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2017/07/27 18:42:42
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
gungo wrote: I'm just waiting for FW to release the mega dread datasheet.
and I don't think dread is our strongest list but I do think you can make it work and be fun.
With something like a
Spoiler:
zhardsnark
weird boy w da jump (use da jump on mega nobs)
Bigmek on bike w kff (covers killkans)
a meka dread with kff (covers dreads and gork first few turns)
a mega dread with double supa skorcha and mega charga
2x deff dreads w 3xklaw and skorcha
6x killkans w 6xbigshootas
gorkanaut (place meganobs inside gorkanaut first turn)
3x double kill saw mega nobs
Turn 1 should have the meganobs and megadread and zhardsnark in your opponents face.
the gorkanaut, mekadread and 2x dreads should be dropping support fire and progressing for a turn 2 charge w a 5+ invul protecting them.
The rear line has the big mek on bike, weirdboy and 6x killkans with a 5+ invul dropping support fire and it can also progress down the field if needed.
Everything but the weirdboy is toughness 5 or higher with a 3+ sv and 5+ invul. lots of str5 or better shooting and lots of str8 or higher atks. Issue is low model count (17) and high drops (10). Also has 9 command points to reroll charges or reroll ramshackle or saves.
I think you want to get Banner Nobz in there somehow, and always be sure the Kanz aren't too far from Ld 8.
Basically two groups of six kanz, a dread, a KFF mek, and a Banner Nob walking on either side of a Gorkanaught with a weirdboy and burna boyz inside. Lots of 5+ Toughness to marginalize small arms, the modifiers to make walkers shine, and skorchas to try and mitigate mobz. It ain't fast or shooty at all, but it's a lot of choppy on t5+ models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 18:55:36
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
2017/07/27 20:20:50
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
PK are usually more efficient, and Klaws have always been the best way for Orks to deal with pesky enemy wagonz and such.
On squads of Nobz and on Warbosses they are currently more efficient due to the high cost of the platform carrying the klaw. (You can't just do the math as 25pt klaw vs 9 pt Big Choppa).
On Boss Nob in squad of boyz they are ~ 20% less efficient vs T7 3+, but more efficient vs T8.
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
Bear in mind that Power Klaws on Nobs are S10 as opposed to a Captain's S8
I could see Power Klaws dropping - but not as much.
I guess you could argue that Captains hit on 3+ with a reroll from Rites of Battle and potential Chapter Master though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 20:26:35
YMDC = nightmare
2017/07/27 20:41:32
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
I think you want to get Banner Nobz in there somehow, and always be sure the Kanz aren't too far from Ld 8.
What do you mean by that?
4s to hit in combat instead of 5s
Killa Kans are susceptible to morale since they can't share LD through Mob Rule. May be worthwhile having a Warboss for D3 mortal wounds instead of outright losing models
YMDC = nightmare
2017/07/27 21:10:12
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
bosswoodfox wrote: PK are usually more efficient, and Klaws have always been the best way for Orks to deal with pesky enemy wagonz and such.
On squads of Nobz and on Warbosses they are currently more efficient due to the high cost of the platform carrying the klaw. (You can't just do the math as 25pt klaw vs 9 pt Big Choppa).
On Boss Nob in squad of boyz they are ~ 20% less efficient vs T7 3+, but more efficient vs T8.
The Big Choppa is better vs infantry but a kunnin' Nob lets da boyz take care of da gitz while he finds a shiny wagon to klaw.
If you must shave 16 pts off your list, only then take a Big choppa.
The analysis for PKs against armor had gotten better since the thread you posted. The nerf to flyers means an Ork army can just kill everything on the ground instead of trying to hurt the flyers. That makes Ork melee a much much better solution.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's a reference list for the most competitive build I think we have:
bosswoodfox wrote: I agree with that list mostly, except trade the Nobz squads for more boyz.
Anything shooty is going to keep the nobz from making combat and you can buy 120 more boyz instead of those 20 nobz.
Looks fun though, less spammy than massed boyz and I would like to try it.
The Nobz get babied with KFF, Painboy, Boy Bubble Wrap of at least 3 inches on all sides to prevent rapid fire plasma, and take priority in Da Jump line if there is an armored target close enough to the main blob. If you take all single wound fire on Big Choppa Nobz and all multi wound fire on Runtz, they still might not make it, but they are the best shot we have at removing armor. If they do get the charge, the Nobz remove an Imperial Knight from the table. It's possible that a few of those Nobz with Big Choppa should have Powa Stabbas to serve as ablative wounds, maybe even all of them. That would up the Boyz count by 12, which fills out the 29 squads and gives you a unit of 10 to act as the back of the formation.
2017/07/28 03:47:42
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
bosswoodfox wrote: I agree with that list mostly, except trade the Nobz squads for more boyz.
Anything shooty is going to keep the nobz from making combat and you can buy 120 more boyz instead of those 20 nobz.
Looks fun though, less spammy than massed boyz and I would like to try it.
The Nobz get babied with KFF, Painboy, Boy Bubble Wrap of at least 3 inches on all sides to prevent rapid fire plasma, and take priority in Da Jump line if there is an armored target close enough to the main blob. If you take all single wound fire on Big Choppa Nobz and all multi wound fire on Runtz, they still might not make it, but they are the best shot we have at removing armor. If they do get the charge, the Nobz remove an Imperial Knight from the table. It's possible that a few of those Nobz with Big Choppa should have Powa Stabbas to serve as ablative wounds, maybe even all of them. That would up the Boyz count by 12, which fills out the 29 squads and gives you a unit of 10 to act as the back of the formation.
KFF doesn't help Nobz out as much as you think nor do Painboyz. I broke down the math a bit ago, but basically you need to make a lot of saves to justify the existence of the painboy and KFF and you won't make your points back most of the time. For starters the KFF is only good on AP-2 and better weapons on Nobz because they have a standard 4+ Save. So right off the bat most weapons you aren't going to be using that KFF on. Next, against AP-2 and better weapons you get that 5++ which is nice but you need to make about 8 to justify the KFF. After that you need to make about 7 6+FNP saves to justify the existence of the Painboy. So, lets break that down, in order to make 7 saves of 5++ you are most likely going to fail 14 times, 14 AP-2 wounds (usually D3 or 2+ damage each) will kill about 14 Nobz the 6+ FNP will maybe save 4ish of those since you get 1 for every wound lost. So you have justified the existence of the KFF but the Painboy will never be able to make his points back because he only has 6 models left to save, or 12 wounds. He is again likely to save 2 of those. So you are investing a rather huge number of points into a relatively small unit in the hope of making it across the field. Someone else mentioned earlier that you could take something like 120 more boyz for the same price.
I'd like to propose alternative thinking. The KFF is 20 points, you are buying a Nob with more wounds that can fix vehicles (est 13 points for tools) and even have a big choppa. The painboy is a nob with four wounds, a powerklaw, a chance to heal orkz, and a silly urty syringe and all this for 65 points.. I ask you, don't dismiss FnP as a 65 point tax.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dokz Toolz may well be estimated to be 15 to 20 points
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 05:18:02
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
2017/07/28 05:36:01
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
KFF doesn't help Nobz out as much as you think nor do Painboyz. I broke down the math a bit ago, but basically you need to make a lot of saves to justify the existence of the painboy and KFF and you won't make your points back most of the time. For starters the KFF is only good on AP-2 and better weapons on Nobz because they have a standard 4+ Save. So right off the bat most weapons you aren't going to be using that KFF on. Next, against AP-2 and better weapons you get that 5++ which is nice but you need to make about 8 to justify the KFF. After that you need to make about 7 6+FNP saves to justify the existence of the Painboy. So, lets break that down, in order to make 7 saves of 5++ you are most likely going to fail 14 times, 14 AP-2 wounds (usually D3 or 2+ damage each) will kill about 14 Nobz the 6+ FNP will maybe save 4ish of those since you get 1 for every wound lost. So you have justified the existence of the KFF but the Painboy will never be able to make his points back because he only has 6 models left to save, or 12 wounds. He is again likely to save 2 of those. So you are investing a rather huge number of points into a relatively small unit in the hope of making it across the field. Someone else mentioned earlier that you could take something like 120 more boyz for the same price.
Ammo Runtz, however, benefit extensively from the KFF. The runtz take all the multi wound fire while the Nobz with big choppa take the single wound stuff. The Killsaws don't take anything until everything else is dead. Being able to allocate wounds how you like is nice, and makes the squad less vulnerable to any particular weapon type. 120 Boyz don't kill tanks, but these Nobz murder them. Of course Boyz are way more durable, but you need the right tools to deal with Tough Multi-Wound stuff in Orks.
The Painboy also effects all 130 line troops most of the time due to the way I'm playing the game with tails stretching back to my command bunker to catch all the buffs. Compose the tail off Boyz squads with 6 or so Shoota Boyz and the tail of Nobz with ammo runtz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The 5 Killsaws 5 powa stabbas build is probably the way to go with the Nobz. That saves enough points to fill out the Boyz to 30 and get that Mek a big choppa.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 05:58:49
2017/07/28 06:33:17
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Rismonite wrote: I'd like to propose alternative thinking. The KFF is 20 points, you are buying a Nob with more wounds that can fix vehicles (est 13 points for tools) and even have a big choppa. The painboy is a nob with four wounds, a powerklaw, a chance to heal orkz, and a silly urty syringe and all this for 65 points.. I ask you, don't dismiss FnP as a 65 point tax.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dokz Toolz may well be estimated to be 15 to 20 points
That's an interesting point of view. However, keep in mind that it's way harder to use this single models because they're buried in a mass of boyz and if you get them to strike, you need some serious movement planning - especially in footslogging lists. They also lower the amount of damage the boyz deal simply because fewer boyz get to strike and can't move as freely as they could if there was no other squad in the way. This exact thing happened yesterday with my mech ork vs gk game where he screened draigo with 2 dreadknights and i had to choose who would be able to strike - a warboss or a bunch of boyz. Only 1 could fit in the gap (i'll post a short batrep later).
Anywayz, i don't see why would you want a regular footslogging painboy over Grotsnik.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 06:33:45
2017/07/28 09:33:48
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Rismonite wrote: I'd like to propose alternative thinking. The KFF is 20 points, you are buying a Nob with more wounds that can fix vehicles (est 13 points for tools) and even have a big choppa. The painboy is a nob with four wounds, a powerklaw, a chance to heal orkz, and a silly urty syringe and all this for 65 points.. I ask you, don't dismiss FnP as a 65 point tax.
Yes, but Nobz are not 55 points a piece. Alternatively you can think of a ten boy squad as a Big Mek without tools, but with 6 extra wounds and thirty extra attacks.
I don't think that painboys or big meks are useless, but they are expensive, and the situation really has to be favourable for them to add more durability to an army than just adding 10-12 more boyz. I think the best way for a painboy to make his points back is to heal Ghazz.
Hi, I have a question about the German ETC List.
I start a new Ork Army und like this list because of the many different Models. But I can’t see witch Hero goes where and what the general gameplay looks like. Can you give me your opinion please?
Orks: Supreme Command Detachment - 186 Punkte
*************** 3 HQ ***************
Wyrdboy da Jump
- - - > 62 Punkte
Wyrdboy da Jump
- - - > 62 Punkte
Wyrdboy da Jump
- - - > 62 Punkte
Orks: Spearhead Detachment - 623 Punkte
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Big Mek
+ Kustom force field, Big choppa -> 29 Pkt.
- - - > 84 Punkte
*************** 3 Heavy Support ***************
Battlewagon, 3 x Big shoota
- - - > 179 Punkte
Battlewagon, Deff rolla, 'Ard Case
- - - > 180 Punkte
Battlewagon, Deff rolla, 'Ard Case
- - - > 180 Punkte
bosswoodfox wrote: I agree with that list mostly, except trade the Nobz squads for more boyz.
Anything shooty is going to keep the nobz from making combat and you can buy 120 more boyz instead of those 20 nobz.
Looks fun though, less spammy than massed boyz and I would like to try it.
The Nobz get babied with KFF, Painboy, Boy Bubble Wrap of at least 3 inches on all sides to prevent rapid fire plasma, and take priority in Da Jump line if there is an armored target close enough to the main blob. If you take all single wound fire on Big Choppa Nobz and all multi wound fire on Runtz, they still might not make it, but they are the best shot we have at removing armor. If they do get the charge, the Nobz remove an Imperial Knight from the table. It's possible that a few of those Nobz with Big Choppa should have Powa Stabbas to serve as ablative wounds, maybe even all of them. That would up the Boyz count by 12, which fills out the 29 squads and gives you a unit of 10 to act as the back of the formation.
I like it, may be better against some armies than boyz horde, maybe less good against some. But looks fun and more diverse, and also plenty good... just different.
Typhus expects that every zombie will do his duty
2017/07/28 13:55:13
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Asked this question a while back but don't think it was answered...it kinda determines if i go with bikerboss or Zagstrukk for my 2x30 stormboys:
"To reduce casualties, can I advance and charge stormboyz using a nearby warboss' 'Waaagh' rule, instead of using the stormboyz 'Full throttle' rule? Given that both rules do the same thing I assume you can choose which applies.. "
If my reasoning above is actually correct, then I feel like the warboss D3 casualties from breakin 'eads trumps the fearless but 1/6 casualties from full throttle with Zag..
2017/07/28 16:15:18
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Hi gits, been on a break and finally getting around to working on a 2000 point list again. Playing a freebooter themed army and wanting to make it not so easy to beat its boring, thinking it can be semi competitive at best. Mid tier, whatever! Really want to keep it fully mechanized for theme (plus easy to move/play). I played a night goblin horde in fantasy and would prefer to play low model count/easy to move army. In 5th it was nice to play manz + nob bikers or nob squads, could be competitive and keep model count low + fully mechanized. I caved and in tournaments would bring MSU 5 man loota squads that would go to ground in cover whenever fired upon and I don't want to do that really. Prefer to keep them on about for mobility and protection from small arms fire. Afraid of using a trukk with its frail nature even.
The only piratey models by default are the flash gits, but the rest of my nobs manz boys etc are pirate'd up with bits and gs.
Zard will be a mini boat with sail, same for kff mek on bike.
I wanted to keep the entire list low model count / nob themed while still getting battalion CP points and have enough boys to do a few things when needed.
Wagons/trukk are pirate ships but can swap one wagon to a kill tank, or trukk to big trakk based on suggestions.
I think I can easily fit everything under one KFF but loota trukk will get left behind as rest push forward together.
Does a fully mechanized list like this stand a chance at being semi competitive? I had tried an iteration before, posted in army list forum. It had 2 wagons, a big trakk, and kill tank (no jet). Contents of each transport was a bit diff. Lost hard in one test game I played vs gun drone+commander spam, 20 melt as a turn, ouch. My list did not include the KFF bike which I see as mandatory for speed freak lists now.
Anywho the list:
Battalion detachment
Zardsnark FW biker boss
Weird boy
Waaagh banner nob
3 mega nobs PK + kustom shootas (have old metal ones built and painted as such or else would double kill saw em all)
5 nobs + 5 ammo runts (1 kill saw, 2 big choppa, 2 choppa + slugga)
9 boys BC nob shootas
9 boys PK nob slugga/choppa
11 boys bc nob slugga n choppa
Dakkkajet 4 supa shootas
Spearhead detachment
Big mek bike KFF killsaw
Trukk w/ big shoota and wrecking ball
Flash gits x5 + 5 runts
Loota x10
Battle wagon #1 with deff rolla + ard case
Battle wagon #2 with deff rolla + ard case
Battlewagon #3 with one big shoota
Da plan:
Deploy 3 wagons wide with trukk sideways behind them
Hide zardsnark and mek on bike with KFF behind wagons in front of trukk sideways also. Everything should be in KFF T1 aside from jet on a flank.
3 wagons push forward together, lootas stay put but are mobile if need to be.
Wagon #1 with hard case contain squad of 9 slugga boys with PK nob. It also contains 5 nobs + 5 ammo runts (1 saw, 2 bc)
Wagon #2 has 11 boys + bc nob, weird boy, banner nob, 3
MANz Wagon #3 contains 5 flash gits, 5 ammo runts. And squad of 9 shoota boys plus BC nob
Loota ride in trukk behind wagons
Jet flies around and shoots stuff
Bike boss and KFF move with wagons until they can charge with them
Wish I could add some kannons to the wagons for theme, or a supa kannon somewhere but just can't find the points. Not really point efficient for what they do I'm afraid
How are you guys running speed freaks? Granted I have dakka boats + wagon rush + bike chars + flyer so it's a bit dif. Trying to make what I have work opposed to buying or building new models. Have a couple trukks I can finish up also instead of a wagon, but think wagons are more durable with t8 are case etc to ferry melee units
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 16:21:07
Levski wrote: Asked this question a while back but don't think it was answered...it kinda determines if i go with bikerboss or Zagstrukk for my 2x30 stormboys:
"To reduce casualties, can I advance and charge stormboyz using a nearby warboss' 'Waaagh' rule, instead of using the stormboyz 'Full throttle' rule? Given that both rules do the same thing I assume you can choose which applies.. "
If my reasoning above is actually correct, then I feel like the warboss D3 casualties from breakin 'eads trumps the fearless but 1/6 casualties from full throttle with Zag..
Rules as written ... No
and its been asked during the GWfaq and has not been answered, but it doesn't hurt to keep asking.
2017/07/28 20:15:09
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
So this gives me 7 drops total for an army of 2000 points. Do you guys think that seems small enough to give me a good shot at finishing deployment first against most armies?
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
Bear in mind that Power Klaws on Nobs are S10 as opposed to a Captain's S8
I could see Power Klaws dropping - but not as much.
I guess you could argue that Captains hit on 3+ with a reroll from Rites of Battle and potential Chapter Master though.
Wargear cost is univeral for army lists, it's not based on stats. Ie a model with 2 attacks pays the same for a powerfists as a model with 6 attacks. Or a model with BS5+ pays the same for a rokkit as a model with BS4+.
So not the Strength difference isn't a valid reason, as that is already covered in the points for the models stats.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 21:18:19
2017/07/28 21:34:09
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
TedNugent wrote: From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.
For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?
If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.
Bear in mind that Power Klaws on Nobs are S10 as opposed to a Captain's S8
I could see Power Klaws dropping - but not as much.
I guess you could argue that Captains hit on 3+ with a reroll from Rites of Battle and potential Chapter Master though.
Wargear cost is univeral for army lists, it's not based on stats. Ie a model with 2 attacks pays the same for a powerfists as a model with 6 attacks. Or a model with BS5+ pays the same for a rokkit as a model with BS4+.
So not the Strength difference isn't a valid reason, as that is already covered in the points for the models stats.
.
This is ultimately why this method of assigning universal points values is flawed. A rokkit on a boy/vehicle is nowhere near as valuable as a rokkit on a busta or grot. Going from .33 to .5 is a 50% increase in effectiveness. Its absurd.
2017/07/28 21:42:31
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Dr.Duck wrote: Powerfist points drop means roughly a 20% points reduction for terminators. Hopefull we can see something similar.
If Meganobz got 20% cheaper they would then only be over priced instead of terribly over priced
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there isn't much of a difference between S8 and S10 except Vs T5 and T8...that is it. It is nowhere near worth 5pts they originally charged, and now its apparently 13pts more then a PF.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 21:44:31
Dr.Duck wrote: Powerfist points drop means roughly a 20% points reduction for terminators. Hopefull we can see something similar.
If Meganobz got 20% cheaper they would then only be over priced instead of terribly over priced
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there isn't much of a difference between S8 and S10 except Vs T5 and T8...that is it. It is nowhere near worth 5pts they originally charged, and now its apparently 13pts more then a PF.
Yes the difference between S8 and S10 is not super noticeable. however when 1 is twice as expensive as another you have another issue. Also before there is not a huge reason to put a fist on a sergeant especially when that sgt only has 2 attacks. at 12 points you might be able to rationalize it. Nobs only currently getting one more attack over the sgt and the fist is double the pts. So we can expect a points drop. Id guess maybe 16 points. That would put naked mega nobs at like 45 pts. Question is how much cheaper do saws get cause they will tend to see more play on meganobs and reganobs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 21:59:01
2017/07/28 22:05:17
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.
But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 22:08:24
