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gungo wrote:

However 12 in is still better than 9in for rapid fire overcharged plasma that you were using as your base. I can run the numbers again but I still think 6 tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs with 5 rokkits and 1 rokkit pistol (not even using the tankbusta bomb which does even more wounds than a rokkit) (122pt unit). is still better then 10 scions with 4 plasmaguns and a plasma pistol sarg at 9 in with hotshot lasguns rerolling 1s from orders (123pt unit). Even stacking everything in the scions favor vs a toughness 8 3+ save rhino. Im fairly sure the tankbusta unit is still doing more wounds.

Scions can spam command squads. Units of 4 models - all with plasma - all deepstriking. They're very cheap and universal. There's no point in comparing a regular scion. You should compare a plasmagun scion. And he's cheaper and much killier than a tankbusta. In fact, around 2 times better. Not saying tankbustas are bad - just there are plenty of things that are way better for points. I'm not sure we should rely on tankbustas at blowing up vehicles and killing mc. They're quite expensive.

gungo wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.

They are durable and have been winning battle reports. they look decent and FLG has a nice short battle report you can view. However can get very expansive quick. I think its to hard to tell right now how well they will do because it depends on how much anti vehicles flood the meta.
combat boys I think are the bread and butter this edition because of the base rule changes however lootas and flashgits are awesome for gunboats in a battlewagon and still just as good in cover. Mek guns are good except the bubble chukka in my opinion (unless you have a lot of command points to reroll a die). burnas im not sold on at all, however your burna models have a place in your kommando unit.

I wonder how putting:

12 Killa Kans
3 Deff Dreads
1 Morkanaut
12 Lootas

On the table will work then.

Thanks blaktoof I didn't notice the difference.

Looks like trukks do d3 wounds and wagons do d6

Trukk may be better spot for a warboss/banner nob then?

What builds are you guys thinking for BW gunships to cart around gits and lootas?

Kannons/killkannon maybe + big shootas? Rollas of course? Save rokkits for somethin with a reroll?

 koooaei wrote:

gungo wrote:

However 12 in is still better than 9in for rapid fire overcharged plasma that you were using as your base. I can run the numbers again but I still think 6 tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs with 5 rokkits and 1 rokkit pistol (not even using the tankbusta bomb which does even more wounds than a rokkit) (122pt unit). is still better then 10 scions with 4 plasmaguns and a plasma pistol sarg at 9 in with hotshot lasguns rerolling 1s from orders (123pt unit). Even stacking everything in the scions favor vs a toughness 8 3+ save rhino. Im fairly sure the tankbusta unit is still doing more wounds.

Scions can spam command squads. Units of 4 models - all with plasma - all deepstriking. They're very cheap and universal. There's no point in comparing a regular scion. You should compare a plasmagun scion. And he's cheaper and much killier than a tankbusta. In fact, around 2 times better. Not saying tankbustas are bad - just there are plenty of things that are way better for points. I'm not sure we should rely on tankbustas at blowing up vehicles and killing mc. They're quite expensive.

That's not how it works. You cant buy solo plasma gunners scions. You buy units in which ONLY 2 out of 5 scions can take a plasma gun or a command squad of 4 models with 4 plasma guns.
If you want me to do the numbers for a command squad with 4 plasma guns and a tempestor prime issuing his 1 order to reroll 1s at rapid fire range (9in) to the unit I can do that, but remember the tempestor prime ALONE is worth 40 points. You cant have Everything and say its cheaper when its not. For reference bomb squigs are much better then scion plasma gunners over charged in rapid fire range w orders, tankbusta bombs are better then plasmagunners overcharged in rapid fire range w/o orders and the exact same w orders. plasmagunners are slightly better than rokkits w/o orders. If you are just comparing a straight plasma gun scion to a rokkit tankbusta YES there are better but as a squad with 2 bomb squigs. tankbustas are still slightly better vs vehicles offensively pointwise.

I play both armies and I personally think scions are borderline overpowered because they are just great at everything. and I fully expect to see them in top tourney lists, but tankbustas are comparable to them vs targets the tankbustas should target aka vehicles.

You don't need the commander to buy a command squad iirc. And you can spam them without wasting points on troops with the new cads.

 davou wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

You realise that FLG are now basically GW's unpaid PR department, right?

What reason does GW have to suddenly fake a discrepancy in power in their own game? Orks have been universally killing it, tabling armies left and right so far. If gw wanted to create a fake situation, they would favor the game being balanced, not telling game shops to fake wins for orks left and right.

MWG just posted a batrep, and orks table space marines. I added it to the list of batreps on page 1. So far orks have tabled their opponents in more than half the games played, and have only lost one game against tau.

Just to poke a hole in this really quickly, lets take a look at those two armies in that BATREP. Ohh and also, they used powerlevel not points.

Quark took 2 max squads of boyz, 6 bikers, Ghaz and a painboy. 68models.
the Smurf took Chaplain Cassius, 2 five man squads of scouts, bolters and CCWs, 3 Centurions armed with Multi Meltas, a Dreadnought armed with a multi melta and a Vindicator. 16 models

So....what kind of person takes a Melta heavy army against Orkz? Then the SM made the genius decision to charge his Dreadnought into a Full unit of boyz supported by Ghazkuul and the painboy. Go figure it died immediately. (Boyz had 5attacks each).

He also left his Vindicator within Charge range and his Centurions. So after turn 2 for the Orks the game was over. Not because Orkz are super amazing but because the other guy was a Moron. You don't take specialized high damage, anti-vehicle, MC, weapons against an Ork army. You take weight of shots. You also don't leave super expensive, elite shooting units within easy charge range of Orkz. Quark made both charges with like 6in charges.

But with that said it did highlight to me how useless blast weapons have become across the board. the fact that a vindicator is only doing D6 shots is sad. Especially when before it could easily liquidate half a mob of boyz.

 koooaei wrote:
You don't need the commander to buy a command squad iirc. And you can spam them without wasting points on troops with the new cads.

this isn't the guard thread we can take this to pms. You don't need to buy the prime... you do if you want orders.

For reference bomb squigs are much better then scion plasma gunners over charged in rapid fire range w or w/o orders, tankbusta bombs are better then plasmagunners overcharged in rapid fire range w/o orders and the exact same with orders. plasmagunners are slightly better than rokkits w/o orders and a bit better with orders. If you are just comparing a straight plasma gun scion to a rokkit tankbusta YES there are better but as a squad with 2 bomb squigs. tankbustas are still slightly better vs vehicles offensively pointwise. The best model pointwise is bomb squigs by far.....2+ rerollable with str 8 ap-2 d6 wounds and cheaper than scions without needing rapid fire range to maximize output.

I play both armies and I personally think scions are borderline overpowered because they are just great at everything. and I fully expect to see them in top tourney lists, but tankbustas are comparable to them vs targets the tankbustas should target aka vehicles.

SemperMortis wrote:


Just to poke a hole in this really quickly, lets take a look at those two armies

Hows about lets not; I made that comment in reference to someone suggesting that there's a conspiracy to make orks seem powerful when in actuality they aren't.

If you want to criticize the armies from ONE then that's another conversation entirely. I want to know WHY GW would be colluding with game shops to make one of their armies seem more powerful when you tell me they have been in fact nerfed into the dirt 'for another eddition running'. Do you want me to quote when you suggested that GW was paying people to lie about orks? because I did save that comment in case it 'went away'

There are like 8 batreps now on page one, orks have table the opponents in four of them, and have lost only a single one (against tau on far deployment). Two of the times orks table the opponent, they were even seized on. If you want to criticize one of them for list building, this was a list with two huge blobs of boys, and keep in mind that YOU were the one saying that boys were trash earlier because of their weak saves and gakky move.

So no, lets not poke a hole in what I was saying by pretending what I said was actually something else okay?

I'll believe the conspiracy when The Beast gets a model.

skyfi wrote:
Is my logic off here? Characters are at a huge risk being within 6" of vehicles (or embarked upon them) as if it explodes they have a 1/6 chance of receiving d6 mortal wounds? So a unit of nobs with a warboss and banner nob in a battlewafon or truck that explodes would do d6 mortal wounds to each embarked unit? So nobs take d6, warboss takes d6 and banner nob takes d6 as they are all their own units now?

Then the biker boss and kff biker just behind the BW (within 6" of the exploding vehicle in question for arguments sake) would each take their own d6 wounds also?


Seems scary. Kff mek can stay back but embarked characters... ouch. How to being them along with a fully mech list?

Explodes is different than the rule books rule regarding embarked units in a destroyed vehicle.
characters have very little risk embarked on a transport even if it explodes.

when a transport is destroyed, BEFORE you disembark your units roll a d6 to see if it explodes (since it is BEFORE you disembark none of your embarked units are on the table or considered on the board)
any units within whatever inches the rule states will take however mortal wounds the rule states (this is bad for characters on foot close to a vehicle that explodes because yes they can take mortal wounds (unless they have a squig or something to eat it)
The embarked unit DOESNT suffer any damage from the explode result unless specifically called out.

HOWEVER
any vehicle that is destroyed regardless if it explodes or doesn't...
You have to roll a die for each MODEL embarked that you set up on the battlefield. On a roll of 1 ANY model (YOUR CHOICE) is slain.
This means a character embarked is VERY safe from explosions or destroyed vehciles as long as you have other models to eat the slain model result for a destroyed vehicle.
The really bad part though of embarked characters is NONE of their buffs work while embarked on a vehicle (except the big meks KFF).

 davou wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Just to poke a hole in this really quickly, lets take a look at those two armies

Hows about lets not; I made that comment in reference to someone suggesting that there's a conspiracy to make orks seem powerful when in actuality they aren't.

If you want to criticize the armies from ONE then that's another conversation entirely. I want to know WHY GW would be colluding with game shops to make one of their armies seem more powerful when you tell me they have been in fact nerfed into the dirt 'for another eddition running'. Do you want me to quote when you suggested that GW was paying people to lie about orks? because I did save that comment in case it 'went away'

There are like 8 batreps now on page one, orks have table the opponents in four of them, and have lost only a single one (against tau on far deployment). Two of the times orks table the opponent, they were even seized on. If you want to criticize one of them for list building, this was a list with two huge blobs of boys, and keep in mind that YOU were the one saying that boys were trash earlier because of their weak saves and gakky move.

So no, lets not poke a hole in what I was saying by pretending what I said was actually something else okay?

I will poke holes and I will defend that choice now since you want to make it an issue.

First off, I was joking about GW paying FLG to say that. But who knows it might be true. As to your question of why they would do that or ask FLG to make orks sound better? Because they have suffered through 3 editions now with crap, more crap and then a big steaming pile of crap. Due to there crap treatment a lot of players have quit buying Ork models because why invest in something that has crap rules?

I criticize the army from that batrep because YOU brought it up saying "LOOK LOOK ORKS TABLED SOMEONE!" I haven't gone over the other batreps but i will when I get some time, but for the MWG one, it would have taken terrible rolling on an epic scale to make Quark lose that battle.

And to your point "YOU were the one saying that boyz were trash earlier because of their weak saves and gakky move." Yes I did, AND I WAS RIGHT. The moron in that batrep MOVED CLOSER TO THE ORK PLAYER with high priced, low volume of fire models and then got charged or charged into ork boyz. So why are ork boyz trash? they are slow, as demonstrated by the fact that they can only move 11inches at maximum a turn, 1inch less then previously. The heavier stuff in MA is even slower at 10inches and they can only Waaagh if they are within range of a warboss. So yes THEY ARE SLOWER. As to their saves, the dude fired Melta gunz at him and Stormbolters, Now before the ork player wouldn't have gotten a save against Bolters so yay!, of course he didnt save a single model with that save but whatever.

Had that Marine player had the common sense to bring along some HRoF weapons, hell even a couple of heavy bolters, or armed his Centurions with hurricane bolters instead of Multi Meltas then those crappy saves would have shown through.

So in conclusion, if your going to post "Evidence" that orkz are getting buffed and doing amazing then be prepared for me to point out how terrible or mentally incapacitated the opponents were. Or point out how incredibly one sided the dice gods were that game.

You want proof that orkz are doing good? Wait for the first couple tournaments and then we will see, anecdotal evidence from unknown quality players doesn't prove anything, nor does providing Bat reps for uneven armies. If last edition, I took 2 Stompa's against an army of nothing but Space Marines armed with Bolters and then tabled them, would that mean orkz are doing good in 7th edition or was it a matter of the matchup?

Let's not get any closer to personal attacks here, folks.
The long and short of it is that the meta is wide open. I have a feeling that what lists will be good will vary wildly upon what other people end up taking. More games will be played during the first week of the release than have been played in the whole play-testing period... that almost guarantees that there will be things that the playtesters didn't catch. (We've already seen things like Celestine not being unique, and the Darkshrouds ability overlapping with each other... known to be unintended.)

gungo wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.

.

I would generally disagree with the above. Burnas got cheaper, and can use their burnas in both shooting and assault phases. D3 instead of D6 standard on most flamers, but a decent tradeoff for using in both phases in my opinion.

Lootas got slightly more expensive, but do 2 damage and -1 rend. Not really a nerf in my opinion. Plus, you can use command points to reroll their D3 shots.

Flash gitz are more or less the same as they were, just no randomness. But ammo runts are actually pretty good, provide a decent bonus and are extra wounds. They didn't get much better, sadly, but I don't think they got worse.

Mek gunz seem great. Smasha guns especially did good work for me, KMKs are pretty handy, bubblechukkas are better but still silly. Even the gets hot on the KMK isn't so bad, as each mek gun comes with 5 grot gunners, so I can fry them each turn and generally be fine.

Artillery went down to T5 5+ save, but to be fair, T7 3+ save was always ridiculously too tough. And they got 6 wounds too.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Let's not get any closer to personal attacks here, folks.

This is good advice - and absolutely necessary as a condition of posting here on DAKKA DAKKA.

SemperMortis wrote:


So in conclusion, if your going to post "Evidence" that orkz are getting buffed and doing amazing then be prepared for me to point out how terrible or mentally incapacitated the opponents were. Or point out how incredibly one sided the dice gods were that game.

So your saying that;

we can argue about points costs, rules maths, buffs nerfs in a vacuum, and you will never concede a single point despite loads of people disagreeing with you.

That even when you misrepresent the maths regarding the rules we are arguing about by using the wrong numbers, you will still maintain you points

That when the vacuum starts to lift and we get some actual evidence that supports the case you were arguing against, you're going to suggest that every ork player doing well in that body of evidence is Mentally deficient.

Failing being able to argue that the person has some kind of mental handicap, you're going to suggest that the dice spiked (but only ever in favor of the orks).

And finally that if all of the above somehow does not apply, you still reserve the right to accuse the persons making those battle reports of being under pay of some pro-ork conspiracy to hide the fact that they are in actuality nerfed again.

Because I think all the above considered, you should probably not participate in this thread anymore mate... You're contributing a net overall loss to those of us who want to play, are entirely immune to sense or proof, and hostile to any disagreement.

**edit** alright removed a meme so as to be a bit less hostile.

 davou wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


So in conclusion, if your going to post "Evidence" that orkz are getting buffed and doing amazing then be prepared for me to point out how terrible or mentally incapacitated the opponents were. Or point out how incredibly one sided the dice gods were that game.

So your saying that;

we can argue about points costs, rules maths, buffs nerfs in a vacuum, and you will never concede a single point despite loads of people disagreeing with you.

That even when you misrepresent the maths regarding the rules we are arguing about by using the wrong numbers, you will still maintain you points

That when the vacuum starts to lift and we get some actual evidence that supports the case you were arguing against, you're going to suggest that every ork player doing well in that body of evidence is Mentally deficient.

Failing being able to argue that the person has some kind of mental handicap, you're going to suggest that the dice spiked (but only ever in favor of the orks).

And finally that if all of the above somehow does not apply, you still reserve the right to accuse the persons making those battle reports of being under pay of some pro-ork conspiracy to hide the fact that they are in actuality nerfed again.

Because I think all the above considered, you should probably not participate in this thread anymore mate... You're contributing a net overall loss to those of us who want to play, are entirely immune to sense or proof, and hostile to any disagreement.

**edit** alright removed a meme so as to be a bit less hostile.

Can I suggest, just to avoid him derailing yet another Ork thread, just clicking Ignore and then the rest of us can just get on with having a discussion?

What do you do now if you were making use of the Looted Wagon before?

I considered that the basic Ork transport previously.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
What do you do now if you were making use of the Looted Wagon before?

I considered that the basic Ork transport previously.

The official line for now is to use the Battlewagon rules.

 Nazrak wrote:

Can I suggest, just to avoid him derailing yet another Ork thread, just clicking Ignore and then the rest of us can just get on with having a discussion?

You're absolutely right; I have now and I'm sorry to have derailed a bit too.

I think there's something very important we need to do though as a collective... We need to come up with a name for spamming trukk assaults to lock down gun lines. Anyone got any good chitty chitty bang bang puns?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

gungo wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.

.

I would generally disagree with the above. Burnas got cheaper, and can use their burnas in both shooting and assault phases. D3 instead of D6 standard on most flamers, but a decent tradeoff for using in both phases in my opinion.

Lootas got slightly more expensive, but do 2 damage and -1 rend. Not really a nerf in my opinion. Plus, you can use command points to reroll their D3 shots.

Flash gitz are more or less the same as they were, just no randomness. But ammo runts are actually pretty good, provide a decent bonus and are extra wounds. They didn't get much better, sadly, but I don't think they got worse.

Mek gunz seem great. Smasha guns especially did good work for me, KMKs are pretty handy, bubblechukkas are better but still silly. Even the gets hot on the KMK isn't so bad, as each mek gun comes with 5 grot gunners, so I can fry them each turn and generally be fine.

Artillery went down to T5 5+ save, but to be fair, T7 3+ save was always ridiculously too tough. And they got 6 wounds too.

I agree with you however I don't think burnas are bad persay but Kommandos are a better use for burna models. The burna unit I feel needs a small buff such as ignore cover modfiers in order to be better option than kommandos.
everything else you wrote I agree
You can even use multiple 5 model grot gunners units to operate multiple mek guns however a single grot gunner model can not operate more than 1 mek gun. Its all a bit weirdly worded since the rules state a mekgun and 5 grot gunner squad are a single unit and then say a unit of grot gunners within 3in of a mek gun can fire it and a unit of multiple mek guns and their grot gunners are one group. Just remember even though the mek gun has ldr 6, each slain grot risk you failing morale, but they are a decent objective camping unit because ldr6 is better than a basic grot units ldr4 (w/o runtherder)

 JohnU wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
What do you do now if you were making use of the Looted Wagon before?

I considered that the basic Ork transport previously.

The official line for now is to use the Battlewagon rules.

Well, looks like the Lootas and what not are staying put on the table then.

I heard the Battlewagon got more expensive and I was never really sold on that as a unit before.

because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.

gungo wrote:
because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.

I hope Forgeworld gets the Ork Index rolled out in a timely manner then.

Planning a 500 point 8th ed. game for the weekend, and since it's all new I figured I'd run my thoughts past all you weirdboyz and warbosses. Will be facing a tau player who likes his crisis suits/commanders....

Here are some lists- broad strokes, points need fiddling.
In Their Face list
2 trukks
2 units of 10ish boyz
Biker boss with klaw
Stormboyz

Pros- ZOOOOOM!; trukks survive longer, especially in small games; boss is fearsome, aura bonuses
Cons- no range, (relatively) low model count, klaw as only anti tank.

Da Jump list
30 boyz
Weirdboy
2 KMKs
....more stormboyz?

Pros- 30 boyz in your face; strong(er) anti armor; fun
Cons- kinda all over the place; weirdboy loses oomph after jump

Other thoughts-
Baddruk is only 84 points, and is practically a 24"KMK. Could he be worth bringing as a low point anti armor option?

Is there a viable way to run nobz without a trukk?

Deffkoptas seem good, but 70something is a lot of points for one model...

The Imperial Answer wrote:

gungo wrote:
because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.

I hope Forgeworld gets the Ork Index rolled out in a timely manner then.

You can see the table of contents for the FW stuff if you look on the pre-order page. No looted wagons :/

Big Trakk rules might be the closest we get for now.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Index-xenos-2017

 hordrak wrote:
Power Stabbas on Nobs look good for 3pts. -2 AP is great, but any ideas how they are supposed to look? Just say that choppas are stabbas now?

Im just gonna stick some wires on their Choppas, cuz i refuse to call them Powa Stabbas, they are Powa Choppas. And honestly, with how cheap the Powa Choppas are and with the improvements to the Big Choppa, the Power Klaw just seems overpriced for what it brings.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
So how viable is the Ork walker wall in this edition?

And is it me or have all of the Ork units that had decent ballistic abilities or a high volume of fire taken a hit? I keep hearing Burnas, Lootas, Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz have been nerfed to a degree.

Burnas only have d3 shots for...reasons. Gitz are basically what they were last Ed, Loots aren't good now because of how cover works, not cuz of their guns, and Mek Guns just got much more expensive.

SemperMortis wrote:
But with that said it did highlight to me how useless blast weapons have become across the board. the fact that a vindicator is only doing D6 shots is sad. Especially when before it could easily liquidate half a mob of boyz.

Cannot agree more. They should have been D3+3, and then D6+3 if the target is 10+ models, might make them more viable, cuz right now, im not seeing it.

I'm porting my post from over at the Waaagh forum.

Played my first game last night. Yep still struggle to take down knights, 3 even more so, tabled by turn two. A lot taken away from even one game., yes I understand I might be projecting more than I should in the following comments

A knight can take out an unf-FF'd battlewagon in a turn, 'ardtop does make a difference, my second wagon wasn't killed in one round of knight shooting due to the 4's to be wounded.

Knight overwatch is PUNISHING. I didnt get my 10 nobs with powerklaws into melee and then it was all over. We replayed nobs getting in, with a Waaagh Banner they juts killed a knight, on the second pretend play through without the banner it had a few wounds left, stepped out of combat and obliterated my only unit which could touch it.

Trukks are happily resilient . One can take a few missiles and still live.

Are the rules better? Well they played a bit faster. But you will still need to agree to the power level of games, it is still too easy to have a mismatched game simply due to not agreeing to be a douche.

Orks will probably need to bring all their buffing characters to make them work properly.

You'll need:
1. A warboss for the advance then charge if you have any infantry
2. A Mek with KFF if you have any vehicles as your vehicles will be saving on 6's or 7's v anti tank otherwise
3. A Waaagh Banner if you are tooled for melee because when you do get into melee you'll want to hit. Interesting this made a difference to Deffrollas (we ran a trial with ad without)
4. A Doc as you'll want that little bit of extra resilience for your elite units.

What is good about Orks:
1. They are very fast. With a melee focused army you should get army wide charges turn 2 without even trying.
2. Tooled correctly they have become a viable melee focused army

What was interesting about the rules:
1. CPs for rerolls and ignore moral is useful
2. Trimmed right down and much faster
3. There will still need to be gentleman's agreements about level you are playing at (i dont mean points I mean how powerful the lists are)
4. Unit's strengths have changed
5. Spamming seems even more necessary now than before, pick a type of army, i.e melee or shooting, then go for it.

 DaisyWondercow wrote:
Planning a 500 point 8th ed. game for the weekend, and since it's all new I figured I'd run my thoughts past all you weirdboyz and warbosses. Will be facing a tau player who likes his crisis suits/commanders....

Here are some lists- broad strokes, points need fiddling.
In Their Face list
2 trukks
2 units of 10ish boyz
Biker boss with klaw
Stormboyz

Pros- ZOOOOOM!; trukks survive longer, especially in small games; boss is fearsome, aura bonuses
Cons- no range, (relatively) low model count, klaw as only anti tank.
.

A variant on your first list that might address some of your issues. Wouldn't worry about dedicated anti-tank too much at this point level since vehicles are fairly pricey. You have the speed to cross the board so range isn't as big a deal either.

Patrol Detachment

Biker Boss w/ Big Choppa and Kustom shoota 99
11 Boyz, Nob w/ Big Choppa, Trukk w/ Big Shoota and Wrecking Ball 151
30 Stormboyz, Nob w/ Big choppa 249
499
Gives you more models, Stormboyz can be bubble wrap against deep strikers if needed, but can get around the (presumably) 4x4 in a hurry. Flat 2 damage from BCs is good against elite troops and still decent against lighter vehicles. Boss is putting out 10 shots and is fast enough to keep up with the Stormboyz.

Thornoo1 wrote:
I'm porting my post from over at the Waaagh forum.

Played my first game last night. Yep still struggle to take down knights, 3 even more so, tabled by turn two. A lot taken away from even one game., yes I understand I might be projecting more than I should in the following comments

A knight can take out an unf-FF'd battlewagon in a turn, 'ardtop does make a difference, my second wagon wasn't killed in one round of knight shooting due to the 4's to be wounded.

Knight overwatch is PUNISHING. I didnt get my 10 nobs with powerklaws into melee and then it was all over. We replayed nobs getting in, with a Waaagh Banner they juts killed a knight, on the second pretend play through without the banner it had a few wounds left, stepped out of combat and obliterated my only unit which could touch it.

This might be good for us in a way. If Knights become the new scatbikes, everyone will be taking more anti-tank, which means on the non-knight games many armies won't be able to deal with hordes.

I think the koncept of power stabbas are cute, but I'm not sure I like them in practice. I guess I'm just a fan of the classic big choppa/power klaw combo.

I guess it's decent for the price, but I'd prefer to pay a little more and get a D2 weapon and better strength, if worse AP.