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Niiru wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
sadly there is no comparison between letters and crushers, they fill exactly same role,but letters are more point wise and infantry with objsec, not a thing to underestimate, right now the meta is heavily shifted towards big guns for the big guys (at least here in italy) and mono infantry lists have an edge over mechanized or multiwounds models. Btw crushers models are really cool i own 6 painted.

Pretty much this. But even in a casual perspective, it's almost dumb to ever go Crushers. You almost only bring Crushers as an intentional handicap, it's that bad.

Are there any worthwhile choices in the Daemons codex, other than the boring bloodletter bomb?

And Daemon princes of course, but taking more than 2 or 3 of those is not very sportsmanlike.

I'm already taking 30 cultists and 3x3 nurglings, and that's all the chaff models I want. Rather fill my list up with interesting elites than dozens of interchangeable gribblies.

Before the FAQ I would have said Tzeentch DP with impossible robe. Infact a 3++ still isn't bad.

I basically use nurglings + hqs and then the rest of my lists are CSM. I've alwaysbegun a sucker for big monsters like skarbrand though.

DPs are god tier. All deamon troops apart from daemonettes are amazing for respective roles, be it screening, screen clearing, scouting, melee damage. Heralds are all also pretty good (except Khorne) to unluck the best spells for daemons. Finally if you go Nurgle you bring the tri-herald combo and sometimes epidemius.

Warosaur wrote:
I wish they would have worded that FAQ stratagem better. It says the units receive the benefits of cover not that they are in cover.

so you could argue that iron warriors/imperiall fist and units that ignore cover doesnt get a benefit against that stratagem.

that's all in twisted mind of players who want argue on anything, is not GW fault at all, is clear how stratagem works, only a win to all costs player can argue about it


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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
DPs are god tier. All deamon troops apart from daemonettes are amazing for respective roles, be it screening, screen clearing, scouting, melee damage. Heralds are all also pretty good (except Khorne) to unluck the best spells for daemons. Finally if you go Nurgle you bring the tri-herald combo and sometimes epidemius.

always undecided between 30 letters or 30 pinks in my "almost" mononurgle list, lately im going for letters at least anything they charge they kill, btw K herald with crown is decent.

If you don't run epidemius - why not both

Warosaur wrote:
I wish they would have worded that FAQ stratagem better. It says the units receive the benefits of cover not that they are in cover.

so you could argue that iron warriors/imperiall fist and units that ignore cover doesnt get a benefit against that stratagem.

Pretty obvious to anyone not intentionally being a prick that they'd ignore the cover save bonus either way

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
If you don't run epidemius - why not both

points/cp's shortage im testing for a 1750pts tournament right now ,where i cant reply detachments so i would need 6 cp out of 9 (battalion+supreme command), just to deep strike both of them and changecaster not sure if worth, but the idea to flood to table with 150 models (90 pb's 30 letters and 30 pinks) is interesting

this is what im testing im switching Ts supreme with Nurgle demons supreme




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ecdain wrote:

Warosaur wrote:
I wish they would have worded that FAQ stratagem better. It says the units receive the benefits of cover not that they are in cover.

so you could argue that iron warriors/imperiall fist and units that ignore cover doesnt get a benefit against that stratagem.

Pretty obvious to anyone not intentionally being a prick that they'd ignore the cover save bonus either way

that's what i meant

So I'm currently running Khorne Daemons with allied World Eaters (my only shooting attack is the grenades on my 'Zerkers, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!) but I'm looking at expanding into some other melee Daemon stuff. How are Fiends? The ability to run across the board and lock stuff down while my Khorne stuff gets into position seems pretty OK, and forcing an enemy unit to be -1 to hit with some psychic shenanigans seems pretty cool too. Would a detachment of 3 units of Fiends with a Slaanesh Herald be really bad, or is it an okay-ish idea? If so, how many Fiends per unit?

Do note that I'm aware that mono-Khorne without any shooting support is a bad idea, I just want to see how far I can stretch the concept before I bang my head into a wall in frustration and start adding Obliterators.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So I'm currently running Khorne Daemons with allied World Eaters (my only shooting attack is the grenades on my 'Zerkers, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!) but I'm looking at expanding into some other melee Daemon stuff. How are Fiends? The ability to run across the board and lock stuff down while my Khorne stuff gets into position seems pretty OK, and forcing an enemy unit to be -1 to hit with some psychic shenanigans seems pretty cool too. Would a detachment of 3 units of Fiends with a Slaanesh Herald be really bad, or is it an okay-ish idea? If so, how many Fiends per unit?

Do note that I'm aware that mono-Khorne without any shooting support is a bad idea, I just want to see how far I can stretch the concept before I bang my head into a wall in frustration and start adding Obliterators.

If your opponent isn’t used to Fiends, expect hilarity if the rest of your army can execute a few T1 charges. I’ve been using the very Detachment you describe with a Daemon engines rushdown list and it is a hilarious (and fairly casual-viable) gimmick.

See, i run 2 detachments of deamons when i run them. 1 Undivided for the bloodletter bomb, deamon princes of khorne, and pink horror bombs, nurglings. My second is always pure slaanesh with as many demonettes as i can in groups of 10 and heralds / masque. I find them incredibly useful at speed 7 + advance + charge.

Also keep this in mind. If you make a detachment that is pure you get the loci. The units effected by the loci dont have to come from that detachment. So you could supreme command slaanesh hq's, supreme command khorne hq's, then do a large force of undivided with all the demonettes / bloodletters / pinks / nurglings in with some tzeentch hq's because the tzeentch loci is stupid for what they are. If it worked outside of cc it would be awsome.

Not advocating that plan, just pointing it out as a way to creativly make a force.

Was considering that, but since I run a Bloodthirster and a Prince already I'm spending quite heavily on HQs as it is. Fiends seem good because you can run them as singletons to fill out a Vanguard detachment with just one Herald and three Fiends, and then add Fiends to taste..

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So I'm currently running Khorne Daemons with allied World Eaters (my only shooting attack is the grenades on my 'Zerkers, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!) but I'm looking at expanding into some other melee Daemon stuff. How are Fiends? The ability to run across the board and lock stuff down while my Khorne stuff gets into position seems pretty OK, and forcing an enemy unit to be -1 to hit with some psychic shenanigans seems pretty cool too. Would a detachment of 3 units of Fiends with a Slaanesh Herald be really bad, or is it an okay-ish idea? If so, how many Fiends per unit?

Do note that I'm aware that mono-Khorne without any shooting support is a bad idea, I just want to see how far I can stretch the concept before I bang my head into a wall in frustration and start adding Obliterators.

That seems great! Personally I do WE supported by Khorne daemons. I mixed in some long range support to varying degrees of success. My favorite thing is to take a big distraction (Klos, gbs) alongside my bezekers and bloodletters. Just massive melee threat saturation.

Fiends is not something I thought to try. They lock people in combat, yes? Seems strong.

While we're on the subject, are any of the Slaanesh relics worthwhile? I'm currently running the Armour of Scorn on my 'Thirster (because of course I am) and the Talisman of Burning Blood on my CSM Khorne Prince. The Slothful Claws seem alright, S6 attacks on a Herald is nothing to scoff at, and D2 is always welcome.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
While we're on the subject, are any of the Slaanesh relics worthwhile? I'm currently running the Armour of Scorn on my 'Thirster (because of course I am) and the Talisman of Burning Blood on my CSM Khorne Prince. The Slothful Claws seem alright, S6 attacks on a Herald is nothing to scoff at, and D2 is always welcome.

Soulstealer is pretty hilarious against certain armies. Being able to heal a crazy amount of wounds per turn just by slaughtering screens and chaff is a good way to get even better mileage out of your HQ!

Just FYI, Slaanesh fiends are terrible. Their "enemies can't retreat" ability is next to meaningless since you can just surround instead...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Just FYI, Slaanesh fiends are terrible. Their "enemies can't retreat" ability is next to meaningless since you can just surround instead...

Or alternatively, NOT spend all your points on surrounding a unit, and simply drop one fiend on multiple units instead, imagine that. Get creative.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Just FYI, Slaanesh fiends are terrible. Their "enemies can't retreat" ability is next to meaningless since you can just surround instead...

Or alternatively, NOT spend all your points on surrounding a unit, and simply drop one fiend on multiple units instead, imagine that. Get creative.

Or allows you to actually attack the target unit rather than just pile in taking hits. And works even when enemy prevents you from surrounding.

Uh... what? I'm not sure how you're playing, but I can deepstrike 3D6 charge my 30 letters, send 3 to a scout squad(that I didn't charge) and 27 to do kill the unit I want to kill (some of those 3 can sometimes make it into combat too).

Or I could bring fiends who have to charge 9'' from deepstrike or are just shot off the table. The burden on proof is on you, not me: Bloodletters see plenty of competitive play, Fiends see ZERO. Why pay for a unit with bad damage, bad durability AND bad mobility to do something you can do for free pretty much? Yes, it's still bad mobility as fiends can't go through ruins (which are usually the only things providing line of sight)

never seen a valid use of fiends outside garagehammer

Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.

As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?

I’m a massive fan of Fiends and use them in most my games and absolutely agree they’re a weak gimmick unit. They’re situationally viable if your opponent doesn’t know how to handle them; I’ve wrecked ITC lists with garage lists through the element of surprise, as competitive players often don’t encounter them. Expect that to change with their upcoming plastic release, which if it doesn’t entail a durability hike or points drop will only reduce their ‘secret weapon’ status with a month or so of attention.

On the ‘situationally viable’ note: if you can draw enemy units into charging Nurglings, they can be a game winner that enables you to protect faster beatsticks in melee. Major emphasis on ‘if’ and ‘can’.


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Perhaps their strongest ability is being a cheap tax unit when you want to take a mounted Herald to allow Maulerfiends and Defilers to advance and charge. Even then, a Daemonette battalion can be a lot more effective.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.

For a while I had a mounted Slerald in my list. My idea for her was to zoom upfield and take out Scouts, while my DPs focus on the real threats. Seems like good idea.
It. Does. Not. Work.

Her speed means that she quickly loses character shielding from your other units, and once that happens she is DEAD. She doesn't have enough attacks to reliably kill a marine scout squad, not to mention something like Nurglings or an Infantry Squad.

I wasn't going to use them to charge up at first though, just as support psykers while I wait for my Letterbombs to show up. Once those are on the boards the Heralds should be free to zoom around and provide support to the real workhorses by making stuff have -1 to hit or similar.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.

As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?

that detachment lost the loci, obliterators doesn't have the demon faction keyword so detachment isn't anymore a demon detachment

 blackmage wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.

As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?

that detachment lost the loci, obliterators doesn't have the demon faction keyword so detachment isn't anymore a demon detachment

Obliterators do have the Daemon faction keyword, that's why I asked in the first place.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.

As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?

that detachment lost the loci, obliterators doesn't have the demon faction keyword so detachment isn't anymore a demon detachment

Obliterators do have the Daemon faction keyword, that's why I asked in the first place.

It got taken away from them when the Daemons codex came out. Look at the CSM Codex errata

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.

As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?

that detachment lost the loci, obliterators doesn't have the demon faction keyword so detachment isn't anymore a demon detachment

Obliterators do have the Daemon faction keyword, that's why I asked in the first place.

they dont have anymore

Oh, never mind then.

Woo nerfs.

Zarakynel is even worse.

Time to play AoS boys, where the Exalted Keeper is actually not trash.

It was almost fun while it lasted.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Woo nerfs.

Zarakynel is even worse.

Time to play AoS boys, where the Exalted Keeper is actually not trash.

It was almost fun while it lasted.

goodbye have fun

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Woo nerfs.

Zarakynel is even worse.

Time to play AoS boys, where the Exalted Keeper is actually not trash.

It was almost fun while it lasted.

...Were the Forgeworld models even REMOTELY playable before now anyways? Heck, was the Keeper of Secrets even viable in the first place?