Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)

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**Breng77**

SemperMortis wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Is anyone else slightly annoyed that everyone gets all these Fething reroll mechanics and we as a CC army get +1WS. Would it have been too much to ask for the Waaagh Banner to let us reroll failed wound rolls?

Not really I'm not in favor of orks re-rolling close combat stuff because of how many dice rolls that is, so for game speed it would be bad. What I would like is a re-roll to hit in shooting, or even the banner giving just straight +1 to hit (not just in the fight phase).

It would be incredible though vs tough opponents. 30 boyz without any other buffs against a Land Raider would be putting out 120 attacks, 80 Hits and then about 12 wounds on the first batch and then another 11 on the second batch, it would actually make boyz really competitive and make the fluff work. Yeah they will die in droves but god help you if they ever get into CC with those buffs.

Sure it would be great for boyz, I just don't think it would be great for the game to be re-rolling 60 dice on a regular basis. Compared to the +1 to hit, you end up with 7 fewer wounds (17 to 24), but honestly of all the things that need buffing in our book boyz aren't one of them. I'd rather see buffs to our other units.

**CaptainCarrots**

SemperMortis wrote:
CaptainCarrots wrote:
What are people's thoughts about fielding an all-in-your-face-turn-1 list with meka dreads and stormboyz?

Stormboyz seem to be a really strong (and versatile) unit, which is supported by their performance at BAO. And they have a threat range of 12+3d6", with the option of re-rolling charges.
And then meka dreads seem to be our best-costed dreadnought option. And they have the option of taking mega-chargas, which gives them a 16+2d6" threat range, with the option of re-rolling charges.

The core of the list that I've been tinkering around with looks like this:
Stormboyz, Stormboy Nobs w/ PKs (many)
Meka-dreads with Mega Charga, Rippa Klaw, and Rattler Kannon (3+)
Zhadsnark (1)
Ork Big Mek on Bike with Kustom Forcefield (2)
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump (1)
Boss Nob with Waaagh Banner (1)

The general strategy is to either go balls-to-the-wall aiming for a first-turn charge with as many units as possible (if your opponent happens to deploy close), or holding off on using the mega-chargas until turn 2 to all-but-guarantee that your meka-dreads reach close combat alongside (hopefully) Zhad and the stormboyz. Big Meks on Bikes are there to provide your army with a little bit of hardiness via KFFs and then also to hang out near the dreads once they reach combat to perform repairs. I think they're better platforms for the KFF than the dreads because (1) they're characters, and thus can't be shot at under most circumstances, and (2) equipping them with the KFF frees up your dreads to take chargas. Weirdboy is mainly there to "jump" the boss nob into range of all of your units once they hit the enemy lines, making everyone hit on 2s (although I suppose he could also jump zhad or units of stormboyz if needed).

Then, as far as additions go, I was trying to decide between:
(1) Kommandos (and maybe Snikrot?), for objective-grabbing and possible assaults out of deepstrike at the same time everything else hits the enemy lines
(2) Dakkajets or Lootas, for turn 1 supporting dakka
(3) Mob of 30 ork boyz (incl. nob w/ PK) as a second target for "da jump"
(4) Zagstrukk, for his fearless aura
(5) Ghazghkull, for his general combat badassery and +1 attack buff for the stormboyz
(6) other armored units, like kanz or a kill tank to maximize multi-wound, high-toughness target saturation, which might help the meka dreads to live a bit longer
or (7) just more stormboyz

What do you gits fink?

It is a very solid idea, the only negatives I can construct would be if your opponent has common sense and deploys back then you are going to be facing a 24in no mans land and then however far back he deployed. So a Turn 1 assault is unlikely. And if you play against a Girlyman gunline you can expect him to be turtled up in a corner of the map and be pretty heavy on dakka. But in general its a great idea, it just won't do that well against the current power builds like IG conscript spam, Daemon spam and Girlyman gunline.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I didn't follow much of the BAO coverage so I wonder how John McCool fought against those kinds of lists with his stormboyz + gargantuan squiggoth list. I feel like functionally they're very similar ideas.

**Frozocrone**

pismakron wrote:
koooaei wrote:
It's a matter of preference. I thinkg we can all agree that a banner is ok but not mandatory. The decisive factor for me was the need to bunch up and always keep distance. I like more freedom.

Yes, but really that is a problem with the KFF as much as with anything else. The KFF really slows down the movement phase.

Depends. I'm itching to try a Big Mek next to 3 Kans and a Dread. Far easier to navigate than 30+ Boyz.

**gungo**

Considering all troops aka boys now have objective secured as per the chapter approved community page post.
There is even less reason not to take boys as that is a significant boost to them.
I just don't see any reason to play any other list competitively even McCool stormboys list is at a disadvantage now to boy horde list.

**SemperMortis**

Kallius wrote:
Hey everyone!

Recently returning to the hobby and picked up the Start Collecting box and the Index for Orks but they've sent out the miniatures and sent the other Xenos index.

Im wondering if anyone could give me a guide on a decent way to optimize the Boyz, Nobz and Deff Dread. I understand it obviously varies but im wondering if theres a kind of go to/safe bet with War Gear. I cant wait to get going.

Thanks

Until our codex comes out the current best build is to get more boyz and put your dread on the shelf. Nobz can be decent but they need a transport or a weirdboy. If you would like advice on purchases I would be glad to help as would others im sure.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frozocrone wrote:
pismakron wrote:
koooaei wrote:
It's a matter of preference. I thinkg we can all agree that a banner is ok but not mandatory. The decisive factor for me was the need to bunch up and always keep distance. I like more freedom.

Yes, but really that is a problem with the KFF as much as with anything else. The KFF really slows down the movement phase.

Depends. I'm itching to try a Big Mek next to 3 Kans and a Dread. Far easier to navigate than 30+ Boyz.

It boils down to a lot of dead kanz

I played a game where I brought 12 Kanz, 2 Dreadz a Big mek with KFF and a Nob with Banner. The Kanz did ok, but they died in droves and I honestly forgot about them exploding on 6s. They wrecked face when they finally got into CC and then sucked against his warlord who had a 4+ Invuln that he just couldn't fail. He also used CP rerolls to keep his guy alive, He single handedly killed about 3 kanz and the dread.

Overall i wasn't impressed by the dakka of the kanz nor their CC abilities, even with the Waaagh Banner nob. The KFF Big mek helped mitigate damage but not enough to make a big difference in the outcome. I think they need a points reduction badly, all of them.

**Frozocrone**

Blasphemy, I like to think the dice gods will be on my side.

I'd like something in the codex that improves our BS by 1. Maybe as a Bad Moons ork we get that as Clan rules (or more shots to represent the bling).

Basically the KFF help to keep stuff alive. Killing more stuff also does that though.

**SemperMortis**

Frozocrone wrote:
Blasphemy, I like to think the dice gods will be on my side.

I'd like something in the codex that improves our BS by 1. Maybe as a Bad Moons ork we get that as Clan rules (or more shots to represent the bling).

Basically the KFF help to keep stuff alive. Killing more stuff also does that though.

They might give us back the stupid Git finda and then find another way to make it useless, like if you blink that turn you don't get to use it. Or that might be too reliable. Maybe if you breathe during your turn the git finda doesn't work.

I have read so many codexs and not a single one of them has half as many AMAZING Combos as the Ork Codex does, but then get spoiled by some idiot rule writer.

Examples: Battlewagon gets rule that ignores movement for heavy weapons! Doesn't work for passengers

Battlewagon can be Toughness 8: loses shooting ability and is still 4+ save.
Flash Gitz FINALLY get BS4+ standard!!!!

Rules change that give -1 to heavy weapons when moving

Killa Kanz get a 3+ save and get to move a bit faster! All their weapons become useless and over priced.
Weirdboy can "Da Jump" Units across the board and they get to assault!!!!!!

Rules change says only 1 per turn

Kommandos gain +2 to cover instead of +1! If they are in cover they lose charge ranged and even with cover its still only a 4+ save

Big Mek can fix a lot of hullpoints! Can't be inside the vehicle

Burnas no longer have to choose between weapon profiles! Become so expensive they aren't worth taking, ohh and D3 instead of D6

I can keep going but I think you get the point.

**pismakron**

I dont think we need anything that gives us +1 BS. Orks has plenty of good shooting units that are just handicapped by being way too squishy when on foot (tankbustas, lootas, flashgitz), too expensive in a transport (lootas), or not able to move and shoot (flashgitz), or just too expensive overall (warbikers). More than anything else, it is the new cover rules that has nerfed Orks dakka. We used to be able to get a 4+ cover save easily, and back in 4th we could even use grots to generate cover for our specialist troops. And the new damage model and lack of jink-save has also made warbikers a lot more squishy for their points. Flashgitz needs an assault or rapidfire profile on their guns. Rapidfire 2 would be nice.

**JimOnMars**

Kallius wrote:
Hey everyone!

Recently returning to the hobby and picked up the Start Collecting box and the Index for Orks but they've sent out the miniatures and sent the other Xenos index.

Im wondering if anyone could give me a guide on a decent way to optimize the Boyz, Nobz and Deff Dread. I understand it obviously varies but im wondering if theres a kind of go to/safe bet with War Gear. I cant wait to get going.

Thanks

Read the thread!

Boyz are great in blobs of 30, Nobz like big choppas, or plain. Despite GW's claims, dreads aren't very good. Multiple damage weapons will chew through him pretty easily. Probably outfit him full close combat and use him as a distraction unit.

**Bigdoza**

I have ran a banner nob inside/behind a Gorkanaut about 5 games now.

It has always been utterly insane.

Have not had my Gork Die yet and anything it touches is removed.

Last game he stood there pounding his belly and accepted the charge of two Carnifex and a Swarmlord (one fex turn one other two turn two)
Erased the first fex after it rolled all ones and twos to hit, he chose to activate a different combat's chargers first on his turn two so I used CP to sneak Gork in. It dropped Swarmy to 1 wound before it got to swing back. Then on my turn two gork big and stompy fell back, dakka'd swarmlord's last wound off and charged into the second fex killing it.

**SemperMortis**

Bigdoza wrote:
I have ran a banner nob inside/behind a Gorkanaut about 5 games now.

It has always been utterly insane.

Have not had my Gork Die yet and anything it touches is removed.

Last game he stood there pounding his belly and accepted the charge of two Carnifex and a Swarmlord (one fex turn one other two turn two)
Erased the first fex after it rolled all ones and twos to hit, he chose to activate a different combat's chargers first on his turn two so I used CP to sneak Gork in. It dropped Swarmy to 1 wound before it got to swing back. Then on my turn two gork big and stompy fell back, dakka'd swarmlord's last wound off and charged into the second fex killing it.

And now go against a Girlyman gunline and watch your Gorkanaut die turn 1.

2 Predator Annihilators = 8 shots, 7 hits, 6 wounds at -3AP doing D6 damage = 18+ wounds and he can use a CP to ensure it dies.

The tournament I was in had that exact build and he was EXTREMELY annoyed by me. I had nothing he could shoot at besides boyz and stormboyz so his 200pt model was shooting sledgehammers to kill flies

So really it just depends on the lists you are playing against, and Girlyman gunlines are not rare in competitive Meta.

**Blackie**

I agree, a list with guilliman that buffs two las preds and a couple of twin assault cannon razorbacks is pretty common. Tipycally with also a stormraven in the party.

Against that kind of list you may go all vehicles or all boyz and similars plus characters. If you give the SM player the appropriate targets for both his anti tank and his anti infantry weapons orks' fate will be doomed by turn 1.

**pismakron**

SemperMortis wrote:
Bigdoza wrote:
I have ran a banner nob inside/behind a Gorkanaut about 5 games now.

It has always been utterly insane.

Have not had my Gork Die yet and anything it touches is removed.

Last game he stood there pounding his belly and accepted the charge of two Carnifex and a Swarmlord (one fex turn one other two turn two)
Erased the first fex after it rolled all ones and twos to hit, he chose to activate a different combat's chargers first on his turn two so I used CP to sneak Gork in. It dropped Swarmy to 1 wound before it got to swing back. Then on my turn two gork big and stompy fell back, dakka'd swarmlord's last wound off and charged into the second fex killing it.

And now go against a Girlyman gunline and watch your Gorkanaut die turn 1.

2 Predator Annihilators = 8 shots, 7 hits, 6 wounds at -3AP doing D6 damage = 18+ wounds and he can use a CP to ensure it dies.

The tournament I was in had that exact build and he was EXTREMELY annoyed by me. I had nothing he could shoot at besides boyz and stormboyz so his 200pt model was shooting sledgehammers to kill flies

But this is also why green tide lists has no synergy with anything but more boyz and characters. Bring tankbustas, and they will be annihilated. Bring tankbustas in a transport, and it will be annihilated. Bring walkers, and they will die. You either spam nothing but 6-9 point models, or go all out T8. I have not yet tried the latter, so I don't know if it is viable after all.

If Orks were stronger overall, there would be a lot of people out there demanding a nerf to Ghaz. He is that good, and one of the very few things we have that will work in almost any kind of list.

**Blackie**

pismakron wrote:

Flashgitz needs an assault or rapidfire profile on their guns. Rapidfire 2 would be nice.

At their price they should be rapid fire 3 to justify their inclusion in a competitive list.

**Marklarr**

Blackie wrote:
pismakron wrote:

Flashgitz needs an assault or rapidfire profile on their guns. Rapidfire 2 would be nice.

At their price they should be rapid fire 3 to justify their inclusion in a competitive list.

....with 4+ armour

**Bigdoza**

So who would the Ork "Primarch" release be?

New Ghaz sculpt?

Gork and Mork?

**malcontent999**

Bigdoza wrote:
So who would the Ork "Primarch" release be?

New Ghaz sculpt?

Gork and Mork?

My vote would be for a suped-up Ghaz. According to the fluff, the way orks grow, he should definitely be primarch stature by now.

**gungo**

Ghaz as a 9 wound monstrous creature moved to lord of war slot. He should be able to reach ork prime status just like in the the beast arises series.

Beyond that we could use another named character preferably a big mek since they usually play vital roles in lore and we have some major lore characters that need models in that section (orkimedes, Mogrok, wazdakka, gorzod- all of which are massively well known) maybe warboss grukk faceriper can grow into a more prominent role with a new special rule as well. I also wouldn't mind a named ork wirdboy.

**Vineheart01**

Solar Shock wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
Touche, i actually havnt used MANz in 8th except in a smaller tutorial-type game with a friend that recently got into the game. Been having too much fun with walkers lol, finally getting use out of my kanz and deffs is amazing. (i have 6 Kanz and 4 Deffdreads lol)
The ability to do the old school "wound shenanigans" makes me wonder if its worth having a larger than 3man MANz squad now. Or for that matter since vehicles dont have a unit limitation, just 2 squads in the same trukk/wagon lol

what wound shenaniganz? do we have wound shenanigans again?

edit: disregard i missed something

**malcontent999**

gungo wrote:
Ghaz as a 9 wound monstrous creature moved to lord of war slot. He should be able to reach ork prime status just like in the the beast arises series.

Beyond that we could use another named character preferably a big mek since they usually play vital roles in lore and we have some major lore characters that need models in that section (orkimedes, Mogrok, wazdakka, gorzod- all of which are massively well known) maybe warboss grukk faceriper can grow into a more prominent role with a new special rule as well. I also wouldn't mind a named ork wirdboy.

It would be nice to get Nazdreg from 3rd with an update. He's not dead is he?

Give me Old Zogwort back! I want to turn me enemies into squigs again!

**GreatGranpapy**

What kind of mileage have y'all been getting out of either of the Orkanauts? Thinking of picking one up for myself eventually.

On a side note the Dakkajet has been putting in good work for me so far.

**JimOnMars**

malcontent999 wrote:
Give me Old Zogwort back! I want to turn me enemies into squigs again!

Yep. Zogwort as a primarch would be almost universally reviled.

Prediction: He will be released in the USA on August 21, 2017.

**koooaei**

Anyone who claims Zogworth ain't primarch mysteriously turns into squig. So for what i might know he is indeed a primarch...

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

Flash Gitz have quite a bit of firepower when they stand still. I'm not sure how we're supposed to get them in range and then have them stand still for a turn without getting blown off the table though. Maybe there will be a stratagem for them.

I'm not sure how worried I should be about all of our bike characters getting axed. I guess I can just run them out of the Index, but it would still be pretty lame.

gungo wrote:
Ghaz as a 9 wound monstrous creature moved to lord of war slot. He should be able to reach ork prime status just like in the the beast arises series.

I haven't got to the primeorks in TBA yet, but aren't they supposed to be the size of buildings or something ridiculous like that?

From an earlier book in TBA (The Hunt for Vulkan?):

Spoiler:

Warbosses over three meters tall seem to show up frequently in the fluff. A warboss that size in Mega Armor would be roughly the size of a Space Marine dreadnought.

So yeah, I would definitely like to see a much bigger Ghazzy model. I could even see them giving him more than nine wounds, even though going over nine would be a bad thing in terms of making him really vulnerable.

**koooaei**

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

So yeah, I would definitely like to see a much bigger Ghazzy model. I could even see them giving him more than nine wounds, even though going over nine would be a bad thing in terms of making him really vulnerable.

Depending on how much OVER 9~~000~~.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

koooaei wrote:
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

So yeah, I would definitely like to see a much bigger Ghazzy model. I could even see them giving him more than nine wounds, even though going over nine would be a bad thing in terms of making him really vulnerable.

Depending on how much OVER 9.

Fifty-four wounds. Release it as a Ghaz/Stompa dual kit.

If they gave him the Super Cybork and it was a good FNP that could do a lot to make him more survivable as well.

**koooaei**

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

So yeah, I would definitely like to see a much bigger Ghazzy model. I could even see them giving him more than nine wounds, even though going over nine would be a bad thing in terms of making him really vulnerable.

Depending on how much OVER 9.

Release it as a Ghaz/Stompa dual kit.

**pismakron**

My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.

That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.

**warhead01**

I'm not too excited about the idea of a new bigger Ghaz model.
I think 8th edition is an opportunity to introduce new special characters and I'd rather see that than get new models of old characters right away. If there would be a new Ghaz model I'd hope they wait a while and drop a supplement to go with him.

Just let that shark circle the boat a little while longer.

pismakron wrote:
My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.

That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.

I don't care for either of those house rules very much. We'd probably see T6 3+ save Warbikers and Biker Nobs back in really big way once again. Maybe T5 MANZ. but the lack of a invulnerable wave would do them in. it plays into the hands of armies that can bring lots of multi damage weapons.

**gungo**

Regardless after 3 major still ongoing wars and the fact ghaz is the warboss of warbosses in the largest modern era waaagh. He should be much bigger at this point as he will continue to grow. He may not reach prime ork status yet but he should definitely be at least the size of a dreadnaut. However I wouldnt dismiss him if he reached primeork status. As the beast arises shows us they are not unkillable but prime orks are definitely primarch level of power. Heck there was an even a prime ork that took both the emperor and Horus together to kill.

Personally I'd like to see rules for mogrok especially since he still has a recent model. I'd love a wasdakka gutsmek warbike model w kff for official big mek w kff model w battle cannons for guns. Or just go all ghaz waaagh and make orkemedes he can be original and if you include cybork parts in his sprue maybe he can do something cool like make a single unit upgrade to free to cyborks.