Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Solar Shock**

warhead01 wrote:
Stormboys for sure! I can't wait to try that too.
Not sold on the KMK yet. Heavy D6, then roll to hit. So. Can that be averaged? (I'm not a math guy. I'm a weight of number, Down some Jagermeister and swing for the fences kinda guy.)

Well i would assume the math is simply, D6 hits, at BS4, so you'll average half of what ever number of shots you have. Wounding on 2's for T4, and 3s for T5-7, 4s for T8.

As for a SAG mek with the artillery. Could be good. But I imagine a KFF is better. Means you dont have to sit in cover and will always have a 5++. But if you want a SAG, try a void generator for 4++ for all of them

**SemperMortis**

Blackie wrote:
How do you see the new KMKs? Being heavy D6 means they have an average of 3 hits every turn, which is better than before, for 48 points each (if I did the calculations right). No more possibility to hurt our own units. Even if the new gets hot rule brings an average of 1 wound suffered everytime a KMK fires with 6W this piece of artilley looks pretty intimidating, and a cheap mek or even a big mek positioned near the battery can restore lost wounds. I'm not sure if they can take ammo runts though, the profile don't show this possibility but I guess it doesn't really matter now.

The KFF seems another interesting item now, especially on a biker mek that gives an invuln to multiple vehicles. For that purpose are bikes still better than buggies to ride with the bik mek? I think so, but I really like the new buggies and finally they're going back to the battlefields.

The nob upgrade in now free right? I mean in units of boyz, tankbustas, bikes... also the 'ard case seems a free update and now that every vehicle allows the assault it looks like mandatory for those transports that carry melee units like meganobz, nobz or slugga/choppa boyz.

Average of a D6 weapon is 3.5, or 3 or 4 shots a turn. hitting on 4s means 1.5-2 hits on average a turn, not 3. Also, keep in mind that Meganobz went up in price considerably and LOST close combat ability (-1 to hit when using PKs).

KFF seems like crap to me but I haven't had a chance to use it so hopefully this weekend i can bang out a few games with my KFFs. I'm really looking forward to using some Kommandos and Stormboyz and more then that I have a reason to field Ghaz now!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
SIDE NOTE!

Notice how GW left out the Grot special rule for our gunners?

+1 to hit when in mobs of 20+ Since you can field 5 grots per gun you could technically get 30 grots in a Mek Gun battery which means they should gain that +1 to hit but they dont :(

**Blackie**

warhead01 wrote:
Stormboys for sure! I can't wait to try that too.
Not sold on the KMK yet. Heavy D6, then roll to hit. So. Can that be averaged? (I'm not a math guy. I'm a weight of number, Down some Jagermeister and swing for the fences kinda guy.)
Do we have anything close to a consensus about which Mek guns are reliable yet? One thing about power Levels I've noticed, I could be way off here but it seems to me, Some units are begging to be fielded in certain costs. 5 Lootas is 8. 15 Lootas is 16. Split fire is a thing. So why would I take Lootas in anything less than their full unit size. They should draw more fire to wipe them out and have the LD15 going for them So they son't seem any more vulnerable than 3 mobs of 5. Maybe better.as they would be 8 PL cheaper.

My bad, I considered them heavy6, instead of heavy D6

**davou**

Glitcha wrote:
This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.

Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.

**little-killer**

davou wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.

Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.

Yep i am glad of that, (here come my stompa and gargantuan squiggoth, can't wait anymore to have the fw index)

**warhead01**

davou wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.

Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.

I don't understand how that works. Please explain.

**gungo**

Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff
The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.
The best non-dedicated anti flyer is stormboyz, however burnas are very effective at damaging flyers. You only measure to the base now and burnas do not care about hard to hit rule. Beyond that tractor Kannon and other flyers are the best antiair. Tankbustas are poor since a 6+ rerollable still sucks and bomb squigs don't work at all.
Lobbas are good they just got more expensive though. Kmks are very good because you can still kill a grot for a gets hot.

Regarding painboys the painboys is a bit expensive and isn't really great when he hits on a 4+. However if you are taking a painboy on foot just take mad doc. He is a 3+ to hit, a slugga (the painboy doesn't even have a range weapon), he gets double chance at fnp for himself, toughness 5 instead of 4, ldr 8 instead of 6, and 4+ instead of 6+ sv, and can heal any ork clan. For 9 more points 65 to 74 (5 w grot). He loses 1 wound cause he can't take a orderly and can't upgrade to kill saw which isn't worth it on a painboy imho.

**Blackie**

SemperMortis wrote:

Average of a D6 weapon is 3.5, or 3 or 4 shots a turn. hitting on 4s means 1.5-2 hits on average a turn, not 3. Also, keep in mind that Meganobz went up in price considerably and LOST close combat ability (-1 to hit when using PKs).

Yeah, I read and wrote heavyD6 and actually act like it was heavy6

Meganobz are pricey and lost 1 attack but now they have S10 and the hit first on the charge, still on a 4+ like before unless you were using the formation. In 7th edition they were obliterated against any dedeicated close combat unit thanks to the possible AP2 and the highest initiative. Now they also got a third wound. The real problem with meganobz is that transport became very expensive and trukks can be death traps for them now. The bullyboyz is certainly gone but a unit of 4 or 5 can be quite effective in this current edition, especially with a banner nob nearby that can buff a couple of choppy units, maybe a mob of boyz and a warboss other than the meganobz. The kombi skorchas and killsaws are gone though, as they are extremely pricey.

**warhead01**

gungo wrote:
Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff
The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.

I'm looking at the KFF rule and it says must be entirely within 9". So, if part of a base is not within 9" how can a model be within 9". I don't get it. I wont be playing it as a toe in rule, that's not the way it reads to me. Sounds like cheating. A single model is still a unit of one.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

Cuz05 wrote:
If we get the Gitfinda back in the codex I'll be delighted...

Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.

Also pondering how one Weirdboy slingshotting another could be applied... Must be something in that.... Was thinking about teleporting Ghaz''s buffs about the place but that's seeming like a 3 or 4 turn play, lol.

If what your saying is how I'm interpreting it.. this isnt allowed in matched play as you can only attempt to manifest da jamp (and any other pyschic power other then smite) once per turn. Even across multiple psychers.

**warhead01**

Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.

I don't think Baddruk's Flasgit Ability works at all when embarked on a vehicle, based on the transport rules. Abilities have no effect on models in range when embarked.

**Glitcha**

warhead01 wrote:
davou wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.

Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.

I don't understand how that works. Please explain.

I'm sorry, but a Single model are a unit. For example a single deff dread is a unit. There for he would need to be completely within 9" of the KFF. Another example. Boyz, a unit of boyz is all the boyz models in that squad. You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

I see it now under the Transports side bar. "Unless specifically stated, abilites that affect other units within a specific range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked." So He could be behind the wagon on foot and the gitz could be emabrked and gain the benfit. But then he probably wouldnt have LOS to shoot and would be minus one to hit as he moved to keep up with the wagon. Its just interesting that if he is embarked it doesnt work.. but if he is not embarked but the gitz ARE then it does. Seems....not thought out to me. oh wells. demz da rules.

**DaisyWondercow**

Glitcha wrote:
You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.

I think the ambiguity is that these are two different measurements. "More than 9" away" would mean that the closest part of the base is >9" away. "Completely within 9"" means that the FURTHEST part of the model <9" away. So there's very nearly an inch difference between these wordings.

**juanonymous**

warhead01 wrote:

Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.

I don't think Baddruk's Flasgit Ability works at all when embarked on a vehicle, based on the transport rules. Abilities have no effect on models in range when embarked.

Unfortunately it seems like this is the case- but it seems like an oversight, as even a mek/big mek's repairing ability isn't allowed while sitting inside a battlewagon or gorknaut etc..

**warhead01**

juanonymous wrote:
warhead01 wrote:

Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.

I don't think Baddruk's Flasgit Ability works at all when embarked on a vehicle, based on the transport rules. Abilities have no effect on models in range when embarked.

Unfortunately it seems like this is the case- but it seems like an oversight, as even a mek/big mek's repairing ability isn't allowed while sitting inside a battlewagon or gorknaut etc..

Maybe so but I think it was intended based on how it's worded. At least it effects every one the same until they change something later. Just gotta get out to fix a flat tire. (Not that that's a thing anymore lol.)

**Sal4m4nd3r**

WOW forgot about the big meks and meks having the repair ability. LOL Thats dumb that doesnt work insdie the vehicle. Guess thats the same for the Spanna boys to..what the feth is the point of taking spannas or meks (little meks) then??

**Blackie**

Glitcha wrote:
warhead01 wrote:
davou wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.

Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.

I don't understand how that works. Please explain.

I'm sorry, but a Single model are a unit. For example a single deff dread is a unit. There for he would need to be completely within 9" of the KFF. Another example. Boyz, a unit of boyz is all the boyz models in that squad. You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.

Looks pretty silly though, if 29 boyz are under the bubble and a only one isn't means that not a single boy gets the invuln? Ruleswise it appears like that but it doesn't make any sense. I wasn't planning of running KFF that covers footslogging units though, I'm thinking about a biker mek that gives the invuln to trukks and BWs. He can also repairs those vehicles.

**gungo**

warhead01 wrote:
gungo wrote:
Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff
The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.

I'm looking at the KFF rule and it says must be entirely within 9". So, if part of a base is not within 9" how can a model be within 9". I don't get it. I wont be playing it as a toe in rule, that's not the way it reads to me. Sounds like cheating. A single model is still a unit of one.

The rule specifically says unit not model. So a unit with every model partially within the kff is still a unit that's entirely within the kff. If it said every model in a unit must be entirely within it would be as you said. However I do see your point and it could be intended either way. But if it is as you said a stompa can never be within 9in as it's never entirely within.

**warhead01**

Blackie wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
warhead01 wrote:
davou wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
This mainly is because in order to benefit from the KFF you have to be completely within 9" of the KFF.

Just a heads up, only UNITS need to be completely within the 9. single Models are allowed to clip the edge and benefit because then technically their entire unit is inside.

I don't understand how that works. Please explain.

I'm sorry, but a Single model are a unit. For example a single deff dread is a unit. There for he would need to be completely within 9" of the KFF. Another example. Boyz, a unit of boyz is all the boyz models in that squad. You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.

Looks pretty silly though, if 29 boyz are under the bubble and a only one isn't means that not a single boy gets the invuln? Ruleswise it appears like that but it doesn't make any sense. I wasn't planning of running KFF that covers footslogging units though, I'm thinking about a biker mek that gives the invuln to trukks and BWs. He can also repairs those vehicles.

This leads me to ask. if 29 boys are in and one isn't and sever wounds that need saving come in. Could we assign one to the boy out side, pass or fail the 6+ save. if we fail now 29 buys, the whole unit are under the KFF. Would we then be able to take the 5++ from the KFF.
Also. It's not really just 9". we're actually talking 18" or more when the KFF holders base is taken into account.
Should look like this. +++++++++o+++++++++ (the "o" is a base. clearly this isn't to scale.)

**gungo**

Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Cuz05 wrote:
If we get the Gitfinda back in the codex I'll be delighted...

Yeah I was sad to see this not in the data sheets. Also, why is everyone saying Baddruck's flashiest git special rule (re-roll hit rolls of 1 for nearby gitz) if they are all in a wagon together? Is there a rule in the BRB that SPECIFICALLY disallows that from happening? I havent seen one and common sense would tell you he is within the 6" if they are in the same transport.

Also pondering how one Weirdboy slingshotting another could be applied... Must be something in that.... Was thinking about teleporting Ghaz''s buffs about the place but that's seeming like a 3 or 4 turn play, lol.

If what your saying is how I'm interpreting it.. this isnt allowed in matched play as you can only attempt to manifest da jamp (and any other pyschic power other then smite) once per turn. Even across multiple psychers.

Not sure ur exact question is asking but badrukk special rule does not work in a transport as no special character confered special rules work in transports. Even though we can say they obviously must be within 6in. Units on transports are considered not in play for special rules. It's in the transport section of the rulebook.

**Grimmor**

fe40k wrote:

Your list looks similar to one I was considering running (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727918.page); let me know how it works out for you.

Also, the warbuggies look fast plus can reserve/Outrider - however, I'm concerned they might be expensive for what they do; I'm looking at a 6 man unit of Tankbustas+Trukk, and it comes out to a little less than the price of a 3 man Warbuggy+Rack of Rokkits squad. You get the same number of shots, but have rerolls (and potential bomb squig) and about the same number of wounds (5x3 vs 10+1x6). If the Trukk is destroyed too, the Tankbusta unit can't be shot at by the unit that destroyed the Trukk during the shooting round (as the models weren't on the table when shooting selection began). The Trukk also has Ramshakle, which can very unreliably save it from random strong attacks.

Warbuggies
M14" WS3+ BS5+ S4 T5 W5 A4 Sv4+ ; Outriders

Trukk
M12" WS5+ BS5+ S6 T6 W10 A3 Sv4+ ; Ramshackle

Hard to say if a squad of 3 Warbuggies with Rokkits or a 6 ork Squad of Tankbustas+Trukk is the way to go for 200/216 points.

They have slightly different uses; the Warbuggies are better in combat, but more and less vulnerable to shooting. The Tankbustas are better vs tanks, but aren't as versatile (can't tie something up in combat).

Thoughts?

Id say that the Warbuggies are the more generalist unit, and Tankbustas are better when your fighting a highly Mechanizd army. I honestly just feel the Outflank is the worth the couple of points diference.

koooaei wrote:
I'd not call pk dirt cheap. If something, they actually do much less than they used to. And still cost the same.

And that is a kick to the nads. Seriously it should cost 15 or 20 points if only because the thing has a fairly large negative.

**grnsknz**

Someone mentioned the idea of weirdboys slingshotting each other to the backfield with da jump. I was also thinking about this strategy. The opponent will most possibly keep characters in the back. One weirdboy teleports the other to a position 9" away that is carefully selected to make the enemy character the closest model, then the teleported casts a smite. The problem is that characters tend to have 4+ wounds...

Could this be still a thing?

And of course if there is such a huge hole in the back that makes this scenario possible it may be better to teleport a blob of boyz then shoot/charge. Positioning seems way more important then in 7th.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For weirdboyz the 'eadbanger could be better than smite with a reroll from command points.

**davou**

Glitcha wrote:

I'm sorry, but a Single model are a unit. For example a single deff dread is a unit. There for he would need to be completely within 9" of the KFF. Another example. Boyz, a unit of boyz is all the boyz models in that squad. You can't have 1 boy more than 9" away from the KFF, because then the unit is not completely within 9" of the KFF. Its pretty simple.

yes, a single model is a unit.

and if that single model clips the KFF bubble, then technically he is inside.

Given that his entire unit is himself, his entire unit is inside.

If models needed to be entirely within, it would say so; it mentions only units therefore clipping the edge is fine and counts.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

gungo wrote:
warhead01 wrote:
gungo wrote:
Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff
The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.

I'm looking at the KFF rule and it says must be entirely within 9". So, if part of a base is not within 9" how can a model be within 9". I don't get it. I wont be playing it as a toe in rule, that's not the way it reads to me. Sounds like cheating. A single model is still a unit of one.

The rule specifically says unit not model. So a unit with every model partially within the kff is still a unit that's entirely within the kff. If it said every model in a unit must be entirely within it would be as you said. However I do see your point and it could be intended either way. But if it is as you said a stompa can never be within 9in as it's never entirely within.

Yes so if the couple of models on the fringe of the unit are only partially within the bubble then thats ok.. but what the wording prevents is "conga lining" a long line of 30 boys back to the range of the big mek and still getting the 5+ save. Or having one boy of a 30 man blob 9" away giving the entire unit which may in actuality much further away. I would like to see a wording like if at least 50% of the models in the unit are within 9" then they get the save. This is a good compromise.. although could complicate the issue.

Its further disappointing that the KFF is designed in a way its not effective for footsloggers/green tide style of armies. It is difficult for one KFF big mek in range of 2 full units of boys unless he is RIGHT next to both units, like a KFF sandwich. You would need a KFF big mek for each unit almost. which isnt point effective. And then the painboy goes down in base cost, but HAS to pay for the PK which pushes his effective cost to 65 points. 5 points more expensive then last edition AND loses half his effectiveness!! (from 5+ to 6+) Another kick in the nuts to orks by GW.

**Cuz05**

grnsknz wrote:
Someone mentioned the idea of weirdboys slingshotting each other to the backfield with da jump. I was also thinking about this strategy. The opponent will most possibly keep characters in the back. One weirdboy teleports the other to a position 9" away that is carefully selected to make the enemy character the closest model, then the teleported casts a smite. The problem is that characters tend to have 4+ wounds...

Could this be still a thing?

And of course if there is such a huge hole in the back that makes this scenario possible it may be better to teleport a blob of boyz then shoot/charge. Positioning seems way more important then in 7th.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For weirdboyz the 'eadbanger could be better than smite with a reroll from command points.

I'd think it would still be better to fling something more killy up there for that purpose but the small footprint of one model would maybe help. Tho he'd surely die the very next turn.
I was kind of thinking about being able to redeploy something you already have there. Not casting Jump twice in a turn BTW. But, rough eg, you have some Kommandos up there, they kill what you put them there to kill, then you have a weirdboy up there to move em somewhere else, while still having another at the back to move something else, like sending Ghaz up to buff some boyz. I dunno, not managed to figure out any real logistics or purpose to it all. Ofc, the Weirdboy can always move himself around anyway. Not being able to do the same power twice in a turn probably limits this kind of thing. Which is good overall imo.
One thing I did try to use it for in 7th was a late objective grab. Just pop the Weirdboy over there sInce he's not doing anything else now.... scatter was not my friend then...

**davou**

Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
gungo wrote:
warhead01 wrote:
gungo wrote:
Few things
A single model doesn't have to be completely within the kff
The rule is only a unit needs to be within so as long as the gorkanauts base is partially within the kff than the unit is within the kff.

I'm looking at the KFF rule and it says must be entirely within 9". So, if part of a base is not within 9" how can a model be within 9". I don't get it. I wont be playing it as a toe in rule, that's not the way it reads to me. Sounds like cheating. A single model is still a unit of one.

The rule specifically says unit not model. So a unit with every model partially within the kff is still a unit that's entirely within the kff. If it said every model in a unit must be entirely within it would be as you said. However I do see your point and it could be intended either way. But if it is as you said a stompa can never be within 9in as it's never entirely within.

Yes so if the couple of models on the fringe of the unit are only partially within the bubble then thats ok.. but what the wording prevents is "conga lining" a long line of 30 boys back to the range of the big mek and still getting the 5+ save. Or having one boy of a 30 man blob 9" away giving the entire unit which may in actuality much further away. I would like to see a wording like if at least 50% of the models in the unit are within 9" then they get the save. This is a good compromise.. although could complicate the issue.

Its further disappointing that the KFF is designed in a way its not effective for footsloggers/green tide style of armies. It is difficult for one KFF big mek in range of 2 full units of boys unless he is RIGHT next to both units, like a KFF sandwich. You would need a KFF big mek for each unit almost. which isnt point effective. And then the painboy goes down in base cost, but HAS to pay for the PK which pushes his effective cost to 65 points. 5 points more expensive then last edition AND loses half his effectiveness!! (from 5+ to 6+) Another kick in the nuts to orks by GW.

And I am clear on the transport issue. Although If Baddruck is outside the transport, but the gitz are inside they would still get the bonus. It only limits the unit GIVING the bonus, not the unit RECEIVING the bonus.

Id like

Models within 9 inches reicieve a 5++, models in units within 9 but not withing 9 themselves recieve a 6++

**JimOnMars**

grnsknz wrote:
Someone mentioned the idea of weirdboys slingshotting each other to the backfield with da jump. I was also thinking about this strategy. The opponent will most possibly keep characters in the back. One weirdboy teleports the other to a position 9" away that is carefully selected to make the enemy character the closest model, then the teleported casts a smite. The problem is that characters tend to have 4+ wounds...

Could this be still a thing?

And of course if there is such a huge hole in the back that makes this scenario possible it may be better to teleport a blob of boyz then shoot/charge. Positioning seems way more important then in 7th.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For weirdboyz the 'eadbanger could be better than smite with a reroll from command points.

Smite probably won't get enough wounds, but it could ding him one or two. 'eadbanger will almost never get used because you need equal or higher toughness on a d6...only for certain units like Celestine.

**Jambles**

KFF is still great at giving your battlewagon with nobz/meganobz or whatnot a 5++ to get up the field. And a 5++ once they get out is a godsend for nobz especially vs overwatch and the like, and they don't have any trouble getting under the bubble.

Taking multiple KFFs for a horde army wouldn't be so bad - they're not cheap but they're not super expensive either. The points savings you get from not having to get Nobz in boyz units alone has freed up so much space in my non-vehicle lists.

**Sal4m4nd3r**

davou wrote:
Id like

Models within 9 inches reicieve a 5++, models in units within 9 but not withing 9 themselves recieve a 6++

So like a weakening force field..? thats a really neat idea.