Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
From the space marine codex news thread, it says that power fists went down 8 points.

For those of you changing an masse to big choppas - how does that 17 point fist compare to the big choppas if the update carries over to the ork codex once it drops?

If Powerfists drop 8 points then Powerklaws need to drop 13.

Bear in mind that Power Klaws on Nobs are S10 as opposed to a Captain's S8

I could see Power Klaws dropping - but not as much.

I guess you could argue that Captains hit on 3+ with a reroll from Rites of Battle and potential Chapter Master though.

Wargear cost is univeral for army lists, it's not based on stats. Ie a model with 2 attacks pays the same for a powerfists as a model with 6 attacks. Or a model with BS5+ pays the same for a rokkit as a model with BS4+.

So not the Strength difference isn't a valid reason, as that is already covered in the points for the models stats.

.
This is ultimately why this method of assigning universal points values is flawed. A rokkit on a boy/vehicle is nowhere near as valuable as a rokkit on a busta or grot. Going from .33 to .5 is a 50% increase in effectiveness. Its absurd.

I agree with you but GW has decided this edition to keep weapons and costs separate from dataslate s, so changing costs changes cost for all units that can take them. With that in kind if a SM sgt with 2 attacks pays the same points for a powerfists as a chapter master with 6 attacks within the current system the cost for other armies should be similar.

On another note, I would like to hear from people here: What is the upper bound on the range, where you feel confident in charging a rhino (with boyz and, say, with assistance from a bike) and getting the full 2-rank wraparound thus killing both transport and passengers in one go?

pismakron wrote:
The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.

But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.

So against something that is rarely if ever brought the difference is huge, and everywhere else is negligible except as stated in T5 and T8. And again we point out that they do the exact same thing and the points cost for those units should have been taken into account.

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.

But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.

So against something that is rarely if ever brought the difference is huge, and everywhere else is negligible except as stated in T5 and T8. And again we point out that they do the exact same thing and the points cost for those units should have been taken into account.

Yes, I think so. A powerklaw is pretty much a powerfist in this edition, except perhaps on a warboss

pismakron wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.

But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.

So against something that is rarely if ever brought the difference is huge, and everywhere else is negligible except as stated in T5 and T8. And again we point out that they do the exact same thing and the points cost for those units should have been taken into account.

Yes, I think so. A powerklaw is pretty much a powerfist in this edition, except perhaps on a warboss

Doesnt matter. Most things that are T8 fists are that good against anyway. SM player should be taking Hammers over fists if the goal is to kill stuff.

Are there any competitive builds other than a Green Tide horde?

Also, how's our anti-tank looking nowadays? Expensive Tankbustas+PKs still the go-to's?

I'm not too sure why I'm asking, hah - until the codex comes out, not much has changed. Still, hoping for something other than Green Tide (I love shooty orks and vehicles :p, shame other armies output more dakka at better range/accuracy... talking more about volume of fire then efficacy).

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The difference between S8 and S10 is huge....when attacking fortifications.

But I would love to see a price reduction on Klaws. As of right now they can only rarely compete with Big Choppas. And even when they can, you end up getting a killsaw instead.

So against something that is rarely if ever brought the difference is huge, and everywhere else is negligible except as stated in T5 and T8. And again we point out that they do the exact same thing and the points cost for those units should have been taken into account.

There's a lot of stuff with T8: land raiders, hunters, stalkers, vindicators, battlewagons with 'ard case, monoliths, obelisks, wraitknights, leman russes, baneblades, imperial knights, tervigons, exocrines, tyrannofexes... most of these units are also quite popular. And T5 is very common (all DE transports are T5 for example and I tipycally use 5-7), so the difference between S8 and S10 is significant. Not huge of course but there's actually a difference.

If the SM codex is anything to go by, the Klaws will get a nice pricereduction while killsaws will remain where they are, just as chainfists are now nearly twice as expensive as powerfists. There will be a lot of cutting and reglueing of weapons it seems.

pismakron wrote:
If the SM codex is anything to go by, the Klaws will get a nice pricereduction while killsaws will remain where they are, just as chainfists are now nearly twice as expensive as powerfists. There will be a lot of cutting and reglueing of weapons it seems.

Yeah, really curious to see where they go with the Ork codex - I know not to get my hopes up, but... I'm hoping they've learned their lessons (or at least, something positive), and were able to use the various feedback threads around the web/tournament results to bring the lesser powered units up.

I'd really just like to have a reason to bring all the cool units of our codex (and stand a chance with them!), aside from pure fluff reasons (which is the most important anyways, but, :p).

Orks need more dakka in their guns! Its not about expected results, its about rolling lots of dice! I'm getting discouraged when I see Space Marine tanks outputting more voluminous amounts of firepower, at BS3+, farther range, and better strength in general.

Let me roll buckets o' dice again for shooting (we got melee covered, but can always use more there too )! :dakka: :dakka: :dakka: Its not about actually hitting things, just rollings tons of dice in general.

That said, Dakka Jets are right shooty this edition - they put the hurt out on whatever they shoot at.

fe40k wrote:
Are there any competitive builds other than a Green Tide horde?

Also, how's our anti-tank looking nowadays? Expensive Tankbustas+PKs still the go-to's?

I'm not too sure why I'm asking, hah - until the codex comes out, not much has changed. Still, hoping for something other than Green Tide (I love shooty orks and vehicles :p, shame other armies output more dakka at better range/accuracy... talking more about volume of fire then efficacy).

Sure you can still go for shooty orks or mechanized orks.
Need a bit more brainwork to make them work but there are options outside tide with wyrdboys and character buffs.

For antitank bazookas work fine. Can shoot more often, do 3 damage, split fire and BS doesn`t matter when you bring enough dices.
Since vehicles have much more LP you need to combine units to kill one or just weaken them to reduce BS etc.
But there is a lot stuff that can hurt tanks, basicly everything but S4 boys vs T8 vehicles will do the job.
Just don`t expect to kill 1 tank with 1 unit in 1 turn.
Unless you bring a full mob nobs with buffs, they will do the job like they did before.

If Power Klaws do drop by 8 points then I'll have 16 points spare for my 1k list, so that easily gives my Bad Moons Warboss a Kombi Rokkit (because it's fluffy and not at all efficient when I've got Killa Kans gagging for Rokkit Launchas.).

kombie rokits are 20 pts right?
and ill second the remodeling away from power klaws to BC, (Did 12 just last month) mainly that 4+/2+ with D3! :( ; is not as "consistent" as 3+/3+ flat 2. Even against the T8 a few still roll the 5+ and deal 2 each not just 1 dmg 33% of the time; also, kill-saws do this much better for 3 points more. Even with a point reduction, I don't think I would take the klaws competitively...

kombie rokits are 20 pts right?
and ill second the remodeling away from power klaws to BC, (Did 12 just last month) mainly that 4+/2+ with D3! :( ; is not as "consistent" as 3+/3+ flat 2. Even against the T8 a few still roll the 5+ and deal 2 each not just 1 dmg 33% of the time; also, kill-saws do this much better for 3 points more. Even with a point reduction, I don't think I would take the klaws competitively...

Yes 20 points.

I stay with the claw.
All the big choppas gonna be remodelled with the codex when the claw is weapon no 1 again.^^
With all the buffs they are still pretty decent.

Klaws have been fine. If they drop down to 12 points, they'll be awesome. Klaws are better on Orks than Fists are on Marines though, so I don't expect their points to drop as dramatically. The AP just matters so much, and the strength bonus is a big deal against quite a few targets. Killsaws are better than Klaws, but most units that want Klaws can't take 'em. Big Choppas are more cost effective in terms of points, but I've found the AP (and the strength in some cases) to be so important that it's well worth the additional cost.

I prefer Klaws usually on Choppas Squads.

For Shoota Squads I take Big Choppas. Gives them a bit more oomph if they find CC. With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.

 Frozocrone wrote:
With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.

Um, well ...ya. Kinda goes without saying, no?

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.

Um, well ...ya. Kinda goes without saying, no?

Yeah, so why take them on shooty squads?

 Frozocrone wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.

Um, well ...ya. Kinda goes without saying, no?

Yeah, so why take them on shooty squads?

Because a shooty squad is still fething terrible at shooting and still does better in CC then in Ranged combat. Not to mention the extreme short range of our basic gunz so you will either be in charge ranged on their turn or damn close to it.

Also on a related note to PKs dropping in price drastically (fingers crossed). Rokkitz need a HUGE points reduction. The only unit that makes the Rokkit remotely close to correctly priced is Tankbustas and even then it is still over priced. Last edition I could take a Battlewagon and put 4 rokkitz on it for 20pts, I never expected it to do much because usually 3 would miss and 1 still had a 1/6 chance to fail to wound or against vehicles a 1/3rd+ chance to not glance/penetrate. This edition....48pts for 4 rokkitz, who the hell is going to pay that? I mean I don't even want to put Big shootas for 6pts on the damned things. Whomever wrote our codex DRASTICALLY over priced all of our ranged weaponry...actually ALL of our weapons.

Would it really be OP to make Rokkitz 5pts each again and Big shootas 2-3pts? Keeping in mind Tankbustas receive a big increase in base cost to compensate?

SemperMortis wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.

Um, well ...ya. Kinda goes without saying, no?

Yeah, so why take them on shooty squads?

Because a shooty squad is still fething terrible at shooting and still does better in CC then in Ranged combat. Not to mention the extreme short range of our basic gunz so you will either be in charge ranged on their turn or damn close to it.

Also on a related note to PKs dropping in price drastically (fingers crossed). Rokkitz need a HUGE points reduction. The only unit that makes the Rokkit remotely close to correctly priced is Tankbustas and even then it is still over priced. Last edition I could take a Battlewagon and put 4 rokkitz on it for 20pts, I never expected it to do much because usually 3 would miss and 1 still had a 1/6 chance to fail to wound or against vehicles a 1/3rd+ chance to not glance/penetrate. This edition....48pts for 4 rokkitz, who the hell is going to pay that? I mean I don't even want to put Big shootas for 6pts on the damned things. Whomever wrote our codex DRASTICALLY over priced all of our ranged weaponry...actually ALL of our weapons.

Would it really be OP to make Rokkitz 5pts each again and Big shootas 2-3pts? Keeping in mind Tankbustas receive a big increase in base cost to compensate?

I don't think it would be op, but I don't think it would solve Orks shooty deficiency. Rokkits could be free, but they would still be inefficient on a unit that advances most turns and spends the rest in close combat. A 10 boy squad with a rokkit, is still a 60 point tax on the rokkit, if the squad does not engage the enemy and start chopping. And Orks would still suffer disproportionately whenever a -1 to hit is in play.

I still think that Orks best solution to our challenges is to simply pay maelstrom and hope for a codex buff. A personal hope of mine is cheaper Klaws and that the KFF starts working like other aura buffs. Another solution would be for GW to replace the 'eadbanger power with something useful for creating moar dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I don't think that 48 points for four rokkits on a battlewagon is all that expensive. Four rokkits on a battlewagon will do the same damage as 2.4 tankbustas (against vehicles) or 2.6 kannonz and will be more survivable than either. The real problem with rokkits on the battlewagon us that the deffrolla is such an awesome auto-include, and if your battlewagon spends 4 turns grinding away in close combat, then rokkits will be a waste no matter their price. Again, the problem with Ork rokkits is not their price, but that they can only be taken on stuff that is overcosted (buggies), needs to advance and fight (rollawaggons, Deff dreads, Boyz, gorkanauts) or tankbustas.

Big Shoota would be pretty good for six points if the mob wasn't advancing all the time. Right now it seems far better to run full tilt at the enemy most of the time, but maybe the codex will give us stratagems that make moving a little slower and shooting worth it.

I found out the other day that it isn't that hard for a warboss to get left in the dust what with all the pile-in moves and consolidating after winning a combat. The boyz can really move across the table, and can end up outside of the Warboss' buff range. The stratagem that makes them immune to battleshock really comes in handy then.

Slugga Boyz seem really good. I don't think they're broken, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did something like give choppas a cost of one point.

I still haven't had any luck with Big Gunz, but I think that it's mostly been bad rolling. I had three kannons shooting at tanks for five turns, and they didn't inflict a single wound. The grots that I brought to bubblewrap them, on the other hand, actually managed to inflict a wound on a tank.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
With Klaws I feel like I need to get them in combat to justify the price increase.

Um, well ...ya. Kinda goes without saying, no?

Yeah, so why take them on shooty squads?

Because a shooty squad is still fething terrible at shooting and still does better in CC then in Ranged combat. Not to mention the extreme short range of our basic gunz so you will either be in charge ranged on their turn or damn close to it.

Also on a related note to PKs dropping in price drastically (fingers crossed). Rokkitz need a HUGE points reduction. The only unit that makes the Rokkit remotely close to correctly priced is Tankbustas and even then it is still over priced. Last edition I could take a Battlewagon and put 4 rokkitz on it for 20pts, I never expected it to do much because usually 3 would miss and 1 still had a 1/6 chance to fail to wound or against vehicles a 1/3rd+ chance to not glance/penetrate. This edition....48pts for 4 rokkitz, who the hell is going to pay that? I mean I don't even want to put Big shootas for 6pts on the damned things. Whomever wrote our codex DRASTICALLY over priced all of our ranged weaponry...actually ALL of our weapons.

Would it really be OP to make Rokkitz 5pts each again and Big shootas 2-3pts? Keeping in mind Tankbustas receive a big increase in base cost to compensate?

I agree, and not only some units like tankbustas are more expensive now, but also their transports, which are mandatory, are now way more expensive than before. Trukks jumped from 35 point including a rokkit launcha to 82 with just a big shoota, BWs from 120 to 167, losing the free rokkit too. Orks weapons should be cheaper, we shoot with bs2 or bs3 after all and we lack super killy weapons anyway. We don't have any lascannon or plasma gun equivalent for example, s9-10 weapons never existed for orks, unless you consider the stompa, which is a shame. Some melta equivalent for tankbustas would be nice too, maybe bomb squigs should receive the reroll on their D6 damage if they're within half range.

pismakron wrote:


I don't think it would be op, but I don't think it would solve Orks shooty deficiency. Rokkits could be free, but they would still be inefficient on a unit that advances most turns and spends the rest in close combat. A 10 boy squad with a rokkit, is still a 60 point tax on the rokkit, if the squad does not engage the enemy and start chopping. And Orks would still suffer disproportionately whenever a -1 to hit is in play.

I still think that Orks best solution to our challenges is to simply pay maelstrom and hope for a codex buff. A personal hope of mine is cheaper Klaws and that the KFF starts working like other aura buffs. Another solution would be for GW to replace the 'eadbanger power with something useful for creating moar dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I don't think that 48 points for four rokkits on a battlewagon is all that expensive. Four rokkits on a battlewagon will do the same damage as 2.4 tankbustas (against vehicles) or 2.6 kannonz and will be more survivable than either. The real problem with rokkits on the battlewagon us that the deffrolla is such an awesome auto-include, and if your battlewagon spends 4 turns grinding away in close combat, then rokkits will be a waste no matter their price. Again, the problem with Ork rokkits is not their price, but that they can only be taken on stuff that is overcosted (buggies), needs to advance and fight (rollawaggons, Deff dreads, Boyz, gorkanauts) or tankbustas.

48pts for 4 Rokkitz is horribly priced. 2 Tankbustas by themselves are significantly superior to 4 Rokkitz on a Wagon because they get rerolls to hit and cost a lot less then the 4 rokkitz, especially on a wagon. In a game where 2,000pts is the new common game type, 48pts is basically 2.4% of your entire army list, that doesn't sound like a lot but its compounded across the board with sub-optimal shooting. I think Rokkitz should go back to 5pts each and 10pts for duel rokkitz, I also think big shootas should be 2-3pts not 6. Think of it this way, a Deff Kopta costs 55pts without weapons(already over priced by about 10-15pts. You add on massively over priced Rokkitz and poof you have an unusable unit. IF and this is a big IF, GW correctly priced Rokkitz and gave the Kopta a small points reduction of 5pts you would be looking at a Deff Kopta with 2 Rokkit shots costing 60pts instead of the current cost of 83.

Now I definitely partially agree with your premise that all the platforms that can take rokkitz are horribly over priced, but Rokkitz are a joke for how over priced they are now. Rokkitz used to be free for anything that could take a big shoota, the Trukk already factored in the cost of the big shoota into its 30pts price tag, and you could take a Rokkit for free, The Deff Koptas were the same, with TL Big shootas already priced and TL Rokkitz being free, and keep in mind that Koptas back in 7th weren't taken because they were so terrible except as fast objective holders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:


I agree, and not only some units like tankbustas are more expensive now, but also their transports, which are mandatory, are now way more expensive than before. Trukks jumped from 35 point including a rokkit launcha to 82 with just a big shoota, BWs from 120 to 167, losing the free rokkit too. Orks weapons should be cheaper, we shoot with bs2 or bs3 after all and we lack super killy weapons anyway. We don't have any lascannon or plasma gun equivalent for example, s9-10 weapons never existed for orks, unless you consider the stompa, which is a shame. Some melta equivalent for tankbustas would be nice too, maybe bomb squigs should receive the reroll on their D6 damage if they're within half range.

Exactly, we are paying ridiculous prices for weapons that are worse then imperium equivalents. The Rokkit is very similar to the Missile launcher because a Krak missile has the same profile as a Rokkit except it has double the range and D6 damage. The Missile Launcher costs twice as much but the difference is that it has 2 fire modes, better damage output, twice the range and gets taken on a infantry model that is significantly more durable....OHH and it hits 2/3rds of the time compared to our 1/3rd of the time, and since we are advancing constantly to get in range it actually hits 1/6th of the time.

5pts is a more realistic price for the Rokkit, GW just forgot how to price orkz with this reboot and we are suffering for it.

DOOM AND GLOOM TIME: Yeah, even with our new codex I doubt GW will realize how tremendous their feth up was and will give us a moderate price cut on some units and will probably nerf one of our moderately useful units into the ground to compensate for giving us somewhat useful shooting. But thats just me speaking from years and years of experience of GW dropping codex's and supplements on orkz trying to un-nerf their damage.

I agree. In the past rokkits were 10 points and were already considered a waste of points on most platforms before the current codex dropped them to 5, how did they think they were suddenly worth 12 points?

I honestly prefer 3 damage over d6 though. Due to the nature of our shooting, you will often get only a few rokkits to actually do damage, I prefer three rokkit doing 9 damage (killing most vehicles and characters) over doing 3d6 damage which has a decent chance of leaving your target alive.
Even for single targets, a rokkit is guaranteed to kill centurion, while a missle launcher still has a 1/3 chance to leave it alive.

Considering how much trouble we need to go through to get even a single rokkit to wound, I really prefer a little reliability for the damage value.

The proper solution is probably dropping rokkits by 7 points and putting those points onto the tankbusta basic models.

I agree, though I would probably make it 7pts off Rokkitz (18 from Twin Rokkitz) and only tack on 4-5pts to Tank Bustas.

Don't forget that the huge price of rokkits also makes buggies and koptas almost useless. We rely on koptas only for their bomb, no one is going to equip them with rokkits anymore, which is a shame considering how much a single kopta costs.

About the rokkits' damage I don't know, the average of a D6 is 3.5 which is higher than the flat 3 rokkits have, especially if you have multiple shots.

I would have preferred an AP-3 rather than a D6 damage though, and considering our crappy BS and the short range ork rokkits have I think we deserved a better AP than imperial missiles.

 Blackie wrote:
Don't forget that the huge price of rokkits also makes buggies and koptas almost useless. We rely on koptas only for their bomb, no one is going to equip them with rokkits anymore, which is a shame considering how much a single kopta costs.

About the rokkits' damage I don't know, the average of a D6 is 3.5 which is higher than the flat 3 rokkits have, especially if you have multiple shots.

I would have preferred an AP-3 rather than a D6 damage though, and considering our crappy BS and the short range ork rokkits have I think we deserved a better AP than imperial missiles.

Exactly. How many of our units last edition relied upon Rokkitz to be remotely useful? and when I say remotely useful I mean they might get seen one out of 10 games but never in a competitive environment. Koptas, Buggies, Kanz. By raising the prices of all these units and then raising the cost of rokkit 140% you have effectively killed these units to the point where they are ignored.

I don't think Rokkits on anything not tank Bustas is really worth the points.
For my self I prefer shoota boys with just shootas. I also think KMB's are worth the risk for the points so I've put 3 on Deff Koptas, all are solo in my army and 6 on my Old Killa Kans.
(60 point Kans.)
My new Kans have a mix of new weapons. Frankly the more likely it is to hit the more I like the risk but solo Deff Koptas can at least put the KMB closer to what I want to shoot in support of a larger Goal. I'm not seeing enough deviation with Rokkits and KMB's to "justify" spending more points.
Probably Big Shootas and Grot Zookas will be better on Kans. But I have those so no big deal.
Marines in the open are still Marines in the open where basic Shootas and even Big Shootas are concerned. Same Same.
Shoota Boys are just cheaper now.
I'm not excited about power Klaws much now, Any thing that can take a lot of them might think about it but a Single Klaw on a Nob just seems less of a good idea to me. I'm actually thinking a lot of my Boss Nobs will just use choppas for the extra attacks and save me a few points.
I really wish there was an option to buy More Big Shootas in Boys mobs, or just Mobs of Big Shootas. Just for the ST5 36" range. Oh well, I'll be looking at my War trakks next as a Big Shoota go too and see how that goes.

Can stormboyz move over terrain and models in the charge phase?

Yes. A charge move is a move, and units that can fly can ignore terrain and models when doing so.

Rokkits at 3 damage are terrible...

A missiles launcher in comparison:

33% chance: 1-2 damage (33-66% minus normal damage)
17% chance: 3 damage
50% chance: 4-6 damage (33-100% plus damage)

I'll take a 67% chance for same, or up double, damage any day.

D6s shred vehicles; 3 damage rokkits don't even cleanly kill most vehicles - there's a lot of ~10 wound vehicles, which requires 4 rokkits, minimum (versus 2 missile minimum).

If anything, missiles should be 3 flat, and rokkits should be d6 - at this point, what's a little more randomness for our shooting anyways.

Also, rip buggies.

It,doesn't matter though, orks are no longer any kind of army other than "horde+melee"; everything else got gutted beyond reason. See: shooting, vehicles.

Im just tired that other armies get far more volume of shots (regardless of expected damage) than orks, at better accuracy, range, and strength. See: Repulsor tank - 20 s5 ap-1, 5d6+3 s4 ap? = for 305 points. Oh. And fly too, so it can disengage and keep dakka.

I really loved the idea of mechanized orks' but they don't have any battle tanks, or any good vehicles really. Battle wagon is ok for a 200 point land raider, but it has no guns; so... trucks are pointless, too expensive and too easy to kill (especially compared to rhinos).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My favorite thing about bomb squids is that they're just Missile Launchers that hit on a 2+ (RR'd though, to be fair); everyone goes crazy for them, yet don't seem to realize that SM devestators get these by default (3+ coupled with +1 from cherum).

Add in a captain to reroll 1's, or gulliman to reroll everything... and ever SM dev is a bomb squig, at better range and can target air units.