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 Jidmah wrote:
If GW wants orks to buy more models, they will just nerf everything to oblivion and then force you to buy a new book which requires you to buy everything you already had another two or three times in order to be able to compete with other bottom tier armies.

I don't think that is true at all. I don't see what motive GW would have for deliberately screwing over Ork players. I think there is a much simpler explanation for why GW seems to give Orks a second-rate treatment at times: None of their studio-people plays Orks regularly.

The Morkanaut buff in CA was very indicative: They managed to inadvertently buff our strongest artillery piece, the KMK, whereas the Morkanaut still is way overcosted.

pismakron wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If GW wants orks to buy more models, they will just nerf everything to oblivion and then force you to buy a new book which requires you to buy everything you already had another two or three times in order to be able to compete with other bottom tier armies.

I don't think that is true at all. I don't see what motive GW would have for deliberately screwing over Ork players. I think there is a much simpler explanation for why GW seems to give Orks a second-rate treatment at times: None of their studio-people plays Orks regularly.

The Morkanaut buff in CA was very indicative: They managed to inadvertently buff our strongest artillery piece, the KMK, whereas the Morkanaut still is way overcosted.

Humor aside this is what I think as well. They do their studio games all the time now and I rarely see Orkz....in fact I can't think of the last time I saw Orkz played at all. None of their staff understand The intricacies of the Ork army and just throw random crap at our army and assume it's good. The stratagem "Dakka Dakka Dakka" is a prime example of this. Giving SMs 1/6th more shots is a decent reason to expend 1 CP. for Orkz its laughable.

Same for Mobbing Up. It could have been really good but they don't understand Orkz enough to realize we needed to mob up different units not just more boyz.

pismakron wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If GW wants orks to buy more models, they will just nerf everything to oblivion and then force you to buy a new book which requires you to buy everything you already had another two or three times in order to be able to compete with other bottom tier armies.

I don't think that is true at all. I don't see what motive GW would have for deliberately screwing over Ork players. I think there is a much simpler explanation for why GW seems to give Orks a second-rate treatment at times: None of their studio-people plays Orks regularly.

The Morkanaut buff in CA was very indicative: They managed to inadvertently buff our strongest artillery piece, the KMK, whereas the Morkanaut still is way overcosted.

I think part of it is that Orks are typically a NPC race, the race designed to lose.

That said, the same things could be said for Chaos and Tyranids and both of those have turned out well in 8th when their Codices were released. I think being patient for the Codex before decrying GW as not caring is a little rash. They did just buff the KMK after all.

 Frozocrone wrote:


I think part of it is that Orks are typically a NPC race, the race designed to lose.

That said, the same things could be said for Chaos and Tyranids and both of those have turned out well in 8th when their Codices were released. I think being patient for the Codex before decrying GW as not caring is a little rash. They did just buff the KMK after all.

In regards to that I give you 5th edition and 6th edition with no new codex and then 7th edition with 1 codex, 2 Campaigns, 2 new units (Nauts and wazbom) and 2 supplements that were trash, ohh and our 8th edition index.

We have about a decade of examples of GW being ignorant of the Ork army's needs

I think a glimmer of hope for the codex is not an unreasonable thing to have. We may get another vaguely competitive build out of it. I doubt it will make Orks worse. I expect disappointment but I also expect a bit more flavour. And I have a glimmer of hope that it'll at least make Orks more fun again. If not competitive...

 Jidmah wrote:
If GW wants orks to buy more models, they will just nerf everything to oblivion and then force you to buy a new book which requires you to buy everything you already had another two or three times in order to be able to compete with other bottom tier armies.

I really suspect this to be true, at least partially. GW knows that there are thousands of 40k players who have Orks lying around, and if the greenskins got a boost, so many "whales" would simply dust off their old models and not buy anything new. Even if GW claims otherwise, the economics of letting 20 year old models reach the top tables has to weigh on the design teams. If the Orks ever Git Gud, it will probably be with brand new models that we all get to buy.

The motivation is painfully obvious when we the vast majority of improvements in CA were the Morkanaut, Mek Guns and the rumored brand-new buggies. New models get a buff...old ones get the shaft. How transparent can GW get?

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If GW wants orks to buy more models, they will just nerf everything to oblivion and then force you to buy a new book which requires you to buy everything you already had another two or three times in order to be able to compete with other bottom tier armies.

I really suspect this to be true, at least partially. GW knows that there are thousands of 40k players who have Orks lying around, and if the greenskins got a boost, so many "whales" would simply dust off their old models and not buy anything new. Even if GW claims otherwise, the economics of letting 20 year old models reach the top tables has to weigh on the design teams. If the Orks ever Git Gud, it will probably be with brand new models that we all get to buy.

The motivation is painfully obvious when we the vast majority of improvements in CA were the Morkanaut, Mek Guns and the rumored brand-new buggies. New models get a buff...old ones get the shaft. How transparent can GW get?

But why, then, are boyz and Weirdboyz so good, whereas the Morkanaut has sucked since forever?

I was being cynical in my original post, I do want believe that it doesn't work that way.

Still, the Weirdboy has always sucked up until now, and no one had more than one or two of them in their collection unless the have bought multiple other collections.

If SAG spam becomes the new super secret tech, no one would be able to field 4+ of them, even though the SAG has been around forever.

I'm with Jidmah on this one. Nobody owns 2+ Weirdboyz and beyond the hardcore Ork players not that many had 120+ boyz. And Mek guns? Forget about it. Those things are about $50 a pop and we're good last edition but not spectacular.

I went from 0 orks to 90 boyz, 4 weirdboyz, 3 mek guns in like a week

SemperMortis wrote:
I'm with Jidmah on this one. Nobody owns 2+ Weirdboyz and beyond the hardcore Ork players not that many had 120+ boyz. And Mek guns? Forget about it. Those things are about $50 a pop and we're good last edition but not spectacular.

Big/mek gunz have overall been great since 6-th. Lobbas were amazing. KMK have been pretty good until the overheat nerf - (ammo runts could no longer reroll overheat).

You wouldn't have even one if this weren't 8th. The weird boy was a joke unit in the last seven editions. Da jump scattered and all other powers were witch fires which needed to hit on 5+ before doing anything. Before that codex he would simply cast random powers, with one of them centering an explosions on himself.

No one had more than two. You couldn't even field more than two in most editions, and you had to leave your warbosses, characters and meks at home to do so.

If they were continue their trend from 4th edition onward, with the codex weirdboyz, boyz and mek guns would become completely useless and you would have to invest heavily in stompas and burna boyz.

 Jidmah wrote:
You wouldn't have even one if this weren't 8th. The weird boy was a joke unit in the last seven editions. Da jump scattered and all other powers were witch fires which needed to hit on 5+ before doing anything. Before that codex he would simply cast random powers, with one of them centering an explosions on himself.

No one had more than two. You couldn't even field more than two in most editions, and you had to leave your warbosses, characters and meks at home to do so.

If they were continue their trend from 4th edition onward, with the codex weirdboyz, boyz and mek guns would become completely useless and you would have to invest heavily in stompas and burna boyz.

I have 2 weirdboyz and 4 KMKs since 7th edition, but they are converted nobz and scratch built artillery made of plasticard with original barrels bought from a bitz site to make them look WYSIWYG. No way I would buy 2 original weirdboyz and 4 original mek gunz, even if they were our best units.

Spamming those two units is impossible unless converting stuff. I've seen many battle reports with orks lists which included several psykers, none of them had more than a single original weirdboy model. Who wants to spam a monopose model in an ork army?

 Blackie wrote:
I have 2 weirdboyz and 4 KMKs since 7th edition

Yeah, I had one too, but I doubt our AdMech intern would have bought such a unit, an definitely not four of them. You pretty much knew you wasted your points the second you fielded them.

In 7th edition KMKs were not that bad, especially when they could re-roll overheats. Lobbas were absolute killers but against lists with heavy infantries KMKs were not wasted points.

Probably not worthy in a TAC list, but I've never played with TAC lists anyway. For the same reason even Traktor kannons were very good in the previous edition, and now they're pure garbage.

 Jidmah wrote:
I was being cynical in my original post, I do want believe that it doesn't work that way.

Still, the Weirdboy has always sucked up until now, and no one had more than one or two of them in their collection unless the have bought multiple other collections.

If SAG spam becomes the new super secret tech, no one would be able to field 4+ of them, even though the SAG has been around forever.

I have 5 of them; including 1 on a bike...

 Geemoney wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I was being cynical in my original post, I do want believe that it doesn't work that way.

Still, the Weirdboy has always sucked up until now, and no one had more than one or two of them in their collection unless the have bought multiple other collections.

If SAG spam becomes the new super secret tech, no one would be able to field 4+ of them, even though the SAG has been around forever.

I have 5 of them; including 1 on a bike...

lol well you are the odd man out then because I've played Orkz for years and I have 1. I considered buying a 2nd one to get the new kit but that is about it. They are terrible right now and even at their pinnacle they were a gimmick unit you couldn't rely on except for an AP2 large blast....and even then sometimes not.

Don't get me wrong I brought one for fun in most games but never in a tournament.

A question -- Bikes or Buggies for a non-green-tide type list?

I'm new to 40k, and just starting to build a grot-centric army. Due to budget constraints my vehicles and gunz are going to be converted or scratch-built, and I'm a slow builder or the clear answer would be "embrace the power of 'AND'". I've got grots waiting for me at the FLGS and my "goblin wolf-rider legs" arrived today so I should be able to crew either flavor of vehicle.

Eventually i want to scratch-build some grot cutters, but for the moment i've got some cheap ATV toys from the Dollar General that I can convert to either bikes or buggies. Gunz are also planned as soon as I get myself some styrene, so if one of the options (bikes/buggies) synergizes better with gunz that'd be good to know.

thanks!

I'm currently working on a list that puts a nob squad in a trukk with a few characters. I usually have Ghaz, a painboy (or Mad Dok), a Big Mek KFF and then 5 nobs. 3 with combi-rokkits and a ammo runts for rokkit re-rolls and ablative wounds. I was toying with the idea of swapping the 5 nobs for 3 killsaw meganobs, and taking a grot oiler and grot orderly to fill the last two spots in the trukk. It's a slight point reduction (depending on the nob loadout) but it is also less models/wounds, but the models are more resilient. Thoughts?

Coh Magnussen wrote:
A question -- Bikes or Buggies for a non-green-tide type list?

At the moment buggies have the edge over bikes. They're more durable and efficient pointwise and they can outflank. You can fill up 3 fast attacks slots with less than 150 points, 162 if you take skorchas, while bikes are more expensive.

I'm currently using 2-3 skorchas in basically every list I play, but I usually play with vehicles and/or walkers, I'm not a green tide guy.

If you use transports meganobz with killsaws are more killy than nobz.

Listening the FLG chapter tactics podcast. Throught 8th Orks were the best performing Xenos Faction. 25 first place finishes beating out even imperium soup (at 16) and only really getting beat by Chaos (36)

If going in deeper(only taking the best of the best in biggest tournaments doing 4+ wins and 1- loss):
Guard: 24
Chaos Soup: 21
Chaos Space Marines: 21
Aeldarii+(mostly)Ynarri: 16
Imperial Soup: 13
Chaos Daemons: 6
Grey Knights: 6
TAU: 5
Harlequin: 4
Ork: 4(noted as the most misleading as orks were the 3rd-4th most represented army in top tables. Aka a lot of 4+ wins and 2 losses.)
Sisters: 3
Dark Angels: 2
Tyranids: 1
Necrons: 1
Knights: 1

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Listening the FLG chapter tactics podcast. Throught 8th Orks were the best performing Xenos Faction. 25 first place finishes beating out even imperium soup (at 16) and only really getting beat by Chaos (36)

Yes, the greentide is doing well for an index army, that is my impression as well. Although I am pretty certain that Eldar is stronger than Orks post-codex. Their anti deep-strike stratagem is insane with dark reapers.

While it might not be wrong, I find that data to be questionable, since it doesn't match observations from other sources.
Most tournaments in their data pool also had 8 or less participants, so there's that.

However, orks are definitely better than any other index xenos. I can't imagine them being better than Codex:Tyranids and Codex:Craftworl Eldar.

Any any case, our competitive armies are either boring as feth to play and/or require you to spend hundreds of dollars on a gargantuan squiggoth or mek gunz.
And no, being able to convert stuff is not an excuse for GW's messed up pricing strategy on ork units.

Edit: You edited your post while I was typing - this data makes a lot more sense

What I have seen from orks is that they seem to do ok in early rounds of big events where player skill trumps list/faction. They get into the top bracket on the second day and get pounded when they meet up with better players piloting good lists. Almost all top ork lists I have seen have been heavy in FW (Squiggoth, Big Trakk)

Still, that many 1st place placements is nothing to scoff at. Ork competitive lists are actually, IMO, very fun to play compared to most other army competitive lists.

I think they are only GT placings btw, as an important RTT was excluded from that, I think.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I was being cynical in my original post, I do want believe that it doesn't work that way.

Still, the Weirdboy has always sucked up until now, and no one had more than one or two of them in their collection unless the have bought multiple other collections.

If SAG spam becomes the new super secret tech, no one would be able to field 4+ of them, even though the SAG has been around forever.

I have 5 of them; including 1 on a bike...

lol well you are the odd man out then because I've played Orkz for years and I have 1. I considered buying a 2nd one to get the new kit but that is about it. They are terrible right now and even at their pinnacle they were a gimmick unit you couldn't rely on except for an AP2 large blast....and even then sometimes not.

Don't get me wrong I brought one for fun in most games but never in a tournament.

I always tried to take a SAG personally. Ever since the day I realized it was the easiest way to vaporize Terminators in a single go. Then after a few games marine players would focus on killing the little bastard it became something to take focus off other units. Granted that was 3 editions ago........

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Still, that many 1st place placements is nothing to scoff at. Ork competitive lists are actually, IMO, very fun to play compared to most other army competitive lists.

Have you actually played a competitive ork list yet?

Listen rvd why are you here? This is an ork tactica thread. We're not here to discuss how well orks are performing at events (unless it links directly to a specific tactic). So unless you've gleaned some useful or different information that we don't already have from your results, posting them is completely pointless.

Green tide is performing well because it is somewhat counter meta. What lists did your winners run? How many ork players were at these tournaments? What other lists were present? How many players overall? Were there any warbikes in the lists? Nob bikes? Burna Boyz? How about Mega Nobz? Nobz?
Fliers? Any mek gun apart from KMK? Were there any transports that weren't FW models? Boyz in squads less than 30 strong? Were these results pre Eldar and Tyranid codex? Pre Commissar nerf? Pre chapter approved? Does it take any results from outside the US?

You seem to have this belief that Orks are really strong this edition. Good for you. Go play some games and enjoy all those easy wins.

If you want to contribute to this discussion though you need to start talking tactics. Your spreadsheet a few pages ago re ork AA efficiency was really useful but unfortunately it was slightly misleading (we can't take a squad of only bomb squigs + they're one time use weapons which I don't believe was factored into their efficiency because you assumed only one round of firing).

Can you stop pushing your agenda of "look guys Orks are really strong at the moment!" or at least put it in a different and suitable thread if you feel the need.

Look guys, Orks are pretty strong at the moment.

Also the spreadsheet is misleading if the person reading it is ... ummm... <insert an ability name a Troll has in Blood Bowl here>. It shows damage. How is that misleading? You have to take into account enemy durability, ranged, +-1 to hit, suicide attacks, once per game attacks yourself...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Still, that many 1st place placements is nothing to scoff at. Ork competitive lists are actually, IMO, very fun to play compared to most other army competitive lists.

I'm pretty sure orks don't have 25 1st place finishes at GTs in 8th. I listened to the cast and the only stats I remember were for people making it to the "top 8" so going x-1 (or x-2 at NOVA). Which is relevant to the discussion. For instance at NOVA 6-2 could have been 2-2 before the bracketing and then 4-0 in your bracket, which isn't bad but it does mean you were not competing at the top tables, for those last 4 wins. They all came against 2-2 players.

If you also listened to that podcast you will note that they said orks did ok early and have really fallen off as more codices have come out.