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I don't use mine first turn most of the time, I use an AL cultist bomb to clear screens then bring in the Tzaangor bomb along with a Terminator Sorcerer with Familiar and WL to cast Warptime on a 4+. I also usually come in at 12.1" away, doesn't protect me from Eldar shooting but keeps me safe from the marine variants and with WT I'm at 6.1", I'm pretty confident on that charge needing a 5 on 2D6. If you're counting on the Tzaangor bomb to go first and solve your woes you're probably in a rough spot. I use mine to come in exploit a gap. I also don't run pure TSons either, I run a full blown Alpha Legion, Nurgle Demon, Thousand Sons soup list.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
I don't use mine first turn most of the time, I use an AL cultist bomb to clear screens then bring in the Tzaangor bomb along with a Terminator Sorcerer with Familiar and WL to cast Warptime on a 4+. I also usually come in at 12.1" away, doesn't protect me from Eldar shooting but keeps me safe from the marine variants and with WT I'm at 6.1", I'm pretty confident on that charge needing a 5 on 2D6. If you're counting on the Tzaangor bomb to go first and solve your woes you're probably in a rough spot. I use mine to come in exploit a gap. I also don't run pure TSons either, I run a full blown Alpha Legion, Nurgle Demon, Thousand Sons soup list.

I don't get that. Do you deepstrike the cultists, or do you use the forward operatives stratagem? Why not just deepstrike the Tzaangors in the same turn as the cultists? And why do you deepstrike at 12.1" ? Is it to avoid the auspex scan?

I use tide of traitors actually, deploy them effectively in my back corner way behind all my screens then pop tide in my first movement phase so I can be in rapid fire then stack the various buffs that make that bomb work. The reason I don't deepstrike the Tzaangors in on the same turn is because I want to clear the screen which the cultists perform admirably at - if they went down at the same time they'd get blocked by the screen regardless of psychic powers.

As to why the 12.1" yeah its avoid auspex (assuming I'm playing an army with access to it, if not then I just pop in at 9" at normal).

I'm trying to make as much TS pure list as possible. Chaos soup is cool but here is i think we're talking about TS, right?

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
As to why the 12.1" yeah its avoid auspex (assuming I'm playing an army with access to it, if not then I just pop in at 9" at normal).

Just a fair warning, if you fail warptime you won't be able to even attempt a charge if your over 12" away. This is because you have to be within 12" to even declare the charge. Doesn't matter if you can charge 24" with a roll of a double 1 or not. Yes this also means bloodletters with 3d6 need to be within 12" and can't try a long bomb 18" on you.

pismakron wrote:
1) scotsman, I am not a big fan of the summoning strategy. For one thing I think that a non-move from your summoner is a considerable restriction. You generally want your characters to be within 6" of something for the reroll-buff, so requiring them not to move could be a nuisance in some situations. Secondly, I think the setup is less flexible than it looks. Would there ever be a situation, where you would want the herald or changeling without Daemon troops? Or flamers without a herald? Why don't you just take a cheap herald, some pinkies and some reserve points in a patrol detachment. Then you can summon more horrors, the changeling, or simply use the points for splitting on the pinkies?

2) Scouts can be a real nuisance if they are deployed forward and kept cheap. They will push deepstriking scarabs out of rapid-fire range from his important stuff, they will act as a roadblock for deepstriking Tzaangors, and they can tie up a defiler for two turns or a las-predator until game-end. If your opponent equips his scouts with sniper-rifles and tries to keep them out of harm's way, then he is essentially throwing away a lot of points. You can shoot them of course, but simply ignoring them is equally effective. Their shooting is pretty anemic. I don't think I have ever seen a game where snipers made their points back.

That would be true except my army runs off of a changecaster with Flickering flames and gaze of fate. Without it the defiler isn't as effective. And I have lost the changecaster to a 5 man sniper team before, it's only protection is with the charecter rules.

Maybe I will remove it and just use a deamon prince as my caster. Then I don't give a crap about the snipers.

ArtyomTrityak wrote:I'm trying to make as much TS pure list as possible. Chaos soup is cool but here is i think we're talking about TS, right?

For sure, I was mostly just trying to offer some perspective in how my units have functioned. Certainly the context is going to change but some elements are consistent.

Azoqu wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
As to why the 12.1" yeah its avoid auspex (assuming I'm playing an army with access to it, if not then I just pop in at 9" at normal).

Just a fair warning, if you fail warptime you won't be able to even attempt a charge if your over 12" away. This is because you have to be within 12" to even declare the charge. Doesn't matter if you can charge 24" with a roll of a double 1 or not. Yes this also means bloodletters with 3d6 need to be within 12" and can't try a long bomb 18" on you.

For sure - that's why I stack the warlord trait and the familiar in their sorcerer and make sure I have that 1 CP left for the re-roll. You can never guarantee it but I do my best to remove almost all chance.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

For sure, I was mostly just trying to offer some perspective in how my units have functioned. Certainly the context is going to change but some elements are consistent.

i personally think that TS + Alpha legion has synergy. TS have good anti-infantry: rubrics and tzaangors, alpha legion can give -1 to hit predators and obliterators.

the_scotsman wrote:
So, one thousand sons army archetype I have not tried as yet is summoned daemons, rather than allied daemons brought in. At this point, my little tzeentch daemon allied detachment has ballooned to Changeling, Fateskimmer/Changecaster magnetized, Exalted Flamer, 6x Flamers, 3x Screamers, 15x pinks 10x blues 10x brims, and I'm considering whether I would be better suited doing what I currently do now (bringing them as an allied battalion) or by bringing a smaller block of reinforcement points so that I can summon what I want.

I find that in most of my games, a couple of my daemon elements are real standouts, while the rest mostly just sit around while my workhorse units of rubrics and psykers carry the game. Sometimes the horror screen is really handy, but then it dies and the buff characters sit around awkwardly casting Gaze of Fate and trying to smack characters. Sometimes the deep strike flamers are super clutch, but my opponent is playing a gun line and the horror screen just kind of sits around doing nothing.

+I could spend a block of, say, 250 points, and summon anything I had in my collection to the board as support. if I need fast assault? Summon screamers or a fateskimmer. If I need a buff? Summon changeling. If I need a screen? Summon pinks. This would save me from the situation I have now of spending 600 points and having only about half of it doing anything terribly useful. .

This is a route I eventually want to try. Great list of pros and cons, well thought out. Summon what you need and more of them rather than having it all on the board just in case. That many points in reserve is ballsy man and I salute you, that will take some aggressive casting and there might be some value doing so on a fast disc so you summon where you need it. Using the summoning strat can allow you to maximize you reserve points every round and also have some "Spawn Credit" ready just in case... This is kinda how I wanted to test it but I do not have the demon models yet. I want to anchor with Changeling and load up on screamers, I just love the models, as well as flamers and an exalted. The horrors will come eventually (haha poetic) though i can see your strategic reasoning and you have weighed out the disadvantages so... you will need to summon you ass off but go for it!! Why not? And please let us know as I think it can be effective, deceiving and a lot of fun!!

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I am not sure about 30 tzaangors blob bomb...
In my list i put 20 rubrics in DS to save them from alpha strike. If i want to put 30 tzaangors it will cost me another 2CP.

Tzaangors will arrive 9' away and need either 8' charge or warptime - sorcerrer within 9'.
For 2CP Space Marines and Eldar army can shoot and potentially kill ~10 tzaangors. Then charge - overwatch another ~5 died. So average we loose 10-15 tzaangors even before we charged.

Also very often important units are wrapped by meatshield.

So i personally think that those tzaangors bomb might work something but not enough times to be competitive.

Vs. the right opponent, a well executed Tzaangor-bomb can pretty much win you the game on the turn they arrive;

2x61 attacks (Cycle of Slaughter), hitting on 2+ (Shaman), rerolling 1's (DP/Exalted nearby, you want Warptime anyway), either with S4/AP2 or S5/AP1 (Mutalith) and with +1 to wound (VotLW).
There's nothing they can't kill. They'd do 29,6 wounds to a Baneblade after saves!

As you pointed out however, there are ways for armies to protect themselves from this. And lucky too I'd say, otherwise there would be no end to the moaning about Thousand Sons Tzaangors.

How are people geting their shaman close enough to the bomb to be useful without it dying

 MinscS2 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I am not sure about 30 tzaangors blob bomb...
In my list i put 20 rubrics in DS to save them from alpha strike. If i want to put 30 tzaangors it will cost me another 2CP.

Tzaangors will arrive 9' away and need either 8' charge or warptime - sorcerrer within 9'.
For 2CP Space Marines and Eldar army can shoot and potentially kill ~10 tzaangors. Then charge - overwatch another ~5 died. So average we loose 10-15 tzaangors even before we charged.

Also very often important units are wrapped by meatshield.

So i personally think that those tzaangors bomb might work something but not enough times to be competitive.

Vs. the right opponent, a well executed Tzaangor-bomb can pretty much win you the game on the turn they arrive;

2x61 attacks (Cycle of Slaughter), hitting on 2+ (Shaman), rerolling 1's (DP/Exalted nearby, you want Warptime anyway), either with S4/AP2 or S5/AP1 (Mutalith) and with +1 to wound (VotLW).
There's nothing they can't kill. They'd do 29,6 wounds to a Baneblade after saves!

As you pointed out however, there are ways for armies to protect themselves from this. And lucky too I'd say, otherwise there would be no end to the moaning about Thousand Sons Tzaangors.

So for Tzaangor bomb you need:
1. +2CP deepstrike
2. +2CP Cycle of Slaughter
3. +1CP VotLW
4. Shaman nearby
5. DP nearby

So sacrificing 5CP and exposing DP + Shaman for 30 man tzaangor bomb which can be destroyed by 2CP shooting on deepstrike, failed warptime or charge.
It looks like putting all eggs into single basket. And this basket does not seem be too nasty.

Let's imagine you do all thing and kill.. something, for example wave serpent. Next turn this blob of tzaangors is dead.
So you kill something which your opponent exposed and not protect by meatshield, spend 5CP, exposed shaman and DP.

For example blob of 20 necron warriors will around 20 tzaangors, 20 eldar guardinans wreck them too, 3 agressors will just delete them...

I am not sure. I would be happy to hear your feedback after couple of games.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
So sacrificing 5CP and exposing DP + Shaman for 30 man tzaangor bomb which can be destroyed by 2CP shooting on deepstrike, failed warptime or charge.
It looks like putting all eggs into single basket. And this basket does not seem be too nasty.

4 CP, not 5. Deepstrike is 1, not 2.
Wouldn't exactly call it "sacrifice" either since you're spending them on something useful.

Not all armies have anti-deepstrike, hence why I said against the right opponent.
Warptime might fail, and so might the charge, but the chance of failing both warptime and the charge are quite small.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Let's imagine you do all thing and kill.. something, for example wave serpent. Next turn this blob of tzaangors is dead.
So you kill something which your opponent exposed and not protect by meatshield, spend 5CP, exposed shaman and DP.

I said a "well executed" tzaangor bomb. If you only killed a wave serpent you failed in your execution, hard.
There's also no reason why the Shaman/DP need to be exposed, where's the rest of your army?

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
For example blob of 20 necron warriors will around 20 tzaangors, 20 eldar guardinans wreck them too, 3 agressors will just delete them...

20 necron warriors/guardians kill on average 2 Tzaangors when overwatching. Hardly what I'd call "wreck them".
A full squad of Aggressors would indeed hurt alot more, but now you're cherrypicking. Pick your target carefully, don't just charge that 10 man flamer-squad "because you can".

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I am not sure about 30 tzaangors blob bomb...
In my list i put 20 rubrics in DS to save them from alpha strike. If i want to put 30 tzaangors it will cost me another 2CP.

Tzaangors will arrive 9' away and need either 8' charge or warptime - sorcerrer within 9'.
For 2CP Space Marines and Eldar army can shoot and potentially kill ~10 tzaangors. Then charge - overwatch another ~5 died. So average we loose 10-15 tzaangors even before we charged.

Also very often important units are wrapped by meatshield.

So i personally think that those tzaangors bomb might work something but not enough times to be competitive.

Vs. the right opponent, a well executed Tzaangor-bomb can pretty much win you the game on the turn they arrive;

2x61 attacks (Cycle of Slaughter), hitting on 2+ (Shaman), rerolling 1's (DP/Exalted nearby, you want Warptime anyway), either with S4/AP2 or S5/AP1 (Mutalith) and with +1 to wound (VotLW).
There's nothing they can't kill. They'd do 29,6 wounds to a Baneblade after saves!

As you pointed out however, there are ways for armies to protect themselves from this. And lucky too I'd say, otherwise there would be no end to the moaning about Thousand Sons Tzaangors.

So for Tzaangor bomb you need:
1. +2CP deepstrike
2. +2CP Cycle of Slaughter
3. +1CP VotLW
4. Shaman nearby
5. DP nearby

So sacrificing 5CP and exposing DP + Shaman for 30 man tzaangor bomb which can be destroyed by 2CP shooting on deepstrike, failed warptime or charge.
It looks like putting all eggs into single basket. And this basket does not seem be too nasty.

Let's imagine you do all thing and kill.. something, for example wave serpent. Next turn this blob of tzaangors is dead.
So you kill something which your opponent exposed and not protect by meatshield, spend 5CP, exposed shaman and DP.

For example blob of 20 necron warriors will around 20 tzaangors, 20 eldar guardinans wreck them too, 3 agressors will just delete them...

I am not sure. I would be happy to hear your feedback after couple of games.

For the tzaangor bomb to work you need:

1) 30 tzaangors + bray horn
2) 1 CP for deepstrike
3) Sorcerer in terminator armour + familiar

You don't need anything else. And if you hold back gaze of fate and the CP-reroll, then warptime will almost certainly go off.

You can buff the tzaangor-bomb in many other ways, but those are all a bit situational, because they depend on the 12+D6 " movement of our fast characters. The tzaangor bomb is definitely a candidate for VOTLW, but so is whatever rubric or scarab blob you will probably shoot with in the same turn.

Luckily we can VotLW our Rubrics/SOT's in the shooting phase and then VotLW our Tzaangors in the fight phase.

Are rubrics troops in the CSM book?

I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.

TS Battalion
Ahriman on disc
DP, wings, talons
Termi Sorc

3 units of 10 cultists

CSM battalion (alpha legion?)
Warpsmith/ DP
Sorcerer/chaos lord

5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol

Couple of predators

This way we get all the nice better sorcerers and DP's from TS codex, we get the MSU soulfire cannons on the rubrics. Alpha legion the rubrics onto objectives in cover and let the opponent come and claim them if they feel lucky. give all the buffs on the characters and all the non-smite MW spells on the aspiring sorcerers. Doesn't matter if it's on a 7 or a 9, it's a free cast. You were not going to cast smite with your Aspiring anyways, were you?

If you use predators, then warpsmith/lord is a nice combo to keep them healthy and firing. Otherwise opt for only one HQ tax on the rubrics and get a nice alpha strike unit like 10-man scarabs for you to buff and enjoy.




Test concept @ 2000 pts:

TS battalion:

Ahriman on disc [Weaver of fates, Prescience, Glamour of tzeentch]
RP, Wings, claws, dark matter crystal [Flickering flames, gaze of fate]
Termi sorc, familiar, Helm of the third eye, warlord, High Magister [Death hex, warptime]

3 x 10 cultists

10 x Scarab Occult, 2 x hellyfire, 2 x soulfire cannons

CSM battalion - Alpha legion

Chaos lord, double plasma pistol
Warpsmith

5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol [Tzeentch's firestorm]
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol [Doombolt]
5 x rubrics, soulfire cannon, plasma pistol [Insert other MW ability]

Defiler, lascannons, scourge
Predator, autocannon / lascannons

This would go pretty much close to 2000. 7 CP. Lord and warpsmith go with the tanks for reroll aura and healing them. Bubble wrap the tanks with the cultists. Alpha legion + TS stratagem the rubrics (if they share the faction keyword which I think they do) onto midfield and forward objectives.

First turn deepstrike the terminators, mega buff them (prescience, weaver of fates, glamour). Use cabalistic focus on either death hex or warptime for a +4 bonus (use your gaze reroll if you need to) and the unit can delete the target you want off the table and proceed to charge and lock a big badass enemy shooter. Next turn use the dark matter crystal to redeploy them and repeat.

Alternatively we could change the lord + warpsmith + tanks into a second DP and oblits.

Great summary and simplification Pisma. Go with that base, add as other resources as needed.

howdoIdeletethis

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Are rubrics troops in the CSM book?

I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.

To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.

Also...

If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?

In the same way that the TS DP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...

 Artosey wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Are rubrics troops in the CSM book?

I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.

To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.

Also...

If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?

In the same way that the TS DP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...

So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Artosey wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Are rubrics troops in the CSM book?

I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.

To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.

Also...

If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?

In the same way that the TS DP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...

So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.

The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.

Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.

Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.

Azuza001 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Artosey wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Are rubrics troops in the CSM book?

I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.

To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.

Also...

If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?

In the same way that the TS DP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...

So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.

The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.

Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.

Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.

But you can take a cheap lord instead to give reroll aura to the tanks? Could be a thing I guess.

I want to discuss topic Occults vs Rubrics. If opponent has some multi-damage weapons Rubrics are better. For single damage weapons - Occults - same firepower, no need to spend CP for deepstrike, better save.

Your thoughts?

10 SOT's with 2 Soulreapers - 428 pts
Pro's:

- Powerswords so they can actually kill stuff in melee.
- Can deepstrike on their own.
- Sorcerer has a chance of surviving a PotW.
- 2+/5++ save instead of 3+/5++.
- Smaller footprint, so easier to give them cover/hide them.
- +1 Ld.
(- Can buy Helfyre Missile Racks, giving the army some much needed AT.)

20 Rubrics with 2 Soulreapers - 433 pts
Pro's:

- Troops
- Less susceptible to multi-wound attacks.
- +2/+3 inferno bolter shots at long/rapid fire range (18 vs 16 / 35 vs 32)
- +1 M.
(- Can buy some overpriced Warpflamers.)

SOT's are imo better most of the time.
That said, I would never field both 1x10 SOT's and 1x20 Rubrics in the same list, as they both desperately want VotLW on the turn they deepstrike.

I'd say that this comparison shows that Rubric Marines are slightly overpriced. 20 of them should not cost more than 10 SOT's, yet they do. And the SOT's are (as most terminators) slightly overpriced already...

Has there been any clarification on if the sorceror in Scarab/Rubric squads benefits from All is Dust? I can see it either way, as it refers to Rubric Marines, which is the model's name, but the unit as a whole has that as a keyword.

The only issue i see with SOT - if opponent has multi-wound attacks like Tau for example. They are very dead very soon.

But generally i'm thinking running 10 SOT + 30 tzaangors. This case i can deep strike tzaangors for 1CP, not 2CP (because of Rubrics deep strike).

And i agree - we should bring either Rubrics or SOT, not both - they're too expensive and we can not buff them both.

If your going to do that why bother? You can just get an exalted sorcerer for the reroll. I am just not seeing a viable point if your sticking with Tzeentch. Now if your doing it to get some other god bonus's then there could be an argument, a Deamon Prince of Slaanesh with the Elixer is a very strong close combat beast vs ours. Of course ours has powers for days to cast so yeah.... still options are good. Or if your going maybe Alpha Legion detachment for 3 squads of 5 Rubrics with the cannons, 3+/5++ -1 to hit and all is dust in cover, good luck dealing with THAT.

I am not saying its not a viable tactic, I am just saying that I am not seeing any sort of extra synergy from it like Deamons can give Tsons.

Azuza001 wrote:

Spoiler:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Artosey wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Are rubrics troops in the CSM book?

I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.

To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.

Also...

If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?

In the same way that the TS DP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...

So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.

The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.

Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.

Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.

But you can take a cheap lord instead to give reroll aura to the tanks? Could be a thing I guess.

If your going to do that why bother? You can just get an exalted sorcerer for the reroll. I am just not seeing a viable point if your sticking with Tzeentch. Now if your doing it to get some other god bonus's then there could be an argument, a Deamon Prince of Slaanesh with the Elixer is a very strong close combat beast vs ours. Of course ours has powers for days to cast so yeah.... still options are good. Or if your going maybe Alpha Legion detachment for 3 squads of 5 Rubrics with the cannons, 3+/5++ -1 to hit and all is dust in cover, good luck dealing with THAT.

I am not saying its not a viable tactic, I am just saying that I am not seeing any sort of extra synergy from it like Deamons can give Tsons.

The whole purpose of this is to manage 1 soulfire cannon per 5 rubrics. I know we gain synergy from daemons. I kind of doubt is of vital importance to us. Sure exalted flamers is nice, but apart from that we don't gain much.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

Spoiler:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Artosey wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Are rubrics troops in the CSM book?

I really think we could benefit by getting our characters from a TS battalion with cultists as cheap tax, and getting our sons from a CSM battalion. This way we could keep the sons as MSU of 5 with a soulfire cannon each and go deepstrike them onto objectives. This would cost 120 pts per unit, 126 with a plasma pistol, so not exactly cheap, but it would be all but invincible for its points. With cover save and All is dust, good luck removing them unless you decide to spend stupid amounts of points on them. And even if you leave them alone, with the soulfire cannon and Tzeentch's firestorm/doombolt/infernal gateway on each aspiring would guarantee a ton of trouble. I really think this is how they are supposed to be played really.

To my knowledge (and happy to be proven wrong), they can only be elites.

Also...

If you take Rubrics from the CSM book, do they still get access to the TS spells or only 1W Smite?

In the same way that the TS DP differs to the CSM (&DG) one(s), are the CSM ones stuck in pre TS codex...

So sad :( I really want that cannon in 5 models. Maybe we'll get it in the faq. Let's see.

The down side is you lose their ability to cast anything but smite. The good is you get 5 men with the soulreaper cannon. It may be worth it. Take a warpsmith and 3 rubric squads from chaos, the rest from tsons, watch the world burn.

Also you lose the thousand sons keyword on the rubrics. I am pretty sure there was a faq that said you can't just use the legion keywords "Thousand sons" and be ok for using spells and stratagems on them from the real tsons codex. I don't know how much of a trade off this is but it is what it is.

Edit - Nevermind, the warpsmith can't repair vehicles not from his legion, so you can't repair any thousand son vehicles. I would rather be able to cast spells on them than repair with the smith.

But you can take a cheap lord instead to give reroll aura to the tanks? Could be a thing I guess.

If your going to do that why bother? You can just get an exalted sorcerer for the reroll. I am just not seeing a viable point if your sticking with Tzeentch. Now if your doing it to get some other god bonus's then there could be an argument, a Deamon Prince of Slaanesh with the Elixer is a very strong close combat beast vs ours. Of course ours has powers for days to cast so yeah.... still options are good. Or if your going maybe Alpha Legion detachment for 3 squads of 5 Rubrics with the cannons, 3+/5++ -1 to hit and all is dust in cover, good luck dealing with THAT.

I am not saying its not a viable tactic, I am just saying that I am not seeing any sort of extra synergy from it like Deamons can give Tsons.

The whole purpose of this is to manage 1 soulfire cannon per 5 rubrics. I know we gain synergy from daemons. I kind of doubt is of vital importance to us. Sure exalted flamers is nice, but apart from that we don't gain much.

Oh I understand that, and I am with you. If we can find some sort of tactic that makes this a great option, even an unexpected option, then I could see trying it. The best I see is the idea of running the Rubrics from a different legion setup, so your losing the ability to count the aspiring sorcerers for the Spell Boost Startagem and the ability to give the sorcerers different spells (again, small loss but could matter in some instances. I use my Asp's as backup spell casters to vital spells but normally they just smite anyways if I bother casting at all) to get access to some of the more tactical friendly traits like Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors or Black Legion. Personally I really like the idea of Rubric Marines with -2 AP weapons and no cover saves allowed.

The real question becomes what HQ do we take that can really help make this work. If it doesn't do something our hq's already can do I don't like the idea of taking it, it seems like a 'tax' at that point. That leaves apostles, warpsmiths (which I think would be a waste), sorcerers on bikes, things like that. There are options here.

Honestly a jump Lord with a relic weapon is pretty potent and cheap.

OR a slaanesh lord on steed has a large amount of attacks and can hit pretty hard with a relic weapon.