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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

We can assume that we'll be getting new Buggies I think. That rumour engine pic has to be a Buggy right? Apart from that it's anyone's guess.

Agreed. At this point, I think it's a given that buggies and wartraks will be re-done, but with the loss of looted wagons, I'm hoping for an Ork MBT. Goodness we need one.

My secret inner genie wants clan specific units, but i'll take clan special rules as a first step.

I have 70 painted Ork boyz and i'd lose my sanity if I had to paint another 130 just to be competitive at this point.

Painting 200 orks is a process that should take years. If you want to start an ork army, paint it all at decent standards, and play it at competitive levels you'll probably lose your sanity for real.

It took me 2-3 years to collect (I mean buy, assemble and paint) 1500 points of orks when I started the hobby, if you want an army for tournament in a short time buy second hand models.

In fact if you consider all the infantry models and not only the boyz, 200 bodies (not considering vehicles) are quite standard in an ork collection.

KillerOfMany wrote:
Orks need a sniper!
I feel like Eadbanger could get 48" and target Character special rule, "slain" might be too good, just D6 mortal wounds after a 2+ wound roll? I like the idea of it being stopped by enemy psyker's, like "NO, don't pop my leaders head!"

That's way to good, plus a psyker wouldn't be able to stop it from 48" range. The best psychic power that can freely snipe characters is d3 mortal wounds on WC8 in 18".

'eadbanger is simply to much of a high-risk-high-reward power. Why risk a 5+ roll to instantly blow up a chapter master if you are almost guaranteed to kill him with two smites?

I'd just drop the toughness test and do d3 damage instead auto-death. You keep the character and special weapon sniping, but it's no longer a gamble for weak models like GEQ.

8th edition. Greatest edition for Ork competitive play revival since 3rd.

I'm finally painting ork boys that I bought when they came in boxes of 16.

Enjoy the good times while they last gentlemen - cause when the lean times come again they'll last another generation.

1) You can paint 200 boyz over a couple of weekends if you structure the task appropriately, and paint in large batches. Say, prime 50 orks, undercoat 50 boyz, apply washes on 50 boyz, highlight skintone on 50 boyz, highlight pants on 50 boyz etc. You get the idea. I am not saying that you should, or that it will be fun. Just that, if you are painting a lot of models one miniature at a time, then you are making things difficult for yourself.

2) Orks really don't need snipers. We have some above average snipers in Stormboyz and the Dakkajet, but character sniping is rarely a worthwhile strategy in 8th. Scouts and Rangers are good because they can infitrate, which is important for a number of reasons, but sniping is not one of them. The assassins can deal out some damage, but just as often they are a point sink with no real impact.

3) Orks biggest weakness is durability. At best we have medium durability, but in some situations our stuff just gets deleted. I would like some spells or stratagems that could give our units an extra point of Toughness, -1 to hit for a turn, universal cover when close to someting, 4+ ramshackle for a turn, -1 Damage to a vehicle for a turn... etc. For example

Klouds of dust and diesel fumes: 2 CP. At the end of your own movement phase select a unit of Bikers or a Vehicle that has moved at least 12". Until your next turn subtract 1 from all hit rolls that targets any unit within 3" of the selected unit in the shooting phase.

Grot target practice: 1 CP. At the end of your own movement phase select one of your units within 1" of a friendly unit of gretchin. Until your next turn whenever the selected unit loses a wound roll a D6. On a 4+ the unit of gretchin suffers the wound instead.

4) I would also like a bit of Ork craziness, allthough in moderation: Like the abillity of grots to board enemy vehicles and take them over, or the abillity of boyz to toss grot models D6 inches instead of shooting, or the abillity of weirdboyz to swap powers with enemy psykers. Just for fun.

 Gargazz wrote:
8th edition. Greatest edition for Ork competitive play revival since 3rd.

I'm finally painting ork boys that I bought when they came in boxes of 16.

Enjoy the good times while they last gentlemen - cause when the lean times come again they'll last another generation.

I hate to be Debby Downer here, but I would rather get 4th edition back where I had 3-4 lists that were highly competitive but not necessarily top tier. being pigeon holed into a single style of game play is excessively boring.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Gargazz wrote:
8th edition. Greatest edition for Ork competitive play revival since 3rd.

I'm finally painting ork boys that I bought when they came in boxes of 16.

Enjoy the good times while they last gentlemen - cause when the lean times come again they'll last another generation.

I hate to be Debby Downer here, but I would rather get 4th edition back where I had 3-4 lists that were highly competitive but not necessarily top tier. being pigeon holed into a single style of game play is excessively boring.

Well, I certainly don't want 4th edition back, but I want trukk-boyz, trukk-manz, walker-wall, and speed-freaks to be viable strategies. I don't care for gunlines, though. If Ork long range shooting remains second-rate, then that is fine with me.

Bring back the old rule whereby if a unit of grots is between an enemy firing unit and a unit of ork infantry which are the target, the orks count as being in cover but every successful save they make results in one dead grot.

pismakron wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Gargazz wrote:
8th edition. Greatest edition for Ork competitive play revival since 3rd.

I'm finally painting ork boys that I bought when they came in boxes of 16.

Enjoy the good times while they last gentlemen - cause when the lean times come again they'll last another generation.

I hate to be Debby Downer here, but I would rather get 4th edition back where I had 3-4 lists that were highly competitive but not necessarily top tier. being pigeon holed into a single style of game play is excessively boring.

Well, I certainly don't want 4th edition back, but I want trukk-boyz, trukk-manz, walker-wall, and speed-freaks to be viable strategies. I don't care for gunlines, though. If Ork long range shooting remains second-rate, then that is fine with me.

All that jazz will be back... just be patient.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Bring back the old rule whereby if a unit of grots is between an enemy firing unit and a unit of ork infantry which are the target, the orks count as being in cover but every successful save they make results in one dead grot.

The problem is, that it is very often ambiguous when a unit is "between" two other units. But it is definitely a mechanism that is missing from the game: Like a ruin confers cover to units inside it, but a unit behind the ruin can be shot at with no penalty?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gargazz wrote:

pismakron wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Gargazz wrote:
8th edition. Greatest edition for Ork competitive play revival since 3rd.

I'm finally painting ork boys that I bought when they came in boxes of 16.

Enjoy the good times while they last gentlemen - cause when the lean times come again they'll last another generation.

I hate to be Debby Downer here, but I would rather get 4th edition back where I had 3-4 lists that were highly competitive but not necessarily top tier. being pigeon holed into a single style of game play is excessively boring.

Well, I certainly don't want 4th edition back, but I want trukk-boyz, trukk-manz, walker-wall, and speed-freaks to be viable strategies. I don't care for gunlines, though. If Ork long range shooting remains second-rate, then that is fine with me.

All that jazz will be back... just be patient.

I think I am I would definitely rather have a good codex in June than a so-so codex in February.

pismakron wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Bring back the old rule whereby if a unit of grots is between an enemy firing unit and a unit of ork infantry which are the target, the orks count as being in cover but every successful save they make results in one dead grot.

The problem is, that it is very often ambiguous when a unit is "between" two other units. But it is definitely a mechanism that is missing from the game: Like a ruin confers cover to units inside it, but a unit behind the ruin can be shot at with no penalty?

Draw a line from the middle of the firing unit to the middle of the target unit. Does it cut the intervening unit such that there is at max a (just a rough guess) 60:40 split on either side of the line? Then the intervening unit is in the way.

Alternatively, change it so that it is if the grot unit is within X" of the Orks and closer to the enemy than the orks are. Sure there'll be some potential silliness that could occur but that would probably be outweighed by the potential to have one unit of grots spread out over a wide line to provide cover to multiple units, albeit less effectively than multiple more condensed units as casualties will shrink the area the dispersed unit covers faster than the more compact ones.

There are already rules in 8th that are drawing lines across units, for example Mortarion's pistol. There should be no problem to apply this to gretchin.

I had a 1000 point game against Eldar last week. I was using a special force organization chart from the Adepticon Team Tournament, he was using half of an Eldar Team Tournament list that he got second place with in a local tournament a week prior.

My list:

Warboss w/ powerklaw, kombi-shoota w/ RL, attack squig
12x Shoota Boyz w/ nob w/ Kustom shoota
3x Deff Dreadz (2 w/ twin big shoota, 1 w/ twin RL)
1x Morkanaut w/ KFF

His list: (rangers are Alaitoc, bikes are saim-han)
Autarch on bike w/ lance
Illic Nightspear
Warlock on bike
Farseer on foot (also Alaitoc)
5x Bikes (3 shuriken cannons)
3x Bikes (2 or 3 scatter lasers)
3x bikes (2 or 3 scatter lasers)
3 units of 5 rangers
1 War Walker w/ 2 Shuriken Cannons
1 Vyper with Shuriken Cannons
(That's rediculous for 1000 points!)

Deployment: Dawn of War
Mission: The Scouring

Deployment:
I castle up at exactly 12" up on the left corner of the table, Warboss and Nobz are in the Morkanaut, Deff Dreadz within 9". He deploys two squads of Rangers, Illic and the Farseer in ruins opposite my force with the Vyper in support on their right. Bikes deploy in a long line across his deployment zone. Third squad of Rangers infiltrates and deploys in ruins in my deployment zone on the right flank. I finish deployment first and get the first turn.

Turn 1:
Orks:
Shoota boyz advance (left out in the open because I'm not smart....), walkers advance with the rangers in the ruins in their sites. Can't target the Alaitoc stuff (because BS 5+, advanced, and Alaitoc) so all the assault weaponry I have shoots at the largest squad of bikes, killing two. Not close enough to charge.

Eldar:
Bikes move up with the Autarch and Warlock in support. Injured group of bikes moves towards shoota boyz, all over bikes move to his left to angle off of my dread mob. War Walker pops up behind me in the left of my deployment zone. He shoots the war Walker, Vyper and three bikes at the boyz, vaporizing them. Everything else shoots at the Deff Dreadz and does...6 wounds on one. T7 and a 3+\5++ keep the dream alive!

Turn 2:
Orks:
My opponent had expected to kill at least one Deff Dread, and now finds himself out of position. One Dread breaks off to the left to go after the bikes that targeted the boyz, two go right after the other groups of bikes with the Morkanaut in tow. Shooting is better since I didn't advance this turn and the squad of bikes on his leftmost flank evaporate. Charges are declared all around, with the all of them being successful (7" was the longest charge and I had to use a CP reroll but I made them!). The dread on my left charges the bikes that killed the shoota boyz while the other two charge the other remaining squad of bikes. Violence ensues, and the bikes are soundly killed by all the whirring saw blades.

Eldar:
He doesn't move much. Vyper and War Walker inch forward for better angles. Shooting peels the last wound of the injured Dread and puts three on the dread in the center. Dread on the left flank takes 5 wounds from the Vyper and War Walker. He charges his Autarch and warlock into the injured dread, hoping to remove it from the game (this was a poor choice...). He manages to do a few more to it but can't kill it.

Turn Three:
Orks:
Injured dread in the left flank takes off for the war Walker in the backfield. Morkanaut waddles over to the combat between the dread, Autarch and warlock... Oh my... Shooting doesn't do much for me as most stuff is out of range. Dread on my left charges the war Walker, Morkanaut charges the combat. Both succeed. War Walker furiously kicks the shins on the injured dread causing another wound and the dread does 4 wounds in return. The dread and Morkanaut do unspeakable things to the Autarch and warlock, netting me slay the warlord. They consolidate towards the ruins with Illic, the Farseer and the Rangers.

Eldar:
The War Walker falls back from the combat with the dread. They shoot...a lot. They put a couple of wounds on the Morkanaut, who is surprisingly undamaged at this point, with pot shots from the Rangers in my backfield on the right flank. The Vyper shoots the dread near the war Walker, blowing it up and causing three mortal wounds to the Walker which was unfortunately just a bit too close...both are removed! The last dread near the Morkanaut also succumbs and is removed.

Turn Four:
Orks:
The boss and the Nobz disembark the Morkanaut for some Krumpin, and move about 12" (3" disembark + 6" move + a few inches advance each) towards the ruins with his important stuff in it putting them in easy charge range. Morkanaut moves up. No shooting. Charges are successful and the Nobz attack the ranger squad on his left in the ruins (back up by the Farseer) and the Warboss attacks the Rangers on his right (backed up by Illic). The Nobz murder the Rangers and consolidate into the Farseer, surrounding him and the Warboss misses with everything and takes a wound for his trouble.

Eldar:
The Rangers fall back out of combat with the boss, but he uses a strategem that will allow them to shoot and so the boss takes another wound from their pistols. Vyper and squad of Rangers in the backfield on my right pull another wound of the Morkanaut. He charges Illic and the Rangers into the Warboss. Illic kills the Warboss, my Nobz kill the Farseer and consolidate about 2" away from Illic and his Rangers. At this point, my opponent concedes.

Ork victory! 10 to 7!

Lots of fun to play and I was pleasantly surprised by my list, although if he'd brought Dark Reapers the game would've gone much differently. I was able to capitalize on his mistakes and learned from a few of my own. Looking forward to tweaking a few things and trying it again!

I tend to believe that the most effective ork unit against flyers would be stormboyz, no?

The shooting just is not efficient enough with the -1 to hit effectively cutting everything's hit rate in half.

By contrast a full unit of stormboys with nob would absolutely destroy a flyer in one round.

In fact stormboyz seem pretty wonderful and versatile for that reason; I really wish there was an economical way of getting them. They seem to only sell them in packs of 5. I would love to see a plastic kit with 10 in the box or at least a 5-10 count upgrade sprue with the jetpacks.

I keep seeing tournament lists with armfulls of stormboys but seriously, where are they getting that many from.

 TedNugent wrote:
I tend to believe that the most effective ork unit against flyers would be stormboyz, no?

The shooting just is not efficient enough with the -1 to hit effectively cutting everything's hit rate in half.

By contrast a full unit of stormboys with nob would absolutely destroy a flyer in one round.

In fact stormboyz seem pretty wonderful and versatile for that reason; I really wish there was an economical way of getting them. They seem to only sell them in packs of 5. I would love to see a plastic kit with 10 in the box or at least a 5-10 count upgrade sprue with the jetpacks.

I keep seeing tournament lists with armfulls of stormboys but seriously, where are they getting that many from.

I'm too lazy to look up a datasheet for a flier right now so I'm just going to assume the stormboyz will be wounding on 5s (so the flier is toughness 5 through 7) and it has a 3+ save (because imperium.)

Stormboyz do not get the +1 to attack for having 20+ boyz so that's 29 boyz with 87 hits, 29 wounds, 9.6 unsaved from the boyz. Nob comes in, hits 1.5 times, hits 1.25, and if it goes through that's 1-3 more unsaved wounds for a total of 10 to 12 unsaved.

I must be doing my math wrong because I swore someone proved these guys only do like three wounds to flyers. Can someone double-check me on that?

 TedNugent wrote:
I tend to believe that the most effective ork unit against flyers would be stormboyz, no?

No. Just get any semi-decent player to proxy anything as strom raven and try to destroy it with 30 storm boyz.

By contrast a full unit of stormboys with nob would absolutely destroy a flyer in one round.

Best case 90 attacks turn into 7 wounds, which doesn't kill any flyer.

In fact stormboyz seem pretty wonderful and versatile for that reason; I really wish there was an economical way of getting them. They seem to only sell them in packs of 5. I would love to see a plastic kit with 10 in the box or at least a 5-10 count upgrade sprue with the jetpacks.

I keep seeing tournament lists with armfulls of stormboys but seriously, where are they getting that many from.

Well, they aren't any more expensive than buying Magnus and Mortarion, I guess.

Personally, when faced with the decision of buying 5 KMK to keep my ork army competitive, I simply took that money and got myself 1500 points of death guard instead. And not just some cheap left-overs from the starter boxes off ebay, but a competitive list built from new kits bought in an actual brick&mortar store.
The only thing left to do is convince my game group to let me count boyz as cultists

Money per points is definitely a problem for ork armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Stormboyz do not get the +1 to attack for having 20+ boyz so that's 29 boyz with 87 hits, 29 wounds, 9.6 unsaved from the boyz. Nob comes in, hits 1.5 times, hits 1.25, and if it goes through that's 1-3 more unsaved wounds for a total of 10 to 12 unsaved.

I must be doing my math wrong because I swore someone proved these guys only do like three wounds to flyers. Can someone double-check me on that?

29 are 87 attacks, not 87 hits

So 87 attacks, 58 hits, 19 wounds, 6.3 damage

Those damage figures still compare favorably to any shooting in the dex. Anything short of a KMK in the index is sort of gak tbh.

Am I missing something?

Stormboyz are good, but they are fairly useless against fliers. It is trivially easy to stay out of charge range with a flyer that has 50" movement. And you cannot lock a Stormraven in melee, you have to kill or cripple it in one turn.

 TedNugent wrote:
Those damage figures still compare favorably to any shooting in the dex. Anything short of a KMK in the index is sort of gak tbh.

Am I missing something?

Yes, two things:

First, you need to catch the flyer - twice. Even with 12"+d6 charge range, on average your just barely outrun a plane moving at minimum speed of 20". Chances are even lower if you consider that you probably won't attempt a 10"+ charge against a model with hurricane bolters or warp scythes. In addition, the flyer is going to start in their deployment zone, far back in their deployment zone. If you go first, you have next to no chance to reach it turn one. If you go second, you might not have storm boyz left to charge it. And even assuming you do catch it once, it can move 31" the next turn and is guaranteed to be out of charge range.

Second, you will most likely not have 30 storm boyz when you catch the flier, and even if you do, there is a good chance that you won't get all of them into combat. Worst case a storm raven flies up to your storm boyz and simply shoots 15 of them dead and then kill another 4 through overwatch.

Now those were excellent points Jidmah.

One thing you can do with 30 Stormboyz is to da jump them next to a flyer, and then try to make the 9" charge. It is not an especially great idea, but it is probably more viable than chasing after a Stormraven with regular movement.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
I tend to believe that the most effective ork unit against flyers would be stormboyz, no?

The shooting just is not efficient enough with the -1 to hit effectively cutting everything's hit rate in half.

By contrast a full unit of stormboys with nob would absolutely destroy a flyer in one round.

In fact stormboyz seem pretty wonderful and versatile for that reason; I really wish there was an economical way of getting them. They seem to only sell them in packs of 5. I would love to see a plastic kit with 10 in the box or at least a 5-10 count upgrade sprue with the jetpacks.

I keep seeing tournament lists with armfulls of stormboys but seriously, where are they getting that many from.

I'm too lazy to look up a datasheet for a flier right now so I'm just going to assume the stormboyz will be wounding on 5s (so the flier is toughness 5 through 7) and it has a 3+ save (because imperium.)

Stormboyz do not get the +1 to attack for having 20+ boyz so that's 29 boyz with 87 hits, 29 wounds, 9.6 unsaved from the boyz. Nob comes in, hits 1.5 times, hits 1.25, and if it goes through that's 1-3 more unsaved wounds for a total of 10 to 12 unsaved.

I must be doing my math wrong because I swore someone proved these guys only do like three wounds to flyers. Can someone double-check me on that?

I did it up in another thread. Storm-raven is a pretty common sight in 8th, so let's work from that. T7 and 14 Wounds with a 3+ save means Stormboyz need to cause, on average, 42 wounds to bring a Stormraven down. Stormboyz wound the Raven on a 5+, so they need to hit it 126 times to cause 42 wounds. Since Stormboyz hit on a 3+, that works out to 189 attacks. Since a Stormboy has 3 attacks, that works out to 63 Stormboyz, or slightly over 3 full squads, to take out a single Stormraven.

You can throw in a Nob with a Power Klaw, but on average they do around 2 dmg a turn, so not a noticeable increase.

Well, I keep looking at the shooting units against flyers and everything short of the KMK ends up being garbage just in terms of the raw mathhammer.

I understand that everyone is getting hung up on an easy hyperbole, but realistically what pure shooting options do orks have to take out a stormraven?

Presently, Orkz have no reliable, competitive answer to flyers or T8 vehicles. Your best bet is, as always, ignore them and target everything else, if possible, you can always tarpit T8 units, 30 boyz with a Nob/BC cost 187pts (Cant remember new cost of BC) and most T8 Vehicles are significantly more expensive, so its a win for the Orkz overall.

Stormboyz are just a tease when it says they can target flyers because 1: you wont catch it, 2: even if by some miracle you do, you don't have enough damage to kill it, and 3: it will fly away and gun you down easily. A single storm raven can kill 1/2 of a 30 strong Stormboyz unit in 1 turn of shooting at max range, which means on average you will lose at least another 3-4 from morale, leaving you with 11-12 Stormboyz. Next turn? game over, and god help you if you try to assault the damned thing and it gets any kind of accuracy bonus.

Yeah, unfortunately, for Stormboyz to be a viable anti-flyer solution they'd need a special rule where they are able to prevent units with the FLY keyword to be unable to fall back when engaged in combat with them. Could be a cool, but unlikely, mechanic to implement in our upcoming codex.

Are there any opinions on Grot-Tanks? And what would be the best weapon for it, and what application they might have, if you had to take it (other than to sell it on ebay).

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:
Are there any opinions on Grot-Tanks? And what would be the best weapon for it, and what application they might have, if you had to take it (other than to sell it on ebay).

Unfortunately they are crap this edition as well :( I love the model, I love the idea of them but they are just terrible. Compare them to the nearest unit in the index, Wartracks/buggies.

Grot tanks are 36pts for a T5, 4Wounds 4+ save with a 6+ Invuln, They come stock with a Big Shoota. Not overly impressive in anyway,

The Warbuggies on the other hand are 43pts, are T5, 5wounds, 4+ save and have Twice as many attacks at WS3+, they have a Twin Big Shoota which actually hits about 33% more then the Grot Tank its faster, has Ere we go AND has outrider special ability.

Anyone know if the boss nob upgrade for boyz grants keepin' order?

 davou wrote:
Anyone know if the boss nob upgrade for boyz grants keepin' order?

It does not because Keepin' Order is not a rule that Boyz mobs get.

Would lootas be ok against flyers? They have the range at least. 10 of them would get 10-30 shots -> 2-5 hits -> 1-3 wounds -> 0-4 dmg expected after saves. Ok that was terrible... But with some luck maybe?