivalent of it in many other cultures. Its origin is based in the memorial services of WWI. It's entirely possible that the team wasn't entirely aware of how offensive failing to observe it would be.

I mean, Saudis are dicks in my opinion, but this doesn't damn them a whole lot more in my eyes.

And yet, the Saudi Football team HAVE respected 1 minute silences in the past, which makes them liars and hypocrites. This has nothing to do with "cultural reasons".

Brazil Plane crash:

Spoiler:

Marking the death of a Saudi king.

Spoiler:

Well then yeah, feth 'em.

Every time I think the Saudis can't possibly up the ante on the gak head high jump, they do another flip.

We can't tolerate this. Something has to be done.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
We can't tolerate this. Something has to be done.

We could put them on the UN Commission on the Status of Women. That'd show them!

That shredded the last remaining ounce of respect I had for the UN.

The culture excuse is an excuse because they just can't admit that they support the killers. It's as simple as that. They're cowards as well as liars and hypocrites.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
That shredded the last remaining ounce of respect I had for the UN.

The argument for it was sound enough. Putting Saudi Arabia in a position were they have to hold other nations to account on their treatment of women would, you'd think, put pressure on them to make some effort in improving their own failures there.

Clearly it didn't work, and made the UN look like a joke to boot.

Spacemanvic wrote:[Political correctness is what is causing the West to wring its hands in worry, blinding it to what must be done, to what should be done. Dont try to fight the religion, you cant. Instead, find those who advocate and perpetrate the terrorism, and deal with them with extreme prejudice.

And those guys get replaced with new guys, and the cycle continues. Do you want to win this, or do you want to keep sending men to the meat grinder? What I said had nothing to do with the Religion, it has to do with altering public perceptions. People are willing to die for God all the time. Politics? Not so much.

Spacemanvic wrote:
The choice is incredibly clear: live or die.

If that's how you see it, you're already dead.

Grey Templar wrote:
The thing is, they're still making it about religion. The aggressors are who determines what a war is about. You can't really ignore their angle on this one.

The idea is to beat their angle on it. Show that they're liars who are taking the almighty in vane to push their own secular politics. If half the Imams in the Middle East are talking about what hypocrites a particular group is, they're far less likely to draw recruits. The real issue is finding a voice that people will believe out of hand.

And I'll point to half a dozen wars where it was not the aggressor who decided what the war was about, but a third party.

 Galas wrote:
Baronlveagh was talking about how making this some kind of Religious War makes even easier for them to radicalize Muslims with the "Yihad" rhetoric. Is obvious that they want this to be a Christianity vs Islam war, because that's makes all of their recruitment process even easier, but we shouldn't enter their game.
If we eliminate that, it comes down to a political war, something that isn't as widespread as a religion.

Nobody is denying that there's a war. Is about how we present it to the public: In the way that helps the Islamic terrorist , or one that don't.

"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected." - Sun Tzu.

The only person you are fooling by calling ISIS' fight political is yourself. They are a group that have shown time and time again how dead set they are in their motives. How many more terrorists have to say "Allahu Ackbar" before that gets made clear?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:


The only person you are fooling by calling ISIS' fight political is yourself. They are a group that have shown time and time again how dead set they are in their motives. How many more terrorists have to say "Allahu Ackbar" before that gets made clear?

Still not grasping what I'm saying at all, huh? Ok, let's try small, simple ideas: I'm not saying it *IS* political (Truth is it's way more complicated than just 'Political' or 'Religious'.), I'm saying that you have to change the perception of the middle eastern public to make it LOOK political.

Since you're unlikely to re-frame THEIR public image machine, you have to re-frame YOURS TO NOT PLAY INTO THE ENEMIES HANDS. (Which is what I do blame on Trump)

Change the narrative that the public is seeing. Effect change using Media. Hell, if you want half the middle east as your new besties, go in and relieve Gaza. Terrorists would have a harder time pitching 'America the Villain' in the face of US soldiers visibly aiding the citizens in that horror, in seeming defiance of Israel. It'd never happen, but it's an example of how to do things better.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:


The only person you are fooling by calling ISIS' fight political is yourself. They are a group that have shown time and time again how dead set they are in their motives. How many more terrorists have to say "Allahu Ackbar" before that gets made clear?

Still not grasping what I'm saying at all, huh? Ok, let's try small, simple ideas: I'm not saying it *IS* political (Truth is it's way more complicated than just 'Political' or 'Religious'.), I'm saying that you have to change the perception of the middle eastern public to make it LOOK political.

Because the US needs to keep meddling in the affairs of the Sandbox? That's definitely worked out in the past.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Because the US needs to keep meddling in the affairs of the Sandbox? That's definitely worked out in the past.

Not meddling cost 20% of the Federal Budget per year when that was policy. It still resulted in American civilians dying in what we now would call 'terrorists attacks'. 'Meddling' the dey of Algiers palace pretty hard put a halt to it.

Meddling is cheaper, but needs to be done smarter.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Because the US needs to keep meddling in the affairs of the Sandbox? That's definitely worked out in the past.

You are involved in ME politics. There are economic connections that are necessary, and a political history that can't be simply abandoned. There is no option to simply not be involved. That is fantasy.

The only meaningful question is what the best way to manage involvement.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
See, they do understand the importance of a minutes silence when it suits them. Evil hateful bastards.

Playing devil's advocate here but when was the last time a Western football team held a minute of silence for a terror attack happening on Saudi Arabia or Yemen? (plenty of them around).

jouso wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
See, they do understand the importance of a minutes silence when it suits them. Evil hateful bastards.

Playing devil's advocate here but when was the last time a Western football team held a minute of silence for a terror attack happening on Saudi Arabia or Yemen? (plenty of them around).

I am pretty damned sure Portugal would do it if the other team was going to do it. It's called having a modicum of respect and decency.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
See, they do understand the importance of a minutes silence when it suits them. Evil hateful bastards.

Playing devil's advocate here but when was the last time a Western football team held a minute of silence for a terror attack happening on Saudi Arabia or Yemen? (plenty of them around).

I am pretty damned sure Portugal would do it if the other team was going to do it. It's called having a modicum of respect and decency.

If someone called it for a genuine and good reason. They would respect the gesture.