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I think toughness wise thousand sons are where they need to be. Damage wise with bolters they need a stratagem or psychic power to boost their output. Both of which are possible, add in a point decrease and we could see rubrics and OST go from meh to niiiicccceeee.

I hope we get a DS stratagem to show Ahrimans knowledge of the webway.

I don’t know what they’ll do to make tzaangors more attractive, at the moment I see no reason for them when we can take brimstones and fill out a cheap demon battalion.

SilverAlien wrote:
I'd also point out the relative durability of PM and rubrics depend heavily on what you are fighting. Against bolters in cover, obviously PM win. Against lasguns in the open, rubrics win. Rubrics generally tend to be better against hordes, who often have low enough str toughness 5 doesn't matter, and the majority of damage will be one. Cover shifts things in PM favor, but both units will likely end up in melee where cover doesn't help and the rubric ability still works, swinging it back around. So they are generally in the same ballpark durability wise.

Except the difference is when PM pull ahead they do so in larger margins having. Assuming 10 hits and calculating to models lost consider the following.


Bolter no cover/in cover. Lasgun/incover.
PM. 718/.359 .718/.359

RM. 825/.825 .544/.544

So you can see here while they do both have advantages in certain areas the plague marines end up on top at about a 2/5 ratio (you will lose 2 PM for every 5 Rubrics. This gap is basically the same as accross the board. The only difference is while in cover against S 6-7 with Ap 1-2 weapons Rubrics do noticibly better (2/5 ratio inverts) one of the main problems with this Plasma Rifles are AP-3 and by far the most common special weapon used in the game (in my meta at least) and the ratio for that is something like .41. Overall PM average about 3/5ths the losses Rubrics do over the course of a game. However we pay 1 more point in durability for some reason even though we should be paying at least 1 less probably 2.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Tzaangor Shaman aura will probably be +1 to hit rolls. That's what it in Age of Sigmar, at any rate (though the effect is listed on the datasheet for the skyfires/enlightened for some reason??? AoS rules are weird).

In other news, trying to build a daemonkin list using the new codex is a serious effort in frustration. Everything in the Tzeentch list is just so much better than what Thousand Sons have to offer, and Tzeentch Daemons aren't exactly this crazy god mode army either. It really drives in the point that the only A grade unit we have is Magnus.

No the Shaman will not add a +1 to hit there is no way they are going to allow a mob of 30 guys that get 61 attacks to hit on 2s and reroll 1s, they will have some sort of LD buff attached to them.

Yes and the only reason Magnus is good is because hes a Daemon, in fact he does better in a Tzeentch army then in a TS army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:
Skyfires are confirmed over facebook.

That means we offically have more Gor units in our army now then we do Rubricae.

Dont really get the crying about tzaangors..beyond them we dont have anything we could add..apart from a psyker dreadnaught.

It probably will be a LD buff from the shaman Ie a completely useless buff just like our WL trait is useless against 90% of the other armies in the game.

I hope they let skyfires keep their mortal wound generation ot something though, that would be nice our army/deamons are meh in 40k but at leas theyre still top tier in aos so theres that to be happy about i suppose

Mesokhornee wrote:
Dont really get the crying about tzaangors..beyond them we dont have anything we could add..apart from a psyker dreadnaught.

It probably will be a LD buff from the shaman Ie a completely useless buff just like our WL trait is useless against 90% of the other armies in the game.

I hope they let skyfires keep their mortal wound generation ot something though, that would be nice our army/deamons are meh in 40k but at leas theyre still top tier in aos so theres that to be happy about i suppose

Look, I love the tzaangor models and I love getting new ones. It's the fact that it's not a thousand sons codex anymore. It's Tzeentch with a splash of Thousand Sons

Of course it's a Thousand Sons codex. Tzaangors of all types are exclusive to Thousand Sons and, per the fluff, provide the fodder infantry of the legion. I'm as disappointed as anyone else that we aren't getting more Legionnaire units - especially a melee variant - but the hand we've been dealt is acceptable as functionally those new units are probably being put in to fill some gaps in our roster. We went from having 6 exclusive units to 10 exclusive units, and the side benefit is - like Daemons - the army is awesome value if you want to get into Age of Sigmar or vice versa, something that the other Legions don't have to their name.

As far as the Shaman is concerned, it's hard to say what he will do. Re-rolling 1s to-wound for Tzaangor units is a distinct possibility, but a flat +1 to-hit isn't completely out of the question. Remember, Broodlords give Genestealers +1 to their to-hit rolls, and Genestealers generate more attacks than Tzaangors per model.

Honestly, the Enlightened and confirmation of Skyfires being present intrigue me far more. In Age of Sigmar, the Skyfires manage to be deadly in combat thanks to how brutal Disks of Tzeentch are in that game, but it's an entirely different case in 40K. On top of that, Tzaangor units in general are the "elite" of the Tzeentch Arcanites, with basic Tzaangors being classed as medium-heavy infantry in Age of Sigmar thanks to having two wounds each. In 40K, again, different story, so what will that entail for the disk-riding ones? Two or three wounds each? Mortal wound output for either unit? Sniper capabilities for Skyfires (as that is what they are primarily used for in AOS)? I guess we'll see.

The Mutalith is....noteworthy, but if it's anything like it was in WHFB and is in AOS, I'm not sure it will be a great role-filler for Thousand Sons. In those game systems, it's not really a beat-stick, it's not really a tank, it's not really a support piece, and it's not a super reliable debuffer. I'm curious to see what they do with it but I'm not expecting much.

The mutilath is an absolute beast in AoS.

I'm not saying it's bad in AOS per-se, more that it's an oddball unit that doesn't fit a traditional archetype i.e. it's not the tankiest but still more than tanky enough, good but not great melee damage, etc. Extrapolating a clear role for it in a Thousand Sons army based on that is difficult, it certainly won't be as scary a fighter as a Daemon Prince but I'm guessing the Aura of Mutation will give it a unique spot.

I always liked it for helping with map control. In aos to come near it you have to be willing to accept your units are going to get debuffed at best, or be taking d3/d6 mortal wounds made it very useful vs melee heavy armies or units

The Mutalith is as Mesokhornee say, a giant map control tool. Try to put him behind some LOS blocking terrain. He can tank enough fire so you enemy needs to put actual effort in killing him, and he can totally defend himself in meele, at the same time he is creating a "no-go" zone in the map.
Or at least thats how it is in AoS. If they translate it in w40k he could be a very usefull tool. But one hard to use, and maybe in the "Spam just one way to play" that is the meta of many people maybe a more "versatile" unit like him isn't gonna work.

The way I look at it, every unit that targets the Mutalith is one less unit targeting Magnus (especially since it seems clear that he's losing access to Warptime).

I feel like if the mutilath keeps its mortal wound generation it could be useful still in the same role. Even a horde army isnt going to like taking d3-d6+ mortal wounds if its decent force multiplier that could be nice as well...honestly reading the fluff and then the rules for both thousand sons, tzeentch demons and grey knights its pretty clear GW doesnt realy know what to do with psyker armies at in regards to the TT

Caederes wrote:
Of course it's a Thousand Sons codex. Tzaangors of all types are exclusive to Thousand Sons and, per the fluff, provide the fodder infantry of the legion. I'm as disappointed as anyone else that we aren't getting more Legionnaire units - especially a melee variant - but the hand we've been dealt is acceptable as functionally those new units are probably being put in to fill some gaps in our roster. We went from having 6 exclusive units to 10 exclusive units, and the side benefit is - like Daemons - the army is awesome value if you want to get into Age of Sigmar or vice versa, something that the other Legions don't have to their name.

Fodder does no make up the bulk of an army or even a large minority of the army, they are throw away troops whose only purpose is to die, you don't support them, you don't give them good gear, you feed them enough to feed the cannons.

Caederes wrote:
As far as the Shaman is concerned, it's hard to say what he will do. Re-rolling 1s to-wound for Tzaangor units is a distinct possibility, but a flat +1 to-hit isn't completely out of the question. Remember, Broodlords give Genestealers +1 to their to-hit rolls, and Genestealers generate more attacks than Tzaangors per model.

No its not your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 AP -1 attacks and hits on a 2+

Caederes wrote:
Honestly, the Enlightened and confirmation of Skyfires being present intrigue me far more. In Age of Sigmar, the Skyfires manage to be deadly in combat thanks to how brutal Disks of Tzeentch are in that game, but it's an entirely different case in 40K. On top of that, Tzaangor units in general are the "elite" of the Tzeentch Arcanites, with basic Tzaangors being classed as medium-heavy infantry in Age of Sigmar thanks to having two wounds each. In 40K, again, different story, so what will that entail for the disk-riding ones? Two or three wounds each? Mortal wound output for either unit? Sniper capabilities for Skyfires (as that is what they are primarily used for in AOS)? I guess we'll see.

poo

Caederes wrote:
The Mutalith is....noteworthy, but if it's anything like it was in WHFB and is in AOS, I'm not sure it will be a great role-filler for Thousand Sons. In those game systems, it's not really a beat-stick, it's not really a tank, it's not really a support piece, and it's not a super reliable debuffer. I'm curious to see what they do with it but I'm not expecting much.

I can think of some uses it might have, but it doesn't involve any Rubrics at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh good AC got new models they needed it super bad...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/14/next-weeks-pre-orders-golden-legion-goes-forth/

I have an odd feeling that skyfires will be the go-to.

Long range Sniper or 6's = Mortal Wounds mechanic much as In AOS makes sense.

They will probably be a harassment unit, Enlightened sound interesting but its a shooting edition. If the Thousand sons get a lore with a few damage slinging spells + the Skyfires it sounds like we could nail almost any character hiding in the ranks of our opponents fairly easily at 24 inchs or less.

Sounds like theres *alot* of potential for that. Leave the tzaangors to clog and fight and rubrics to plug anything with decent armor.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Fodder does no make up the bulk of an army or even a large minority of the army, they are throw away troops whose only purpose is to die, you don't support them, you don't give them good gear, you feed them enough to feed the cannons.

No its not your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 AP -1 attacks and hits on a 2+

poo

I can think of some uses it might have, but it doesn't involve any Rubrics at all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh good AC got new models they needed it super bad...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/14/next-weeks-pre-orders-golden-legion-goes-forth/

Ok, seeing as you clearly don't know anything about the actual Thousand Sons, let me enlighten you courtesy of Lexicanum.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Fang
Thousand Sons Strength
*Approximately 700 Legionaires.
*2 Million Spireguard plus armour and artillery.
*Cataphract Robot Maniple.

What was that about fodder not making up the bulk of the army? Do you even understand the concept of fodder in the context of Warhammer 40,000? I'm assuming you haven't read up on the background of the Astra Militarum....or the Iron Warriors....or the Alpha Legion....or really any Chaos Legion. Try again. As far as "you don't support them" and further comments on the matter, again, take a look at the Astra Militarum. The vast majority of all Guardsmen are essentially fodder for the tanks/navy/etc. However, they are supported both narratively and in-game thanks to the Vox network, Orders, etc. Tyranid Termagants and Hormagaunts are supported by the larger beasts such as Tervigons and Warriors, working in tandem with each other, yet they are fodder as well. Let's extrapolate this all to Tzaangors. Why are you complaining that they are supported, given good gear, etc? What gear do Tzaangors have? They are half naked mutants given basic weapons and armour....sound familiar? Support-wise, a psychic leader of the Tzaangors directing its' lesser kin makes perfect sense. Your argument, unfortunately, makes absolutely no sense.

"No its not, you're not getting a model that costs 7 points and has 2 Strength 5 AP-3 attacks on the charge and hits on 2+ with potential to deal 2 Damage per wound." Man, that new Chaos Daemons codex is going to be quite a shock to you if you have never come up against Bloodletters Now stop being ridiculous and understand that your complaint is as baseless as ever and that it is still entirely possible a Shaman can provide a +1 to-hit buff to Tzaangor units. Bloodletters get that buff on their own!

Oh look, that incredibly mature attitude is on display yet again! I'm sorry but I refuse to play the game of expecting the worst and proclaiming it to everyone like it is a god-given truth.

So what uses does it involve then? If it's purpose is to be a fire magnet, you'll take it to take fire off of your other valuable units.....like Rubric Marines.

Let's top it off with complaints about the Custodes! Wow! So original! Those Custodes that had a grand total of 1 plastic unit getting new plastic units is awesome, much like when Harlequins got a whole bunch of new units that didn't exist before. It's good for the game. I don't see how on earth that's a negative.


To everyone else, yeah, I can see the Mutalith being in that kind of role in 40K as I'm not sure what other role it'd fill that another monster isn't likely to just do better. If nothing else, it's another cross-compatible model that will hopefully be useful in both game systems.

Well, the negative thing about the custards getting models isn't the fact that they are getting a release, its that the amount of things that gets released is limited - and there are many things more worth that would be better for the game than yet another imperial super-space-marines.
Including large swats of armies who outright lack plastic models for SO long, for no good reason, and the fact that codcies for already established factions got pushed back for placing a new one that hardly provides anything new anyway.

I couldn't care less about Tzaangors really (I proxy mine with Kairic Acolytes anyway), but the Mutalith has my attention.

I hope it doesn't tread too much on the Maulerfiend's toes and brings something new and exciting to the battlefield.

That AOS aura can actually be fun, especially if it works out of LOS.

I'm using one unit of tzaangors and one of kairic acolytes to differentiate them. (and beacuse thats what comes in the big Tzeentch arcanites box. On a sidenote hurray for already owning the shaman and enlightened/skyfires when that leak dropped.)

I've almost finished painting my 2000pt thousand sons list and will be taking them to a tournament next month, we will see if its before or after the codex drops. I'm reasonably confident either way.

Has anyone tried the new Pink Horrors blobs is support of their Sons yet? I've tried 20s but not 30s... I guess I have a lot more gribblies to paint :/

I think they'll soon become a staple for the Sons - e.g. 2 Sons detachments and a Daemon batallion. They are really useful and provide what we need, namely to cause havoc, to bubblewrap, and to just delete hordes.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Caederes wrote:

Caederes wrote:
As far as the Shaman is concerned, it's hard to say what he will do. Re-rolling 1s to-wound for Tzaangor units is a distinct possibility, but a flat +1 to-hit isn't completely out of the question. Remember, Broodlords give Genestealers +1 to their to-hit rolls, and Genestealers generate more attacks than Tzaangors per model.

No its not your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 AP -1 attacks and hits on a 2+

I know math is hard, but bear in mind here that the example Caederes brought up, Genestealers, are a 14-point model that literally get 4 S4 Ap-1 attacks that hit on 2+...and rend on a 6 to wound.

Maybe they won't, but it's not so outlandish an idea that it can be dismissed out of hand like you're doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:
Has anyone tried the new Pink Horrors blobs is support of their Sons yet? I've tried 20s but not 30s... I guess I have a lot more gribblies to paint :/

I think they'll soon become a staple for the Sons - e.g. 2 Sons detachments and a Daemon batallion. They are really useful and provide what we need, namely to cause havoc, to bubblewrap, and to just delete hordes.

As yet I only have 15 pinks (need to buy and paint up another box of 10) but I had a lot of success with a blob of 15 pinks, 10 brims, 10 blues in split in my latest game against some big model focused death guard/nurgle daemons. Paired them with Changeling and a Herald and despite basically never succeeding in my buff spell casts (flickering fires and boon both failed 3 turns in a row) they were an incredibly solid meatwall, slowly grinding down 20 plaguebearers and tanking the attacks over various rounds of a great unclean one, corbax utterblight, and a daemon prince. I had 10 rubrics and 3 flamers sitting behind them and hurling dakka over the wall to shoot up the various units crashing into the horrors.

The only trouble I have with the idea of the megablob is having to keep 30 pinks from getting engaged on. I routinely get to use my shooting attack exactly once per game with my horrors, and I even bring a second 30-blob of tzaangors. I guess if I was trying to use the tzaangors to screen the pinks as well (typically one screen covers half my army while the other screens the other half) it might be doable but 30 models are hard to screen.

Caederes wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Fodder does no make up the bulk of an army or even a large minority of the army, they are throw away troops whose only purpose is to die, you don't support them, you don't give them good gear, you feed them enough to feed the cannons.

No its not your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 AP -1 attacks and hits on a 2+

poo

I can think of some uses it might have, but it doesn't involve any Rubrics at all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh good AC got new models they needed it super bad...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/14/next-weeks-pre-orders-golden-legion-goes-forth/

Ok, seeing as you clearly don't know anything about the actual Thousand Sons, let me enlighten you courtesy of Lexicanum.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Fang
Thousand Sons Strength
*Approximately 700 Legionaires.
*2 Million Spireguard plus armour and artillery.
*Cataphract Robot Maniple.

And your point being what? Outside of Black Templar, Space Marine factions supposedly only have 1,000 marines. So you're saying we should knock the marines down to 3 kits? How many do they have in their dex as of right now? 30? 35?

Hey Scotsman, yeah, the horrors become a top priority once they've dropped, and tend to get locked in cc after their alpha, but I really don't think that has to be a problem for us, as your tactics exemplify.

1) 140pts is cheap - if it buys us a great alpha and a very tanky meatshield, then I'mhappy with that.

2) their range means we have some flex in terms of deployment, so they are easy to drop in as a screen, whilst still burning things to the ground.

3) their overwatch is legit! 20 with buffs should hit 11 or 12 times on overwatch. I can get behind that.

Like you said, the flamer's extended range on their pistols make them a great pair, with Rubric soulreaping away. I like the tactical options this all opens up - exciting times

ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE!

The Skyfires probably will either be Sniper, Anti-tank (Melta arrow? maybe?) or some kind of Mortal-Wound to hit ratio (the AOS incarnation causes additional mortals on 6's to hit)

The Enlightened are interesting but their buff would only make sense if they could survive a beating, "guided by the past" gives the entire unit re-rolls to hit AND wound if they have been swung at in a combat......well..... This sounds great against chaff units but a direct translation from AOS to 40k would make the unit weak. Id hope this rule doesn't translate directly. (another case for skyfires given ranged harassment and objective capping being big deals in 8th)

The shaman will be re-rolls of some kind judging by normal "Astartes" unit characters in elite OR hq slots, probably wounds as some said earlier given its a logical assumption based on what we have access to now. but boy what I would give to have access to that for the Rubrics, deadly shooting applied directly to face.

I would expect details in the next 2 weeks or so to start coming out, shop owner I know said the pre-order date for Custodes is saturday the 20th and the release date is the 27th with *everything* coming out in 1 big wave. So that leaves early february / mid February for the sons!

I just wanted a pskyer dread and some automata..y cant we have these GW..instead AC is gettig new models ive never even seen anyone play with anything even related to AC outside of 30k i know everyone always wants their faction to get new stuff etc but we really did not need anything more imperium at all.

And honestly i get the whole "this isnt thousand sons" argument, thousand sons basically dont exist anymore, apart from some raiding warbands and the like, we are no longer a legion. It would honestly, in more instances be more fluff accurate to play black legion with a thousand sons detachment as support for regular CSM forces it does stll kind of suck sometimes how our legion is basically tzeentch deamons splashed with space marine flavor...unless of course you use FW models, thats the only way you can build a decent competetive-ish and "pure" 1k sons army at the moment

Ahriman21 wrote:
ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE!

The Skyfires probably will either be Sniper, Anti-tank (Melta arrow? maybe?) or some kind of Mortal-Wound to hit ratio (the AOS incarnation causes additional mortals on 6's to hit)

The Enlightened are interesting but their buff would only make sense if they could survive a beating, "guided by the past" gives the entire unit re-rolls to hit AND wound if they have been swung at in a combat......well..... This sounds great against chaff units but a direct translation from AOS to 40k would make the unit weak. Id hope this rule doesn't translate directly. (another case for skyfires given ranged harassment and objective capping being big deals in 8th)

The shaman will be re-rolls of some kind judging by normal "Astartes" unit characters in elite OR hq slots, probably wounds as some said earlier given its a logical assumption based on what we have access to now. but boy what I would give to have access to that for the Rubrics, deadly shooting applied directly to face.

I would expect details in the next 2 weeks or so to start coming out, shop owner I know said the pre-order date for Custodes is saturday the 20th and the release date is the 27th with *everything* coming out in 1 big wave. So that leaves early february / mid February for the sons!

I doubt they will get the Mortal-wound on hit ratio. With Prescience they will be putting out mortal wounds on 5s that's 1/3 and with rerolling 1s you can get it to almost 1 in 2 a 12 man squad would put out 6 mortal wounds per turn which seems a bit much.

I’m curious as to whether we get our own psychic tree in addition to or excluding heretic astartes.

demontalons wrote:
I’m curious as to whether we get our own psychic tree in addition to or excluding heretic astartes.

Im sure we will get at least 1 maybe even 2.

Well a logical thought would be more then likely 2 lores. As its already confirmed Magnus will know MORE then his current three spells. (Warhammer community confirmed this) If we take the "rule of one" into account this would make sorcerers and Ahriman almost useless if he can chuck 4-6 spells by himself.....

Currently the lore Dark hereticus is 6 spells + Tzeentch mark spell Weaver of Fates attached to the lore.

Along with Tzeentchs fail sto--- I mean....firestorm.... though this spell is statistically so bad it makes my eyes bleed we still do technically have it.

So its not a huge leap to think they will give us an additional 4 spells to go along with the 8 we already have. I would wager it will probably happen. (makes sense at any rate)

You know what would be cool? An anti-infantry spell of some kind that did a lot of non-mortal wounds. I'm hoping that this codex is the one where GW pulls their heads out of their butts on Mortal Wounds being an INCREDIBLY BORING mechanic/way to represent the myriad forms of psychic attack in the 40k universe and gives a psychic power that's meant to clear out hordes.

That would go a long way towards making Thousand Sons viable to play as a standalone force rather than having them lean on tzeentch daemons for their chaff clearing needs.

Mesokhornee wrote:
I just wanted a pskyer dread and some automata..y cant we have these GW..instead AC is gettig new models ive never even seen anyone play with anything even related to AC outside of 30k i know everyone always wants their faction to get new stuff etc but we really did not need anything more imperium at all.

We may yet get a psyker dread. It'd be easy enough for the codex to give you the option to upgrade a Helbrute to be a psyker. It's not quite the same as getting an actual 40K model for an Osiron Dreadnought, but it's in the same ballpark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

demontalons wrote:
I’m curious as to whether we get our own psychic tree in addition to or excluding heretic astartes.

When I first read this I thought you meant a Tzeentchy version of the Feculent Gnarlmaw. I am so smrt.

Anyway, based on what happened with the Death Guard, I'm going to be very (pleasantly) surprised if the Sons retain access to Dark Hereticus. It'll be great if we do, but I doubt it will happen.

Do you know what fodder is? Cannon Fodder, comes from the phrase Cattle fodder, they are units which are literally refered to as food for cannons. Do you know what food dosen't do? Kill things. Spireguard are not fodder, neither are Guardsman, Conscripts are fodder. The moment to commit support to a unit you declare it not a fodder unit.

Bloodletters can only get the bonus to S and attacks on the charge, when charged or heroic interventions, they are also T 3, and they also lack any way of augmenting thier durability, thier +1 to hit is attached to the squad size which means you can always get to it, its not tied to a charcter that can hide behind the squad. Tzzangors can get to almost the durability of a SM, Bloodletters have the durability of a Guardsman in the open, assuming no AP of course. By the way Twistbrays are the leaders of Warflocks not the Shamans.

Tzaangors have access to BASIC weapons and armor...Riding disks which were, up until now, an UPGRADE only SOME HQ units could get.

You must be a SM player. Only a SM player can think a brand new faction that hasn't been around for 2 editions deserves more attention then armies that have been around since the games inception. Not to mention armies that have needed attention for a while but have gotten none. How much money did they spend on new models for a new army when they could have spent it on armies that needed updates to models.

A Rubric Marine is a better fire magnet then Tzaangors, you will on average lose 6 Tzaangors for every 1 Rubric Marine, assuming no AP. It dosent even out until AP-2 but then who is going to shoot AP-2 weapons at a unit that only has a 5+ invul save why not shoot the AP- at that squad and save the AP for the Rubrics.

the_scotsman wrote:
I know math is hard, but bear in mind here that the example Caederes brought up, Genestealers, are a 14-point model that literally get 4 S4 Ap-1 attacks that hit on 2+...and rend on a 6 to wound.

Maybe they won't, but it's not so outlandish an idea that it can be dismissed out of hand like you're doing.

Genestealers also have higher LD, a psudo-deployment ability, 2" more movement, can take advantage of cover, can charge after advancing giving them a (30 inch range on turn 1), makeing them WAY better the Tzaangors.