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 Gargantuan wrote:

Scions can't double tap when dropping in. Their guns have 18 inch range and they have to drop in more than 9 inches from enemies.

Why would you take a regular rifle when you can have 7 pts plazma on everyone? This command squad spam is dead killy. They cost less than a loota and can alpha-strike + are 4 times killier. And somewhat more durable cause of 4+ armor. Scions are hot this edition.

Wow I just noticed the Painboy is an elite.

Come to think of it a lot of what used to be HQs are elites now.....

So THAT'S why they (probably) allow more elites in the Battalion detachment.


I might pick up a second Start Collecting Orks set based on all the changes.

 koooaei wrote:
Why would you take a regular rifle when you can have 7 pts plazma on everyone? This command squad spam is dead killy. They cost less than a loota and can alpha-strike + are 4 times killier. And somewhat more durable cause of 4+ armor. Scions are hot this edition.

Oh, absolutely, and as far as I can tell, nobody is arguing that they aren't. Just wanted to clarify something, as several people I've run into (who PLAY guard) had that misconception about rapid firing from deep strike. Scions are absolutely good, but they aren't quite that broken.

Scion command squads are absolutely broken in a sense of killiness-per-point. But they're quite squishy. Drop in, overcharge plasma and kill stuff that's worth way more points than they cost. Than die. They're the new suicide drop. And very point-efficient one.

Anywayz, let's go back to orks. I'm thinking of running multiple warbosses cause i like to spread the front and not just move in a massive blob that's easy to maneuvre around. I like to be the one maneuvring around, actually. Bosses are still quite killy and cost reasonable points. Their durability is not amazing but fine.
On the other hanв if you're running shootaboy blobs, you really want to deepstrike them with a wierdboy. He's just 62 pts and shootas are slow and you really need this deepstrike to help out your faster front of trukks, wagons and stormboyz.

So, currently i think i'll try to separate my forces. Mech stuff with Ghaz can go anywhere but the second part - that also needs a warboss - must be held tight to not suffer massive morale losses. Will obviously require a larger game.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Watching Frontline's Tuesday battle on twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

Reece just made a statement that has never before been uttered in English:

"The killa-kans just killed both Helldrakes."

Still think orks are bad?

You realise that FLG are now basically GW's unpaid PR department, right? They are also the same people that playtested the new edition and decided three guard mortars should be cheaper than one lobba and that a stompa was worth nearly two knights.

Quite apart from that, anecdotes mean very little. I regularly won games with the 3rd edition ork codex. Does that mean that orks were a strong army before the 4th edition codex arrived? 40k has always had a huge element of chance and a bit of skill involved as well as simply picking the strongest list. Until we've got data from tournaments, I'm going to lean towards trusting math-hammer over battle reports.

Regardless, this shouldn't be a thread about whether orks are good or bad. This should be a thread about how to make orks as effective as they can be.

So, how to get the best out of bubblechukkas?

Effectively, your opponent only gets to place one of the dice. You choose one, he chooses one, then you choose the third and he has to place the fourth in the only remaining option.

If you're shooting against 1-wound infantry, I think your initial move should be to put the worst die in damage or the best die in shots, depending on which stands out as most exceptional (so if you have 6, 4, 3, 3 place the 6, while if you have 5, 5, 4, 1, place the 1). Against big targets, I guess worst die in S and best in shots or damage? I'm not sure there is an optimal solution. Maybe just always put the best die in shots and then damage (if it's multi-wound), AP (if the save is good) then S? This is complicated enough that it might need proper computer simulation.

It's not entirely clear how to play the bubble-chukka.

We placed the dice in the order in which it was written, so, the first die goes to str, second to ap, third to damage and fourth to the number of shots. Maybe we played it wrong but the wording is unclear.

 koooaei wrote:
It's not entirely clear how to play the bubble-chukka.

We placed the dice in the order in which it was written, so, the first die goes to str, second to ap, third to damage and fourth to the number of shots. Maybe we played it wrong but the wording is unclear.

You did, thecontrolling player gets to pick where the first dice goes, then your opponent gets to pick where a different one goes, then you again, and then the last goes on whats left. However that one choice can screw the whole gun up.

In this case, it's not that great. Cause the opponent can allocate a single low number to neuter the gun and make it's either str or number of shots too bad. I'd still take it if it was two times cheper. But as is, it's sad but it's for fun non-competitive games only. If you want to have more or less effective mek gunz, take kmk. If you want something to score the backline and still provide firepower, take a solo kannon or lobba. I'd probably go for kannon as lobbas are quite bad for points now. Kannons aren't great either but they at least cost a bit cheaper and can occasionally kill somehting a bit tougher or in cover.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

You realise that FLG are now basically GW's unpaid PR department, right? They are also the same people that playtested the new edition and decided three guard mortars should be cheaper than one lobba and that a stompa was worth nearly two knights.

Quite apart from that, anecdotes mean very little. I regularly won games with the 3rd edition ork codex. Does that mean that orks were a strong army before the 4th edition codex arrived? 40k has always had a huge element of chance and a bit of skill involved as well as simply picking the strongest list. Until we've got data from tournaments, I'm going to lean towards trusting math-hammer over battle reports.

Yeh i have the same thoughts. Not bashing on Reece, but in terms of adding to the discussion, i'd much prefer he take one point from this thread and write an in-depth response. Rather than what so far has more of been a 'Yeh Kanz are awesome!' level.

So, how to get the best out of bubblechukkas?

Effectively, your opponent only gets to place one of the dice. You choose one, he chooses one, then you choose the third and he has to place the fourth in the only remaining option.

You could do the math by creating an equation for the Wound outcome in excel; by assuming the role of both attacker and defender you just make the dice choice based upon what at the time you think is best. That way, dependent on the target you can work out the most optimal for wounding. But if im being honest, its going to be a lot of math and a lot of times where I imagine the difference is negligible, not to mention for a complete understanding, you'd want to know the state of the target at the time also. I doubt its worth doing the math, as there are far more variables than accountable and its still all dice dependent.

I think the best way is to think about what the opponent will want to pick. It is likely they will want to maintain their own save (as humans have a tendency to lean towards keeping fate in their own hands - re-rollable 2+'s for example. highly strong, but if you fail it you can lose a significant portion of your army.). But its tough. because putting a 1 in str is always going to make it hard for you to wound.
GAK! Im leaning towards;
Str > Hits > AP > D

Because of the order of rolls. Saves are last, so even if you put a 6 in D, it doesnt matter if you don't hit, wound and make it past the save. But on the same note, if you have a low Str your wound rolls are going to hurt.

EDIT: but in writing this, i mostly agree with Koooaei, regardless a single 1 in Str or Hits is really going to screw the gun over. And even with CP re-rolls, its probably best just to take the more reliable stuff.

I personally think scions will be part of a top competitve army in some form.

Anyway people should run the numbers on tankbustas with rokkit pistols. Even scions can't compete with that damage output.a 5 man squad w Rokkit pistols is slightly better than rokkits at toughness 4 or 8 with 3 wounds but massively stronger against toughness 3 or 7 with 3 or less. They are our most killy unit. I'd still take a unit of rokkit and rokkit pistols as rokkits seem better at range against straight t8 high wound vehicles. But rokkit pistols are brutal.

Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?

gungo wrote:


Anyway people should run the numbers on tankbustas with rokkit pistols. Even scions can't compete with that damage output.

Let's assume they shoot a rhino. A single scion deals 1.48 wounds (overcharging). A tankbusta deals 0.74 damage. A tankbusta also needs a transport and doesn't benefit from orders and is 1 pt more expensive. On the other hand, trukks are pretty good and tankbustas, being orks, can even chop something down in mellee. And aren't one-use cause of a trukk.


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 hordrak wrote:
Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?

There's no need for choppas any more cause powa stubbas are way superior vs anything with at least 5+ save. And don't cost much. I'll try out powa stabba nobz soon. I have great faith in them

 hordrak wrote:
Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?

My guess is that the power stabba is supposed to be the harpoon arm from the Nobz sprue.

Side note: Have we gotten a look at the ork commands yet? I'm thinking that if command powers are any good, they may help limit the spam as players will have to choose between spamming, and getting a boatload of command points to spend.

So it is my understanding that tankbustas and burnas are best used in a trukk, while the gitz almost certainly need a wagon?

I think it would be pretty cool to combine burnas and manz in the same transport as they both want to be up close and would be great against a variety of different units. I think each fills the void of the others weakness nicely. You could have 10 burnas and 5 manz in a wagon that also deals some hurting in combat itself. Or a smaller version with 6 burnas and 3 manz in a trukk with a wrecking ball.

 koooaei wrote:

gungo wrote:


Anyway people should run the numbers on tankbustas with rokkit pistols. Even scions can't compete with that damage output.

Let's assume they shoot a rhino. A single scion deals 1.48 wounds (overcharging). A tankbusta deals 0.74 damage. A tankbusta also needs a transport and doesn't benefit from orders and is 1 pt more expensive. On the other hand, trukks are pretty good and tankbustas, being orks, can even chop something down in mellee. And aren't one-use cause of a trukk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hordrak wrote:
Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?

There's no need for choppas any more cause powa stubbas are way superior vs anything with at least 5+ save. And don't cost much. I'll try out powa stabba nobz soon. I have great faith in them

kooniae rokkit pistols are double the shots that's 2x reroll to hit vs ur rhino, str7 ap-2 d3 per model. Those 10 shots w reroll to hit are better than 6x plasma shots in rapid fire range at 3+ to hit. You don't buy models singles you but units. Tankbustas aren't great in melee and if your including orders you include the cost of the squad which is really only preventing gets hot in overcharged plasma just like you include the cost of a transport or weridboy. It gets really convoluted at that point however a straight squad of rokkit pistol tankbustas w 2x bomb squigs still outgun a scion squad in rapid fire range (which scions are not in when they deepstrike) and overcharged (meaning they die in a 1).
5 tankbustas at 12in w 2x squigs does ~6.25 wounds to a rhino. 5 scions w 3 overcharged plasma 2 hotshot guns w reroll 1s order at rapidfire range does ~4 wounds. Double check my math I did it in my head.

Anybody missing the Looted wagons in the new list? Not sure how to field the three models I've built now...

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Anybody missing the Looted wagons in the new list? Not sure how to field the three models I've built now...

there was a post on Facebook that said we don't make the model so no rules use those conversions as count as battlewagons or FW vehicles. I'm sorry I don't recall where it's located.

This is only a stop gap book maybe rules might appear in our codex or chapter approved.

its amazing that GW has basically out and said its fine to use models for anything but their official listing 0.o

This opens the flood games to third party models

 davou wrote:
its amazing that GW has basically out and said its fine to use models for anything but their official listing 0.o

This opens the flood games to third party models

you always could use 3rd party models w gw rules just not in gw stores. 3rd party manufacturers can't specifically create models that gw makes on copyrighted material. Those flood gates have been open for years. Guard in general have a ton of options for cheaper 1/45 scale tanks.

I've been using spellcrow legs for years I order to make use of the extra arms and bodies and heads in ork Kits. Using the heads and arms to make my ork boys all unique. I picked up kromlech tankbustas and thier Maddoc so that each painboy and tankbusta isn't identical. Use FW trukk Kits so I have 4 unique trukks. I like my models to look similar but not be repetitive and the same. It's also more fun to paint.

Oh how I long for the days of 3rd edition looted rules.

gungo wrote:

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Anybody missing the Looted wagons in the new list? Not sure how to field the three models I've built now...

there was a post on Facebook that said we don't make the model so no rules use those conversions as count as battlewagons or FW vehicles. I'm sorry I don't recall where it's located.

This is only a stop gap book maybe rules might appear in our codex or chapter approved.

A well. Can't say I like anything of what I see in 8th so far.

Where are the 'ardboyz in the book btw, also something we'll have to wait on?

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

gungo wrote:

SNIP

So Im really starting to like the idea of rokkit pistols. More so for MEQ and elite hunting. As mentioned the -1 str compared to the rokkit doesn't matter until a T8 unit. Multiwound models still have a chance of dying due to D3 wounds. Which unlike burnas is per shot. so if you connect with both rokkits you can actually outperform rokkits. The question is;

Will there ever be an opportunity to use the rokkit pistols in combat? and is that worth losing the range of the rokkits for 2 shots?
So rokkit pistols can be shot regardless of being in combat, but only in your own turn, so either;

you have to survive a charge, and then shoot back in your turn and fight in combat.

Or charge, survive two turns of combat and then get to shoot again.

Neither of those seem ideal or intuitive, as the likelihood is;

Either the unit you charge isn't great at combat, falls back in its own turn, or dies in combat in 2 turns. Meaning you make no use of the pistol rule

is a combat unit, charged you and your probably not going to survive 2 turns.

Unless your running really large squads. Which can now split fire, so better than before; I see not a huge benefit of having the pistol rule. So; the 2x shots. The Str 7 and 2 shots will indeed be better for MEQ, great for say termies, as you have the chance for each shot to do the 2 dmg and you get the extra shots. I think I will have to try a squad of all pistols, sit them in a trukk and rush up into the enemy lines. Im not sure mixing the weapons in a squad is much benefit, unless you plan on suicide into vehicles with nob hammers and such.

Question; Does the pistol rule allow a unit in an open topped vehicle to shoot into a unit thats within 1" of that vehicle? Do they count as being within 1" of the enemy if they are in the vehicle basically? as the pistol rule states; A model can fire a pistol if within 1"..... in such circumstances, the model can shoot its pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the vehicle. So as long as the embarked unit count as being within 1", they can fire into combat from a vehicle. That could be a very good use of them.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Oh how I long for the days of 3rd edition looted rules.

I have no idea what they will put into chapter approved books but they use to be the rules and designers books to create unique clans, special characters and rules for conversions such as the looted wagon. I'm not sure the exact ruling of the chapter House case but if gw can claim that make an official model by giving specific instructions on how to make a looted wagon using a leman Russ with say an ork trukk kit maybe we will see the looted wagon again but i won't get my hopes up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Solar Shock wrote:

gungo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

gungo wrote:

SNIP

So Im really starting to like the idea of rokkit pistols. More so for MEQ and elite hunting. As mentioned the -1 str compared to the rokkit doesn't matter until a T8 unit. Multiwound models still have a chance of dying due to D3 wounds. Which unlike burnas is per shot. so if you connect with both rokkits you can actually outperform rokkits. The question is;

Will there ever be an opportunity to use the rokkit pistols in combat? and is that worth losing the range of the rokkits for 2 shots?
So rokkit pistols can be shot regardless of being in combat, but only in your own turn, so either;

you have to survive a charge, and then shoot back in your turn and fight in combat.

Or charge, survive two turns of combat and then get to shoot again.

Neither of those seem ideal or intuitive, as the likelihood is;

Either the unit you charge isn't great at combat, falls back in its own turn, or dies in combat in 2 turns. Meaning you make no use of the pistol rule

is a combat unit, charged you and your probably not going to survive 2 turns.

Unless your running really large squads. Which can now split fire, so better than before; I see not a huge benefit of having the pistol rule. So; the 2x shots. The Str 7 and 2 shots will indeed be better for MEQ, great for say termies, as you have the chance for each shot to do the 2 dmg and you get the extra shots. I think I will have to try a squad of all pistols, sit them in a trukk and rush up into the enemy lines. Im not sure mixing the weapons in a squad is much benefit, unless you plan on suicide into vehicles with nob hammers and such.

Question; Does the pistol rule allow a unit in an open topped vehicle to shoot into a unit thats within 1" of that vehicle? Do they count as being within 1" of the enemy if they are in the vehicle basically? as the pistol rule states; A model can fire a pistol if within 1"..... in such circumstances, the model can shoot its pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the vehicle. So as long as the embarked unit count as being within 1", they can fire into combat from a vehicle. That could be a very good use of them.

math wise 5 rokkit pistols at 12in range is still slightly better then 5 rokkits at 12 in range vs toughness 8 and 3+ wound models. However the 24in range makes rokkits more useable. The issue is 5 pistols are much much better vs toughness 6 or less 2 wound or less models. If you plan to charge with your tankbustas or use a weirdboy w them for da jump take rokkit pistols they are better. If you plan to sit back and shoot at large vehicles go for rokkits.

You can only take one set of pistols for every 5 models (not counting Squigs).

gungo wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Oh how I long for the days of 3rd edition looted rules.

I have no idea what they will put into chapter approved books but they use to be the rules and designers books to create unique clans, special characters and rules for conversions such as the looted wagon. I'm not sure the exact ruling of the chapter House case but if gw can claim that make an official model by giving specific instructions on how to make a looted wagon using a leman Russ with say an ork trukk kit maybe we will see the looted wagon again but i won't get my hopes up.

They do seem to have part of a formula for DIY vehicles right now. All those weapons having costs should mean you just need to buy a platform to put them on and decide just what acceptable. Looted vehicles or VDR (Vehicle design rolls) Could be good.

The only Question I have is. Q If a Mob of Orks is half way covered by 2 KFF's does it count as fully with in the KFF? Example, a unit of 30 has 15 boys covered by one KFF and the other 15 boys covered by another. Would this count as fully with in 9" of the KFF or not.
I was really hoping that the KFF was going to count as covering the unit as long as any models were within range again. (Seemed to be implied bu the Faction Focus on the first read through and it got my hopes up. ) B
But it is what it is.

The KFF rules imply units within 9" of that particular KFF, so I would go with no on that one.

I've played a couple games at this point, can share my thoughts:

Change to cover hurts boyz' durability, hard. What was before a 5-4+ save is now a 5-6+ save, or worse. Big boyz blobs are kind of fun, but really get chewed up. Cover just doesn't really help them. Probably require a KFF to help boyz.

Painboyz are kind of 'eh'. They can protect multiple squads, but 6+ FNP isn't much to write home about.

Warbosses are AMAZING. Let all units within 6" run and charge, and can do D3 wounds to pass a morale test.

Ghaz is really quite good, and cheaper.

I've found that boyz are really quite poor at anti-vehicle, now, which honestly makes sense. Their one power klaw is going to do about 4 wounds on average, and most vehicles have like 8+.

Was surprised at how effective shooting was. SAG, mek guns, KMK and smasha gun especially, were effective at taking down even heavy armor (russes).

Dakkajet was also quite effective, though the new flyer rules makes it easy to trap yourself, so be careful to not force yourself to fly off the board and die.

Nobz were shockingly effective at anti armor- big choppas took a knight to pieces. Little ones. Plus, giving them all ammo runts basically gives them extra wounds.

Rokkits seem great.

Battlewagon is kind of 'eh'. Decently durable, deffrolla is ok, but pales in comparison to something like a land raider. Making one into a gunboat is not a bad idea.

Any Sigmar players that can comment on whether Orruks are closer to Boy or Nob size? They have a bunch of spears and pokey bits that might be good for power stabba conversions.

I thought lobbas looked ok?

Yeh lobbas still look good. Still retain the ignore LOS, 48" range, so you can hammer the infantry. And with the d6 hits they can still pile wounds onto things.

Kap'n Krump can you comment further on the SAG, was one of my favourite models and I used to regularly field a few for funny shenanigans and the occasional vortex. To me the the randomness of both the hits and the Str seem to really hurt it.