Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So I am trying for hours now to find a good HQ choice for a spearhead detachment of CSM to ally to my TS. Spearhead will be 2 units of oblits + 1 unit of havocs. Here is the problem: Either we must go chaos lord in terminator armor in order to give the Oblits re-roll 1's, or we need to pick a psyker. Sorcerer/DP would do (also DP would give reroll 1's to the obliterators).

However, I just cannot justify how much worse the CSM psykers are against the TS. A TS DP has everything that a CSM DP has, plus 1 power known, 1 power cast, +1 to invul save and access to two more disciplines of spells. For free.

A sorcerer for TS has everything that a normal sorcerer in CSM has, plus 5+ invul and +1 discipline to choose from. For free as well.

I am really battling with sub-optimal choices. How would you complete the list below?

TS battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Termi Sorc, familiar, helm
TS DP, wings, talons, orb

5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc
5x rubrics, plasma pistol on sorc

10 x Scarabs, 2 x hellyfire, 2 x soulcannon

CSM Spearhead:

[INSERT HQ CHOICE]

3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
3 x Oblits of Tzeentch
5 x havocs, 4 x autocannons

How would you fill in the last HQ slot?

Well, this may be blasphemy sense this is a TSons tactics thread but..... If your going to be adding in base CSM's and need an HQ I would suggest looking at what we CAN'T do. And when it comes to that I would say you have options.

For example :

Deamon Prince of Slaanesh + Elixer + Talons = one seriously angry dude. Character trait protects from getting shot at. Its ability to just shred what it charges means as long as you can maneuver properly you could get this guy to crush another like enemy target.


If your trying to stick with the Tzeentch theme then I would say go as cheap as possible. Maybe an apostle? What is its job going to be? Just a 'tax'? If its going to drop with the oblits then yeah, a cheap lord is the best option.

I don't dare to betray Tzeentch in such a way. Don't think eternal spawnhood would suit me.

Eventually I switched the spearhead to a second TS one with an exalted on foot with temporal manipulation and diabolic strength babysitting a las defiler and two auto/las predators. Giving his aura, healing wounds, buffing himself and the defiler if people want to come close to the gunline. I just couldn't justify the tax cost of a CSM character :(

Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.

And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.

Azuza001 wrote:
Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.

And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.

I think you spend too much for just buffing single Defiler.
Defiler + Changeling + Exalted is around 450pts. Now your defiler + buffers cost like Magnus

IronChefZod wrote:
Do Thousand Sons Daemon Princes have the Psyker trait? I don't think it's listed, but other Daemon Princes gain it when they take a Nurgle, Slaneesh, or Tzeentch mark? They can clearly manifest and deny spells, but do they have the Psyker trait? I think it says it to the side of their casts and denies, but it isn't listed at the bottom with keywords. I'm assuming they do, but just wanted to double check.

That's a good catch actually. Checking the TS codex, the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch does NOT have the Psyker keyword. Cross referencing the Chaos Daemons codex, their DP doesn't have it either, and instead gains the keyword from a datasheet section. So... it's a copy error that I would expect to be addressed in the FAQ.

Azuza001 wrote:
Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.

And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.

What does Slaanesh gives to the oblits? I thought the new mark of chaos does not really mean much for the CSM aside from an extra keyword. Tzeentch oblits are <TZEENTCH> , <HERETIC ASTARTES> and <DAEMONS> so they can be buffed from practically everything in the TS list. Why Slaanesh though? Unless I got this wrong, mark does not matter when you want to give them a legion, aka Alpha legion or Iron Warriors. Or does it?

A lot of people give the slaanesh mark to obliterators, so they can use endless cacophony on them

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.

And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.

I think you spend too much for just buffing single Defiler.
Defiler + Changeling + Exalted is around 450pts. Now your defiler + buffers cost like Magnus

True but that's why I also take a second defiler or a forgefiend. If my opponent kills the defiler I have another target to buff. And if they kill both I still have the units that's can buff other things. With magnus you lose him you lose everything you invested.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.

And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.

What does Slaanesh gives to the oblits? I thought the new mark of chaos does not really mean much for the CSM aside from an extra keyword. Tzeentch oblits are <TZEENTCH> , <HERETIC ASTARTES> and <DAEMONS> so they can be buffed from practically everything in the TS list. Why Slaanesh though? Unless I got this wrong, mark does not matter when you want to give them a legion, aka Alpha legion or Iron Warriors. Or does it?

Access to Endless Cacophony - aka one of the best strats for Obliterators out there.

Azuza001 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.

And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.

I think you spend too much for just buffing single Defiler.
Defiler + Changeling + Exalted is around 450pts. Now your defiler + buffers cost like Magnus

True but that's why I also take a second defiler or a forgefiend. If my opponent kills the defiler I have another target to buff. And if they kill both I still have the units that's can buff other things. With magnus you lose him you lose everything you invested.

Support bloat can be a thing though, and Magnus can be tough to kill for his points. I think I'd rather just park two Las Preds in the back and call it a day, but I haven't thrown down against a defiler in a long time so I could be very wrong here.

As for the Forgefiend, I played with them a few times with my CSM, I found that with a prescience slap on the butt they do pretty good against elite infantry/small vehicles. I do think they need to be run in pairs, and 2 fiends+babysitter sorc will run you close to/over 500 points depending on loadout. They do have good stratagems if you have CPs to burn. Not my favorite daemon engine anymore, but I think they do get a bad rap.Plus they look great all painted up.

Forgefiends definitely get a way worse rep then they deserve. It's not that they are amazing on their own but as you say with a buff or two even they can shoot up there. Plus we have the cool deamon engine strat.

 Swiftblade wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Makes sense. My main go to unit is defiler + exalted + changling. Exalted can summon changling easily enough to get 6+++ for defiler, and cast Flickering flames on it. Exalted does prescience. Now you have one seriously effective defiler without breaking tsons detachment. I am trying a forgefiend with it for backup, but my alternative is also laz preds.

And really, if your not taking oblits as slaanesh your not really doing it the way it should be done. I am not sure what tzeentch oblits give you but I know that there has to be more effective options.

I think you spend too much for just buffing single Defiler.
Defiler + Changeling + Exalted is around 450pts. Now your defiler + buffers cost like Magnus

True but that's why I also take a second defiler or a forgefiend. If my opponent kills the defiler I have another target to buff. And if they kill both I still have the units that's can buff other things. With magnus you lose him you lose everything you invested.

Support bloat can be a thing though, and Magnus can be tough to kill for his points. I think I'd rather just park two Las Preds in the back and call it a day, but I haven't thrown down against a defiler in a long time so I could be very wrong here.

As for the Forgefiend, I played with them a few times with my CSM, I found that with a prescience slap on the butt they do pretty good against elite infantry/small vehicles. I do think they need to be run in pairs, and 2 fiends+babysitter sorc will run you close to/over 500 points depending on loadout. They do have good stratagems if you have CPs to burn. Not my favorite daemon engine anymore, but I think they do get a bad rap.Plus they look great all painted up.

Yeah, I started down this rabbit hole working on making my forgefiend better, prescience + Flickering flames. But then I took a defiler in a game for giggles and it crushed it. Killed a pred one turn with prescience and flames thanks to laz cannons and battle cannon. (2 shots, 2 hits, wound on 2's, 6+ save, that was 7 wounds there from the laz cannons)

Both my opponent and I just stared after figuring that out in game and he said some choice words about how crazy that is. He could not kill the defiler after that, all his anti tank bounced off thanks to Temporal distortion, glamor of tzeench, and weaver of fate. In all honesty I think I scared him into dedicating too much fire power into it, but it worked so well the rest of my army was given free reign to do whatever I felt like.

Throw the reroll stratagem onto the forgefiend at the same time so it was having its own special kind of fun, and I crushed his ultramarines. Have to wait and see if the trick works again tomorrow.

the_scotsman wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I have a 2000 game tomorrow against Mortarion and his DG. I will not be bringing Magnus on account of him being unpainted.

Since Mortarion looks like a bundle of trouble, I figure that going pure TS will probably not cut it. So I will ally. Either Daemons or CSM.

The main TS force will probably be a battalion with Ahriman/DP/termi sorc, 3 units of MSU rubrics in troop for objective holding and a 10x Scarab to deepstrike and get the buff treatment. Maybe a Defiler centerpiece.

The rest of the models I have for TS (Predators/Vindi/LR/rhinos) are not very appealing to me. Hence the support:

I do have a solid heavy support array of models from CSM (6 obliterators, autocannon havocs, 5-6 plasma gun chosen/havocs) that I could use. In such a case, how would you field them? Iron Warriors for ignore cover and Alpha legion for extra survivability strike me as the best bets. But then what would the accompanying HQ look like?

Other option is Tzeentch daemons. I have 15-20 pinks, 20 brimstones, 20ish blues, 2 burning chariots with detachable exalted flamers, foot herald, disc herald, blue scribes, DP.

Which option would you go for?

Pure TS would probably do great against mortarion. Bring a souped-up termie sorc with the +1 cast WL trait and have him cast your Death Hex the turn you want to take morty out. Then just have something VOTLW at him (Oblits would be best, but I would probably use 10 man SOT squad since I generally run pure Tsons), follow up with a few lascannons and he should be toast.

Just wait for a turn where he doesn't have the -1 to hit buff on him (with how universal our denies are and him having no psychic bonus that should not be hard) and drop the hammer on him.

YOU MONUMENTAL HOBNOB! I did it and it worked PERFECTLY! BAM! Mortarion turn 1 dead before he got to play! Deepstriked 10 rubrics, 10 scarabs and termi sorcerer warlord. Got cabalistic focus, +4 to cast on death hex! There goes his invul save. Got prescience on the scarabs and VotlW on both the rubrics and the scarabs! Scarabs did 9 wounds on him, rubrics did 4, flickering flame defiler did an extra 5! Only one lascannon got through, but with Gaze of fate reroll it did 6 wounds which disgustingly resilient had to save individually! Last wound taken by a predator autocannon (also amazing how having flat 3 damage changes the game with the preds!). And I still had enough dakka left to bring the blight drone down to 3 wounds. I should have gone for the plagueburst crawler instead. Thing is disgusting.

On his turn he went all or nothing, overcharged all his plasma guns, did not burn a single guy and did kill 6 terminators through glamour of tzeentch and weaver of fate. But after my second turn he wasn't left with much else.

Oh I did peril with the DP on Gaze of fate (guess why I needed the reroll for), with Ahriman on prescience and with the exalted sorcerer on temporal manipulation that was supposed to heal Ahriman. All in turn one.

I have to say that the scarab drop when super buffed deals stupid amounts of damage. Prescience, sorcerer aura, Votlw and nobody is safe. I will try them some more.

Lol it sounds like you made him fall flat. Good for you!

Hope you didn't VotLW your Scarabs and your Rubrics in the same phase though. Can only use the same stratagem once in each phase.

How have people found the tzaangors? I have a ton of skyfires and was shocked at how cheap they are per model in 40k

 luke1705 wrote:
How have people found the tzaangors? I have a ton of skyfires and was shocked at how cheap they are per model in 40k

They are so cheap because they are no where near as powerful as they are in aos..they get auto wounds and lots of hits but people get to use their save rolls, and their str isnt that high they are also squishy and easily shot off the table that said they are still decent for putting hurt on infantry units and harassing

With the right buffs Skyfires can do work. They are cheap for what you get but do need protecting and dont expect them to be downing a primarch anytime soon.
A max squad at 153pts is lovely though.
I'm planning to run 2 units and a tzaangor shaman. Should get some work done.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Hope you didn't VotLW your Scarabs and your Rubrics in the same phase though. Can only use the same stratagem once in each phase.

I certainly did :( I will let my opponent know. This edition is still new to me.

In retrospect, it was only one wound roll on a 4 from the rubrics. Still I should be more careful. Thanks for letting me know.

 luke1705 wrote:
How have people found the tzaangors? I have a ton of skyfires and was shocked at how cheap they are per model in 40k

My list has unit of 9 supported by Ahriman on Disc and a Shaman. Once you get +2 to hit on them they're pretty solid, volume will bring things down. I think the biggest lesson I've learned is to not underestimate their impact in close combat - if you've got the buff ball rolling on them (prescience, shaman, maybe flickering fire or VoTLW) they generate 28 S4 attacks in close combat that hit on 2s, re-rolling 1s, and possibly +1 to wound. My first few games I strictly used them to shoot and they did well but once I got a little more aggressive with them I felt like they really started to shine in my army.

So, one thousand sons army archetype I have not tried as yet is summoned daemons, rather than allied daemons brought in. At this point, my little tzeentch daemon allied detachment has ballooned to Changeling, Fateskimmer/Changecaster magnetized, Exalted Flamer, 6x Flamers, 3x Screamers, 15x pinks 10x blues 10x brims, and I'm considering whether I would be better suited doing what I currently do now (bringing them as an allied battalion) or by bringing a smaller block of reinforcement points so that I can summon what I want.

I find that in most of my games, a couple of my daemon elements are real standouts, while the rest mostly just sit around while my workhorse units of rubrics and psykers carry the game. Sometimes the horror screen is really handy, but then it dies and the buff characters sit around awkwardly casting Gaze of Fate and trying to smack characters. Sometimes the deep strike flamers are super clutch, but my opponent is playing a gunline and the horror screen just kind of sits around doing nothing.

So, summoning pluses:

+I could spend a block of, say, 250 points, and summon anything I had in my collection to the board as support. if I need fast assault? Summon screamers or a fateskimmer. If I need a buff? Summon changeling. If I need a screen? Summon pinks. This would save me from the situation I have now of spending 600 points and having only about half of it doing anything terribly useful.

+I generally bring a bunch of characters anyway and at least one is usually babysitting a gunline, so its not like having a character trying to summon is particularly painful. Unless Im reading the rule wrong, I can also deep strike and summon, increasing flexibility.

+Makes my army even more elite for the +1 to go first roll, which psychic focused armies really really want.

The drawbacks

-not on the board immediately. This is the biggie. If I lose first turn, I have 250-300 points sitting around NOT buffing my daemon units defenses, or screening my shooters.

-limited threat projection compared to deep striking the daemons. 12" from a character who didn't move and 9" from enemies is pretty restrictive.

-Semi-random. I say semi because the only way it could actually fail is if i roll a straight 3 on the 3d6, as I have perfectly useful PL4 units in 3 flamers. But still it could limit my choices. Also, can hurt my characters, that's not great.

-doesnt give me CPs. Less of a big deal than it would be as my demon battalion eally only gives me 2cp, since I always spend 1 on deep strike at the beginning of the game mostly.

-No daemon detachment = no daemon stratagems. this one is pretty rough, since the "can I just have a little of the warp" "you can't it's far too perilous" stratagem and the locus of conjuration are both amazing for thousand sons.

the_scotsman wrote:

+I could spend a block of, say, 250 points, and summon anything I had in my collection to the board as support. if I need fast assault? Summon screamers or a fateskimmer. If I need a buff? Summon changeling. If I need a screen? Summon pinks. This would save me from the situation I have now of spending 600 points and having only about half of it doing anything terribly useful.

+I generally bring a bunch of characters anyway and at least one is usually babysitting a gunline, so its not like having a character trying to summon is particularly painful. Unless Im reading the rule wrong, I can also deep strike and summon, increasing flexibility.

A character can indeed deepstrike and then summon, but not in the same turn. Regards

pismakron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

+I could spend a block of, say, 250 points, and summon anything I had in my collection to the board as support. if I need fast assault? Summon screamers or a fateskimmer. If I need a buff? Summon changeling. If I need a screen? Summon pinks. This would save me from the situation I have now of spending 600 points and having only about half of it doing anything terribly useful.

+I generally bring a bunch of characters anyway and at least one is usually babysitting a gunline, so its not like having a character trying to summon is particularly painful. Unless Im reading the rule wrong, I can also deep strike and summon, increasing flexibility.

A character can indeed deepstrike and then summon, but not in the same turn. Regards

OK, I see where that has been FAQed now.

So, here's a possible look at a summoning list:

Battalion Detachment Thousand Sons

Ahriman on Disc
Exalt on Disc w/plasma pistol
Terminator Sorc w/familiar, staff and inferno combi

29x Tzaangors w/brayhorn and blades
10x rubrics soulreaper
10x rubrics soulreaper

Rhino 2x combi bolters
Rhino 2x combi bolters

Defiler twin las+scourge

Double Butcher Cannon Hellforged Contemptor

5x SoTs with Soulreaper and Hellfyre

190 reserve points

190 gives me two good summons, at 100 points (Changeling, 10x Pinks 10x Brims, 3x Screamers, Fluxmaster) and at 90 points (3x Flamers, Exalted Flamer, 10x pinks with Banner and Instrument, Changecaster with Staff). I might want a couple more characters, but either Ahriman or the Exalt is going to always be OK with hanging back and summoning, because I'm goign to want both of them trying their hardest to stay in reroll 1s to hit range of as much of my army as I can manage.A possible turn 1 against a shooting-based enemy might be Ahriman jumping up to aura the Tzaangors as they drop in and warptime, Exalt hanging back with the Defiler and Butchernaut plus any rubrics who can hop out to shoot at 24" and summoning on either changeling to puppyguard the Defiler and cast Flickering Flames or an Exalted Flamer to add to my anti tank shooting if I'm confident the Tzaangors can dogpile into most of their downrange shooting.

Biggest downside of the list is the tight 6CP, which in a lot of games I'll easily burn 2/3 of turn 1 to drop the tzaangors, Cycle and Votlw. I'm much less CP-tight in the vs melee matchup because the tzaangors are probably just acting as a screen and dying when alpha zerkers/genestealers/death company/whatever charge and beat their faces in turn 1, then I can fool around with stuff like making the Defiler go nuts and more turns of VOTLW with the rubrics.

Did a game today, deffy is definitely a monster when boosted by spelled. I made some bad rookie mistakes but it still killed a contemptor (should have been in one round of shooting but I thought it wounded on 3's with battle cannon when it was actually 2's, so my bad ) and killed a flyer (granted it was already wounded by then) with out taking any wounds. And the forgefiend was awesome as backup for him, at one point down to 2 wounds ended game with 7.

How do we deal with sniper scouts in cover? I know they don't do much damage but 15 of them can kill a changecaster or sorcerer pretty easily. Just use rubrics to fire back?

Azuza001 wrote:
Did a game today, deffy is definitely a monster when boosted by spelled. I made some bad rookie mistakes but it still killed a contemptor (should have been in one round of shooting but I thought it wounded on 3's with battle cannon when it was actually 2's, so my bad ) and killed a flyer (granted it was already wounded by then) with out taking any wounds. And the forgefiend was awesome as backup for him, at one point down to 2 wounds ended game with 7.

How do we deal with sniper scouts in cover? I know they don't do much damage but 15 of them can kill a changecaster or sorcerer pretty easily. Just use rubrics to fire back?

Just shoot them? I mean a squad of ten should deal about 2 unsaved wounds per turn to a basic sorceror, counting the mortals. And with the cloaks and rifles they aint cheap. Our basic dakka gets them down from their fancy 2+ cover save down to 4+, so we can kill them fairly easily.

I just wasn't sure if straight up shoot them with rubrics was the answer or if there was something I was overlooking as a better answer to them. I had a feeling 5 rubrics would probably be the answer.

1) scotsman, I am not a big fan of the summoning strategy. For one thing I think that a non-move from your summoner is a considerable restriction. You generally want your characters to be within 6" of something for the reroll-buff, so requiring them not to move could be a nuisance in some situations. Secondly, I think the setup is less flexible than it looks. Would there ever be a situation, where you would want the herald or changeling without Daemon troops? Or flamers without a herald? Why don't you just take a cheap herald, some pinkies and some reserve points in a patrol detachment. Then you can summon more horrors, the changeling, or simply use the points for splitting on the pinkies?

2) Scouts can be a real nuisance if they are deployed forward and kept cheap. They will push deepstriking scarabs out of rapid-fire range from his important stuff, they will act as a roadblock for deepstriking Tzaangors, and they can tie up a defiler for two turns or a las-predator until game-end. If your opponent equips his scouts with sniper-rifles and tries to keep them out of harm's way, then he is essentially throwing away a lot of points. You can shoot them of course, but simply ignoring them is equally effective. Their shooting is pretty anemic. I don't think I have ever seen a game where snipers made their points back.

I've gotta admit I've been swayed on the defiler idea here (at least for tsons). I plan to start running two of them.

Has anyone else been using gors as basic troop units, or do most stick to cultists? I'm currently running a mix but think I might prefer going full gor, as toughness 4, extra LD, and the 5+ invulnerable save all seem to make them tougher than cultists even for basic troop duty. A bit more expensive as well though.

I load up the Gor bomb but my other 2 troops 10 man chaff cultists.

I am not sure about 30 tzaangors blob bomb...
In my list i put 20 rubrics in DS to save them from alpha strike. If i want to put 30 tzaangors it will cost me another 2CP.

Tzaangors will arrive 9' away and need either 8' charge or warptime - sorcerrer within 9'.
For 2CP Space Marines and Eldar army can shoot and potentially kill ~10 tzaangors. Then charge - overwatch another ~5 died. So average we loose 10-15 tzaangors even before we charged.

Also very often important units are wrapped by meatshield.

So i personally think that those tzaangors bomb might work something but not enough times to be competitive.