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 JimOnMars wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Zomnivore wrote:
I have 90 boyz is that enough now adays or do I need to paint even more?

90 is a good number since it's ideal to fill out the troops slots in a battalion detachment. Depending on how competitive your meta is, 90 is the bare minimum requirement for most Ork lists, after which you can sprinkle around whatever support you want, like stormboyz, kommandos or mek/big guns.

What do you all think of massed stormboyz? We lose the Green Tide rule, but gain speed, for a low cost. Has anyone tried run 90 or more stormboyz?

I think they're good, but not by themselves good. Definitely more of a supplementary force than the core part of an Ork army. I can see you fielding 60 or so alongside a green tide but they have a few more weaknesses than boyz do. For one thing, since they're not troops, you miss out on easy CP that boyz fill if you try to max out on them. Also, missing out the Green Tide rule can make a difference as Weirdboyz with Da Jump more often than not allow some of your big boyz units to get in before they lose half their number and against certain targets you really need that extra oomph that Stormboyz can't quite match. Also, the dakka that shoota boyz can put out when teleported can make a significant difference against certain armies like Slaanesh daemons in the off chance they don't get the charge against a target.

Taking mass storm boyz also requires (IMO) Zagstruk and a Biker Warboss to keep them in line, as seeing them beeline towards their targets will make them big fire magnets that are not very resilient. I've used them with a KFF Biker Mek but I'm not sure if its worth the investment given how quickly they can outpace even a biker mek.

 Jidmah wrote:
We also have seen some list placing well in tournaments which focus heavily on multiple weirdboyz and big gun (not mek gun) spam combined with powerful HQs like Thrakka, Grotznik, Zardsnark, Zagstrukk and Biker warbosses.

Those list still bringt at least 100 orks with choppas though.

I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.

That being said, Kannons are the best backfield objective holders we have because the grot crew can't be shot at unless they're the closest unit to the enemy.

 Grimskul wrote:


Taking mass storm boyz also requires (IMO) Zagstruk and a Biker Warboss to keep them in line, as seeing them beeline towards their targets will make them big fire magnets that are not very resilient. I've used them with a KFF Biker Mek but I'm not sure if its worth the investment given how quickly they can outpace even a biker mek.

Actually zagstruck is enough to keep them in line, the warboss is needed to babysit the boyz. I've tried the combo 2x30 stormboyz, zagstruck and a biker mek to shield them with also 3x30 boyz and a teleporting weirdboy. They're good but still suffer from the rock-paper-scissor syndrome: if you go first or the opponent doesn't have massive anti infantry tools you're probably going to crush him easily, if you go second and the opponent is guilliman and friends or other lists that can decimate infantries you may lose all the stormboyz before they reach combat, regardless of the KFF. If the opponent is better than you in close combat the combo is not effective either.

Generally speaking 60 stormboyz and zagstruk can be considered solid. Not an auto-take since they may find hard counters and since they cost a huge amount of money, unless you convert some cheap boyz bought from ebay with scratch built rockets on their backs, I'll definitely prefer using regular boyz over them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glane wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
We also have seen some list placing well in tournaments which focus heavily on multiple weirdboyz and big gun (not mek gun) spam combined with powerful HQs like Thrakka, Grotznik, Zardsnark, Zagstrukk and Biker warbosses.

Those list still bringt at least 100 orks with choppas though.

I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.

That being said, Kannons are the best backfield objective holders we have because the grot crew can't be shot at unless they're the closest unit to the enemy.

Keep in mind that tournaments have time limits. Those kannons spam can be solid in a 3 turns game but in a regular one it's a different story. It's almost impossible to kill a green tide and 10 kannons in a few turns but it's also hard to assault the artillery since you can teleport a third or maybe half the boyz in those formats, which means that the artillery usually has some boyz not too far from them preventing deep striking units. Maybe not for all of them but the majority of the kannonz should be safe.

Green tides in general are way more effective in 3 turns tournament games than friendly semicompetitive 5-7 turns games.

Keep in mind that tournaments have time limits. Those kannons spam can be solid in a 3 turns game but in a regular one it's a different story. It's almost impossible to kill a green tide and 10 kannons in a few turns but it's also hard to assault the artillery since you can teleport a third or maybe half the boyz in those formats, which means that the artillery usually has some boyz not too far from them preventing deep striking units. Maybe not for all of them but the majority of the kannonz should be safe.

Green tides in general are way more effective in 3 turns tournament games than friendly semicompetitive 5-7 turns games.

That's exactly my point; without time limits, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't just take more Boyz. I've heard people say that Kannons and Dakkajets are good because they're showing up in tournament lists, but the only reason they're showing up is time limits. Remove a time limit and you're just going to add more Boyz in, because it's the most effective way to play the army. Which is a pity.

 Glane wrote:

Keep in mind that tournaments have time limits. Those kannons spam can be solid in a 3 turns game but in a regular one it's a different story. It's almost impossible to kill a green tide and 10 kannons in a few turns but it's also hard to assault the artillery since you can teleport a third or maybe half the boyz in those formats, which means that the artillery usually has some boyz not too far from them preventing deep striking units. Maybe not for all of them but the majority of the kannonz should be safe.

Green tides in general are way more effective in 3 turns tournament games than friendly semicompetitive 5-7 turns games.

That's exactly my point; without time limits, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't just take more Boyz. I've heard people say that Kannons and Dakkajets are good because they're showing up in tournament lists, but the only reason they're showing up is time limits. Remove a time limit and you're just going to add more Boyz in, because it's the most effective way to play the army. Which is a pity.

That's why I field my Kommandos lists....well that and the concept of having 90 Kommandos, 30 boyz and 7 nobz armed with Big choppas show up in front of your gun line on any turn I feel like is a lot of fun

The primary reason for not just adding more boyz is that it is very tedious to play with a 250 model army. And I say that as someone who loves boyz and infantry armies in general.

Apart from that I wholeheartedly agree. Any Ork list can be improved by removing any non-boy unit and replacing it with more boyz.

In my last game I brought 210 boyz, Ghaz, a Warboss, Grotsnik, a Painboy and four Weirdboyz. Ghaz and the Weirdboyz were solid, as they always are, but if had dumped Ghaz and two Weirdboyz for a Warboss and 40 more boyz, then I think my list would have been even stronger (and even more boring). 210 is already close to my pain threshold, even though I am a fairly quick mover.

I think that against many lists, with 300 boyz you could just stand on objectives and not engage in combat, and then win the game on points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

That's why I field my Kommandos lists....well that and the concept of having 90 Kommandos, 30 boyz and 7 nobz armed with Big choppas show up in front of your gun line on any turn I feel like is a lot of fun

This list also protects you somewhat against first turn shenanigans, like that stupid ravenguard stratagem, or just the good old Girlyman Assault-cannon parking lot. Do you ever use snikrot?

 Glane wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
We also have seen some list placing well in tournaments which focus heavily on multiple weirdboyz and big gun (not mek gun) spam combined with powerful HQs like Thrakka, Grotznik, Zardsnark, Zagstrukk and Biker warbosses.

Those list still bringt at least 100 orks with choppas though.

I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.

That being said, Kannons are the best backfield objective holders we have because the grot crew can't be shot at unless they're the closest unit to the enemy.

I kind of doubt that. Kannons are simply one of the few shooting units that is actually worth its points and reasonably survivable for its points. Even if the kannon is taken out, you have two hard to kill gunners left that can still score objectives.

According to one guy that fielded such a list he was spamming kannons to be able to threaten the daemon primarchs at all, which are in half the tournament lists right now. With a green tide you are pretty much forced to ignore Mortarion and Magnus and hope for the best, Mortarion can take out a mob of 30 all by himself if he doesn't roll terrible. Best he can do is take out three kannons in one turn, by smiting one, shooting another and assaulting the third, which is not at all guaranteed to work - and then you'd still have three pairs of grot gunners left. In addition, the secondary fire mode is useful for taking out bubble wraps.

Last, but not least, kannons are 27 points for 5 wounds, ork boyz are 30 points for 5 wounds, so you don't lose that much from fielding them instead of boyz.

How many kustom mega kannons would I need before I have a useful unit?

They're not cheap on the wallet, but I kinda like having grots in my army in some way and it seems like a useful shooting unit.

Zomnivore wrote:
How many kustom mega kannons would I need before I have a useful unit?

They're not cheap on the wallet, but I kinda like having grots in my army in some way and it seems like a useful shooting unit.

Six is a good number. And they are definitely heinously expensive. Look at Glanes excellent suggestion for an alternative two pages back. Regards

I use units of 2 KMKs each. One unit if I have a couple of trukks full of bustas, two units with only one trukk of bustas and three units if I don't bring tankbustas.

I've scratch built all my mek gunz and magnetized the platforms to switch weapons, I've bought some bitz form a site in order to make them look WYSIWYG but since WYSIWYG is not a thing anymore, so you can scratch build your own artillery and make it count as the type of big/mek gunz you prefer.

The original models are utterly expensive, even if they're quite cool IMHO.

How well do Stormboyz work as an anti air defense? Since they have the fly keyword, they can charge other flying units, maybe getting some hits in with a PK? Zagstruck seems like he would do some damage too. Even if they reduced the effectiveness of flying units it might be worth it.

Ashkayel wrote:
Game #2 (2000 pts):
My list: 6x 12 boyz w/ PK nob in trukk, 4x KMK, 3x min bike squad, 3x min kommando squad, Zhadsnark, 2x KFF bikermek
Went second, lost all my KMK on first turn but not a single trukk, made multiple charges (he had scouts, termies and Lysander in range, wasn't his best move), fought a lot, engaged as much as possible his razorbacks, etc. He conceded after turn 2. I had the relic and was locking in combat more and more stuff every turn.

Game #3 (1000 pts):
My list: 2x 5 nobz w/ runts and a warboss in a wagon, 5 tankbustas and 13 shootas in an OT wagon w/ big shootas, 1 kannon, 1 KFF bikermek
Went first, moved forward, eventually charged with the nobz, we had a good fight, shooty wagon was doing shooty stuff and was ready to jump in the fight. He conceded after turn 3, I was way ahead in objectives, and also a bit on the battlefield.

Thanks for this! I'm glad to see people having some success with stuff other then Green Tide and Smite spam.
Could you post your lists with a lil more detail (HQ's, Nob's, Boss Nob's, Trukk's and Battlewagon's equipment and so on) and a little more detailed thoughts on the game/battlerep?
Have you (or anyone else) had any ideas on improving those lists?

Shrapnelbait wrote:
How well do Stormboyz work as an anti air defense? Since they have the fly keyword, they can charge other flying units, maybe getting some hits in with a PK? Zagstruck seems like he would do some damage too. Even if they reduced the effectiveness of flying units it might be worth it.

They don't work at all really. Mass stormboyz can down flyers (those with airborne and hard to hit), but only if your opponent makes a mistake in his movement. The same is true of Weirdboyz. They can be effective against flyers, but only if your opponent slips up and lets them. And you cannot count on that.

By far the most effective way of dealing with (airborne) fliers is to:

1) Ignore his aircrafts

2) Attack his ground army

3) Secure objectives

4) Get a lead in victory points.

5) Win the game on points

Shrapnelbait wrote:
How well do Stormboyz work as an anti air defense? Since they have the fly keyword, they can charge other flying units, maybe getting some hits in with a PK? Zagstruck seems like he would do some damage too. Even if they reduced the effectiveness of flying units it might be worth it.

I mathed it out in another thread.

Storm-raven is a pretty common sight in 8th, so let's work from that. T7 and 14 Wounds with a 3+ save means Stormboyz need to cause, on average, 42 wounds to bring a Stormraven down. Stormboyz wound the Raven on a 5+, so they need to hit it 126 times to cause 42 wounds. Since Stormboyz hit on a 3+, that works out to 189 attacks. Since a Stormboy has 3 attacks, that works out to 63 Stormboyz, or slightly over 3 full squads, to take out a single Stormraven.

You can throw in a Nob with a Power Klaw, but on average they do around 2 dmg a turn, so not a noticeable increase.

For anyone wanting to use gork/Morkanaught i just built mine and magnetized it to be both. You can litterally stick the KMK inside the megashootas backend to make a reversible weapon. I just put a magnet on the bottom of the megakannon and moved the cable to the side. then mounted the other magnet inside the gun arm housing. The body weapons are easy to magnetize and i also magnetized the force field thing on top of the body. Not it can easily be either variant. i have yet to play it in a game but i am hopeful it will be fun.

I really like the morkanaut and while I think it would be nice on the pocket to have it set up a specific way so I could have morkanaut or a gorkanaut I think ultimately I'd like one of each just to have the option so I'm going to assemble it without magnetizing.

That being said.

In a one one fight who wins the morkanaut or the gorkanaut.

Zomnivore wrote:


In a one one fight who wins the morkanaut or the gorkanaut.

Gorkanaut wins every time. 2 more attacks just makes it better at what it's best at: hitting stuff. Their ranged capacities on both are negligable, but the Gorka at least can't hurt itself shooting its weapons. The KFF just doesn't provide much protection against the kind of weapons flying around the battlefield these days.

 Glane wrote:
I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.

Movement trays!

https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.fi/2017/09/episode-46-this-seems-familiar-orks-vs.html

Look what this guy does allowing 2h games to be won(albeit he comments that being tight often seeming to end on T3-T4 though often enough by opponent conceding) with 180 boyz.

With 8th ed works even better than ever.

Here is the source:

http://www.litko.net/categories.php?category=Movement-Trays-%26-Inserts

I considered buying previously, but did not feel spending 100 bucks on wooden trays worth it.

Kromlech also has movement trays, not as fancy. But you get 6x5 base trays for 5 bucks.

https://bitsofwar.com/home/608-round-base-skirmish-tray-25mm.html

Enjoy

 Glane wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
How well do Stormboyz work as an anti air defense? Since they have the fly keyword, they can charge other flying units, maybe getting some hits in with a PK? Zagstruck seems like he would do some damage too. Even if they reduced the effectiveness of flying units it might be worth it.

I mathed it out in another thread.

Storm-raven is a pretty common sight in 8th, so let's work from that. T7 and 14 Wounds with a 3+ save means Stormboyz need to cause, on average, 42 wounds to bring a Stormraven down. Stormboyz wound the Raven on a 5+, so they need to hit it 126 times to cause 42 wounds. Since Stormboyz hit on a 3+, that works out to 189 attacks. Since a Stormboy has 3 attacks, that works out to 63 Stormboyz, or slightly over 3 full squads, to take out a single Stormraven.

You can throw in a Nob with a Power Klaw, but on average they do around 2 dmg a turn, so not a noticeable increase.

And good luck catching a flyer with stormboyz. Ohh and the fact that the storm raven can basically erase a mob of stormboyz in one round of shooting and then deal with the CC of the others, fly out of range on turn 2 and erase another mob.


As for taking Snikrot in my Kommandos lists? No, he isn't worth his points and his ability is wasted since I want my Kommandos charging the turn they arrive so they tend to avoid cover.

Gruxz wrote:
Kromlech also has movement trays, not as fancy. But you get 6x5 base trays for 5 bucks.

https://bitsofwar.com/home/608-round-base-skirmish-tray-25mm.html

Enjoy

And of course you can make them yourself. Don't think i have ever bought one. Don't think i ever will. Make yes, buy no.

Problem with movement trays, is as soon as the boyz are in combat the trays just get in the way.
They might speed up movement slightly, but slow down combat as you take them off to pile in.

tneva82 wrote:

 Glane wrote:
I keep feeling like the reason Big Guns show up in those lists is because if you brought more Boyz you'd never finish a tournament game. Weirdboyz spam makes sense because it's pretty easy to get them up over 10 for Smite, but I can't help but think that if time limits didn't exist, you'd just swap out the Big Guns for more Boyz.

Movement trays!

https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.fi/2017/09/episode-46-this-seems-familiar-orks-vs.html

Look what this guy does allowing 2h games to be won(albeit he comments that being tight often seeming to end on T3-T4 though often enough by opponent conceding) with 180 boyz.

With 8th ed works even better than ever.

In preperation for a tournament that was imposing strict 2hr 15min time limits on games, I did up a green tide list and tried to get a game in. We hit bottom of Turn 2 at the 2 hour mark.

That might sound par for the course, but I was doing all my movement in my opponent's turn. I was simply moving the closest model from each unit forward, ending my turn, then using his movement and shooting phases to move my stuff. I had no shooting to speak of so that didn't slow us down.

What slowed us down was close combat. It just takes a long time to pile in, roll attacks, saves, etc. Movement trays don't help with that. And you can't just go "Oh i won't bother attacking with those Boyz" like a Guard player strapped for time might not bother to shoot with some Conscripts. Boyz win by attrition and numbers, so you have to keep rolling those attacks. And short of using dice aps, which no-one wants to allow, there's no way to speed up rolling 100+ dice.

What helps for rolling lots of dice is having fixed numbers of each color of dice. For example, if you have 15 red dice, 10 white dice and 5 dice, you can quickly grab all red and white dice to roll 25 attacks. Make sure to collect all your dice after rolling.

Also keep track of how many orks are left in any mob all the time, use d10 or d20 if you can't reliably remember it all. You no longer spend time counting orks if you do that.

For pile-ins, don't use measurement tape, either buy the combat gauge from GW or make one yourself. If you know the thing is 3", you each single move becomes a lot faster since you no longer keep checking the tape.

This has helped me speed up my turns tremendously.

 Jidmah wrote:
What helps for rolling lots of dice is having fixed numbers of each color of dice. For example, if you have 15 red dice, 10 white dice and 5 dice, you can quickly grab all red and white dice to roll 25 attacks. Make sure to collect all your dice after rolling.

Also keep track of how many orks are left in any mob all the time, use d10 or d20 if you can't reliably remember it all. You no longer spend time counting orks if you do that.

For pile-ins, don't use measurement tape, either buy the combat gauge from GW or make one yourself. If you know the thing is 3", you each single move becomes a lot faster since you no longer keep checking the tape.

This has helped me speed up my turns tremendously.

All good advices and some I will pick up myself! I particularly like the idea of fixed numbers of different coloured dice. Never occured to me. I always have just random pile of dices but for horde army certainly makes sense. Time to get dice shopping! Opponents soon wonder why I have this big pile of dices 20 different colours

I agree with what everyone else have said: movement trays helps deployment and movement, but the suck on terrain and you will often need to take the models off the trays when charging, piling in, and wrapping around in the fight phase.

I once saw a dude who had these triangular mini-trays for 3 25mm based models (tzaangors I think). The tray had a clear rod in the middle for grabbing, and they were magnetised. He had made this neat transport-box were all the trays would fit in a pattern, and when he needed to take casualties he would just swap bases. Like removing three 3-man trays and adding a single model for eight casualties. It essentially meant that a large blob of 30 models handled like a blob of ten models.

Fixed measuring gauges for 1" to 5-6" is also a big help. But the most important part is probably practice. Practice moving your army, fighting and piling in quickly.

One way to speed up playing with 100++ models is to use a app for rolling dice.

Nora wrote:
One way to speed up playing with 100++ models is to use a app for rolling dice.

That runs into issue of opponent not neccessarily trusting computer's(or phone's) pseudo-random.

tneva82 wrote:

Nora wrote:
One way to speed up playing with 100++ models is to use a app for rolling dice.

That runs into issue of opponent not neccessarily trusting computer's(or phone's) pseudo-random.

Especially when they know that you are a software developer and claim that you could have rigged the app yourself...

(And yes, that happened to me.)