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Clearly the wrong thread. Snip.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

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 lessthanjeff wrote:
That's why I kept asking you if you were finding the rule somewhere that says "all units in the detachment have to have the world eater's faction" but so far it sounds like not.

Except it does in EVERY SINGLE DETACHMENT "enery unit in this army must have the SAME faction" not a COMMOM faction. Thats how you determine the faction of you army.

I don't know what you're quoting, but the quote from page 214 in the "choosing an army" passage of the matched play rules says "All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have at least one faction keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS)". So again, the rule specifies that only one keyword must be in common, not all of them as you seem to be asserting. They all have Chaos, so the army faction rules spell out that you can combine the units in one army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

That only tells you the limits of what you can bring. Not HOW to determine the faction. If you include IG units then you HAVE to make the detachment Imperium, if you bring SM then you can choose Imperium, or Adeptus Astertes.

Then that would counter GW's claims about army building because the rules for a Space Wolves army are the same as the ones for a Thousand Sons one. Only a "Space Wolves" army may include units like Blood Claws and you're saying it's not a Space Wolves army anymore it's an Imperium army. Therefore, you're denying that you can mix units like Blood Claws and Leman Russes in the same army.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
If we went with your interpretation, then all the times they've been advertising having Space Wolves and Astra Militarum in the same army would be lies. The Space Wolves (and other chapter rules) state the same things and show a list of units that count as Space Wolves, but since they're Imperium you can still add in from other forces that are Imperium and that doesn't stop you from having troop choice Blood Claws.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

What does it say about ARMIES under matched play?

I already applied the quote for this one, but I'll reemphasize that the rule you are directing us to specifically says you only have to share at least one keyword for building a detachment. That's the restriction. All mentioned units do as they have keyword "Chaos".

So just bring a EC Chaos Lord as well, not like their expensive.


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 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

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 lessthanjeff wrote:
That's why I kept asking you if you were finding the rule somewhere that says "all units in the detachment have to have the world eater's faction" but so far it sounds like not.

Except it does in EVERY SINGLE DETACHMENT "enery unit in this army must have the SAME faction" not a COMMOM faction. Thats how you determine the faction of you army.

I don't know what you're quoting, but the quote from page 214 in the "choosing an army" passage of the matched play rules says "All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are UNALIGNED, must have at least one faction keyword in common (e.g. IMPERIUM or CHAOS)". So again, the rule specifies that only one keyword must be in common, not all of them as you seem to be asserting. They all have Chaos, so the army faction rules spell out that you can combine the units in one army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

That only tells you the limits of what you can bring. Not HOW to determine the faction. If you include IG units then you HAVE to make the detachment Imperium, if you bring SM then you can choose Imperium, or Adeptus Astertes.

Then that would counter GW's claims about army building because the rules for a Space Wolves army are the same as the ones for a Thousand Sons one. Only a "Space Wolves" army may include units like Blood Claws and you're saying it's not a Space Wolves army anymore it's an Imperium army. Therefore, you're denying that you can mix units like Blood Claws and Leman Russes in the same army.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
If we went with your interpretation, then all the times they've been advertising having Space Wolves and Astra Militarum in the same army would be lies. The Space Wolves (and other chapter rules) state the same things and show a list of units that count as Space Wolves, but since they're Imperium you can still add in from other forces that are Imperium and that doesn't stop you from having troop choice Blood Claws.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

What does it say about ARMIES under matched play?

I already applied the quote for this one, but I'll reemphasize that the rule you are directing us to specifically says you only have to share at least one keyword for building a detachment. That's the restriction. All mentioned units do as they have keyword "Chaos".

Ill respond here since this is not the place to have a discussion:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729174.page#9436669

Yes, that is what we're saying. You can bring them all in one detachment but you'll have to bring extra characters to share buffs etc. You're just bringing the dataslates that show them as troop options (and don't have any restrictions there about how they can be fielded).

It's the same thing all the other factions are doing to combine armies. The downside being that you'd end up with lots of different Legions that can't share auras.

The downside will presumably be more significant when codices come out and there's some benefit to being a full EC army without any non-EC units, but for now it's a very small penalty.

I got a couple games in with my Thousand Sons, so I'll share what I saw from my testing games.

The rubrics actually did pretty well for me. I did have a hard time getting them out of combat when they got charged with vehicles or huge infantry swarms, but I think I'll just have to get some more melee units to keep near them to bail them out. The daemon prince helped on that front but I think a couple maulerfiends or maybe even Helbrutes will be needed. Soulreaper cannons probably aren't needed, but even with just 2 warpflamers in each squad my opponents kept trying to charge from outside their range and ended up failing a lot of those as a result.

Scarab Occult were decent for dropping down and sniping a character or tying up back field units, but both games mine died within a single turn. Their shooting was great but I found their melee a little disappointing. Thinking about running one big unit of them and a Sorc in Term armor to teleport in with them and grant them an extra movement so they can easily multicharge a couple backfield units to give the rest of my army time to advance through heavy firepower.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I got a couple games in with my Thousand Sons, so I'll share what I saw from my testing games.

The rubrics actually did pretty well for me. I did have a hard time getting them out of combat when they got charged with vehicles or huge infantry swarms, but I think I'll just have to get some more melee units to keep near them to bail them out. The daemon prince helped on that front but I think a couple maulerfiends or maybe even Helbrutes will be needed. Soulreaper cannons probably aren't needed, but even with just 2 warpflamers in each squad my opponents kept trying to charge from outside their range and ended up failing a lot of those as a result.

Scarab Occult were decent for dropping down and sniping a character or tying up back field units, but both games mine died within a single turn. Their shooting was great but I found their melee a little disappointing. Thinking about running one big unit of them and a Sorc in Term armor to teleport in with them and grant them an extra movement so they can easily multicharge a couple backfield units to give the rest of my army time to advance through heavy firepower.

Do you think two squads of Scarabs would be viable? My buddy plays 1ksuns and I'm thinking of starting up a small force of them (having played about 10 games against them) I'm digging their hardcore super heavy elite style army.

Ok so looking forward to trying out 8th edition tzeentch goodness this coming weekend.

First impressions of 8th is that we dust buckets have gained a lot more flexibility in list composition at the expense of a constrained, but hugely streamlined (read less paper work), psychic phase.

Here is roughly what I'm planning on running. It is one detachment with a mix of sons and tzeentch daemons:

HQ
Ahriman on foot
CSM daemon prince with 2x Malefic Claws and wings
Tzeentch herald on a disc

Troops

2x 9 Rubrics (including aspiring sorcerer with a sword)
Both riding a rhino with havoc launcher
10 pink horrors

Elites
9 Scarab Occult Terminators
9 Flamers of Tzeentch

Fast Attack
9 Screamers

If BattleScribe is right this comes in at 2001 points with everyone packing stock gear unless otherwise specified.

Basic plan is screamers, herald, flamers and prince go haring off at the enemy as fast as possible. Herald will boon the screamers hoping for +1T and otherwise just dishing out his aura. Meanwhile rhinos also boot it at the enemy. Turn 2 rubrics get out and I then have the option of deepstriking the scarabs in support of either rubrics or daemons. If they pop up near rubrics then Ahriman can cast prescience and warp time on the SoTs. This means 36 2+ to hit inferno bolter rounds followed by fair odds for a charge to mop up stragglers for more 2+ to hit goodness. If by some miracle they are affected by the princes aura then that's 2+ re rolled...Similar but less effective shenanigans can be pulled by the CSM prince who can manage either prescience or warp time.

Meanwhile the horrors chill out on their deck chairs preferably near an objective.

The list has a good dose of smite (3 "proper" smiltings and 4 reduced effectiveness smitings).

It also relatively hardy with a fair number of hardy "all is dust" wounds and T4 4++ multi wound models.

I think I'm, going to have issues dealing with armour. Herald, prince and screamers together can do a fair number on tough targets I hope with lampreys bite, heralds strength aura and potentially an extra +1 S from boon (far from guaranteed as a result of both the random roll and need to pass a psychic test). Might also have issues with hordes but I'm hoping between flamers, buckets of screamer attacks and precise application of SoT inferno bolters I should put out a fair showing.

Oddly, I couldn't get the points to work out until dropping unit size down the sacred number...

Thoughts and comments would be appreciated. Will do my best to report back after the weekend.





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Do you think two squads of Scarabs would be viable? My buddy plays 1ksuns and I'm thinking of starting up a small force of them (having played about 10 games against them) I'm digging their hardcore super heavy elite style army.

The question is, how do the rubric fare in comparison to the scarab?

The two are really, REALLY similar, and on paper it seems to me like the scarab is slightly more than twice as powerful for slightly less tahn twice the price.

5 SoTs are broadly equivalent points wise as 10 Rubrics (Rubrics are a touch cheaper). Firepower wise they are nearly the same (assuming inferno bolters ignoring other toys for now). SoT get more punch in cc with power weapons. Both have a mini sorcerer.

Where I think Rubrics pull slightly ahead of the SoT is (i) all is dust on SoT doesn't improve survivability against volume basic weapon fire (ii) high AP guns tend to also have high damage negating simultaneously all is dust AND the SoTs extra wound.

I don't think there is a huge amount in it and both units have their places. SoTs have the important advantage of lookin awesome too...

SOT maintain their 2+ save vs -1 ap no matter what, and while in cover vs -2 ap they still have a 2+ save, -3 ap puts them at a 4+ save and 3+ while in cover.

Compared to Rubrics who lose thier 2+ to -1 AP unless in cover, and end up with a 5+ vs -3 ap even while in cover.

SOT are much better for high AP weaponry since they will save 4 to the Rubrics 2 (out of 6) at AP -2 they save 5 to the Rubrics 3, and a CP can easily negate the 1 lost guy you might end up having casualty numbers like 1 per 12 wounds suffered for SOT. Where as a re-roll with the Rubrics might drop the number of lost models to 5 per 12 wounds suffered.

SOT are WAY more durable then Rubrics. Even when factoring in multi wound weapons. This is due to the order in which you roll the dice mattering. If your enemy rolls a 1 then a 3 then another 3 you lose 2 models, in comparison to rubrics who would lose 3 models no matter what. This is why you ALWAYS have your opponent roll damage 1 die at a time.

I´m thinking about starting up a Thousands sons army, since I´m getting bored painting Necrons (lousy metallic pieces of crap). But I´m having trouble trying to figure out what I should start with.

I was thinking about 2 ten man squads of Rubric marines, and maybe a smaller group marines with flamers in a transport to get them into range.
Perhaps to groups of 10 Tzaangors to bubblewrap my precious marines. But what should I use to bust up the enemy tanks?

I was saying I want to try the 10 man Scarab Occult unit because it makes it easier to hit them with powers like warp time or prescience and it makes it more valuable to burn 2 command points to interrupt with the 1 bigger unit.

Durability wise, my rubrics were the ones surviving to the end of the game because my terminators just became the targets of more autocannons and other multi damage weapons. One volley of autocannons (and some bad rolling even with a reroll burned) wiped 4 out of 5 of my terminators.

I found the rubrics drew less of the heavy gunfire and were less concerned with multi damage weapons which was nice.

KhazModan wrote:
I´m thinking about starting up a Thousands sons army, since I´m getting bored painting Necrons (lousy metallic pieces of crap). But I´m having trouble trying to figure out what I should start with.

I was thinking about 2 ten man squads of Rubric marines, and maybe a smaller group marines with flamers in a transport to get them into range.
Perhaps to groups of 10 Tzaangors to bubblewrap my precious marines. But what should I use to bust up the enemy tanks?

Two Firebomb units will kill a tank in a turn.

Firebomb?
As in a rubric squad with flamers?

How are you planning to ever reach a tank with these? you move the transport up, the tank backs away. you only have 16+d6 inch threat range from when your transport stopped last turn, less if you think on the fact not everyone in the squad can be at the front, so more like 12+d6 inches.

I appreciate it may not be of much use to those who regularly attend tournaments, but the FW Chaos Index gives us some interesting options.

My choices, which I'll likely order Friday is a Xiphon (nippy, loadsa Dakka), and a Leviathan, with at least one Butcher Cannon Array, as that can inflict -2 Ld on enemy units, helping me to maximise Battleshock losses. And that's something I consider valuable given our armies tend to lack numbers.

May get a couple of spare Leviathan weapons, see what works best.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Firebomb?
As in a rubric squad with flamers?

How are you planning to ever reach a tank with these? you move the transport up, the tank backs away. you only have 16+d6 inch threat range from when your transport stopped last turn, less if you think on the fact not everyone in the squad can be at the front, so more like 12+d6 inches.

All flamers even the AS.

You could try to run him down, or have a unit in the Rhino, have the Rubrics start just to the side have the Rhino advance then the Rubrics. Turn 2 you dump the squad out have the rubrics advance towards the Rhino get in the Rhino then advances. You have now moved a squad of Rubrics 24" in a single move phase. Get the Rhino within 1 in of the tank you want to kill and theres nothing he can do about running even if he advances away he has to roll a 5+ and you have to roll a 1 for him to avoid the fire.

Why are you running the Rubrics on foot the first turn? If they've all got flamers they aren't doing anything useful at range, and they don't gain anything by waiting to embark. Just start them in the Rhino and run it straight ahead full tilt.

All flamers seems awfully expensive, and despite our resilience a 5 man unit is just a bit too squishy for my tastes?

In my games so far it has been the daemon princes killing vehicles. Advanced them up behind tzaangors and used warp time to get them a second movement when they were close enough to make the charge. Tempted to try the same thing using screamers next time. The Princes get 7 attacks that pretty much all hit and then against most vehicles he averages 8 to 10 damage.

Has anyone else really been loving their bolter boys in 20 man squads? I've played 20 man double soulreaper in my last few games and it's great to have a big beefy target for Prescience and Warp Time. I'm playing matched and playing without Magnus so the only competitors for Warptime are my 20 Tzaangor screen and for prescience my laspred. I'm usually able to warptime up the field turn 1 and get off single tap shots at at least 1 valuable target across the table from me. Wounding on 5s vs T7 has done wonders for the power of Thousand Sons across the board IMO, and Ahriman chilling out behind the first line of rubrics also buffing the Tzaangors makes everyone quite durable.

Chrysis wrote:
Why are you running the Rubrics on foot the first turn? If they've all got flamers they aren't doing anything useful at range, and they don't gain anything by waiting to embark. Just start them in the Rhino and run it straight ahead full tilt.

Because the unit you put in the Rhino can be a 10 man squad with a Soul Reaper Cannon, you can dump them out and move them up 5"(8" total) then warptime them up another 5" (13" total). Which puts you in Rapid Fire range on turn 1. Move the Rhinos up to block off the more, effective fire. If you play your cards right you can have 2 units of Tzzangors 1 ten man unit of Rubrics and 4 Rhinos with 2 units of Tzzangors, and 4 units of 5 man Full Flamer Squads for 1535 points 13-15 inches forward from where they were.

Magnus


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Also SOTs

FW confirm (by mail) that we have access to the IA index, and that it will be properly noted in future prints.

Yay of achea pattern decimators taking the front lines?

So I've got a question. Why is everyone talking about casting warp time on SOTs that dropped via teleportation?

The rules for reinforcement in the BRBliterally state that a model cannot move any more during a turn in which they have deployed through teleportation.

DaPino wrote:
So I've got a question. Why is everyone talking about casting warp time on SOTs that dropped via teleportation?

The rules for reinforcement in the BRBliterally state that a model cannot move any more during a turn in which they have deployed through teleportation.

They can't move in the MOVEMENT phase.

Warp time is not in the movement phase, the restriction has already lifted.

 BoomWolf wrote:

DaPino wrote:
So I've got a question. Why is everyone talking about casting warp time on SOTs that dropped via teleportation?

The rules for reinforcement in the BRBliterally state that a model cannot move any more during a turn in which they have deployed through teleportation.

They can't move in the MOVEMENT phase.

Warp time is not in the movement phase, the restriction has already lifted.

Are you sure about that? Warptime operates "as if it were its Movement phase", so presumably all of the restrictions imposed on the Movement phase would still apply.

And again, it doesn't say movement phase, it says turn.
Cannot move or advance for the rest of the turn.

Honestly I think the intent is warptime works, but I can see the rules issue. You need specific permissions to override specific restrictions.

Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)

Moving and charging are two very different actions...