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Niiru wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.

Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.

I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.

2-3 turns of shooting? try 1-2 (unless you think 22 +3d6 inches won't get the drones close enough to charge anything).It's a good thing those blood-letters wont take any shots while they are in reserve, because they die to stiff breeze. This is why I am saying these units preform different functions. I can expect letters to be able to drop down turn 2 and kill just about whatever they can charge. I can't expect them to; survive for very long after that point, reposition quickly after coming down, do any minor shooting, or attract and absorb any firepower turn 1. I can expect drones do all these things. Sure they can't get an easy charge out of deepstrike, or be as effective in CC, but that's why they are a different unit than letters. There is more to this game than what unit can "get to combat and kill stuff" the best. To put it bluntly, you are underestimating the value of maneuverability and durability.

I'll finish my point with this. Unit flexibility is a trait that easy to underestimate in the land of theory, but very valuable in actual games. If you haven't had the chance to field a large amount drones I'd highly recommend it. They will likely pleasantly surprise you.

Try hammer and anvil. You can be 36''+ away from someone, so no 22+3d6 won't make it. Your opponent has no reason to deploy on the front line to give you free charges unless he's also running a melee army.
Bloodletters are actually OK at surviving since if they can be shot on my opponent's turn - I did something very very wrong. Bloodletters are IMO better at repositioning themselves after charge because they go 6+2d6+1 charge, they can go through ruins in fight phase and they have small bases so they can fit through gaps. The minor shooting is honesstly irrelevant. I don't want anything to attract and absorb any firepower turn 1 that aren't Plaguebearers.
Fast FLY unit durability doesn't matter nearly as much. They can easily hop arround between ruins (with LoS blocking first floor) and be immune to fire that way (See ynnari shining spears). And plague drones, unless you're running them MSU do not have maneuverability. They cover so much board space that you can't hide them and you can't sniper characters with them.

To explain the lack of maneuverability - plague drones allow your opponent to make a giant circle around his characters because your 7-9 plague drones won't be able to fit inside without being within -1 of the enemy or without being outside unit coherency. Small bases, like shining spears limit your opponent's movement. They have to very carefully surround their characters.

PS: I don't think plague drones are bad btw. They're fine.

Well I mean... I'm not sure it's possible for someone to put their entire army 36" away, wouldn't they have to fit their whole gunline (and they'd have to be playing a totally static gunline, so Mars Admech or Girlyman) into the very corner of their deployment area. Which would pretty much mean their whole army would be maybe 2 Dunecrawlers + Cawl.

Realistically, at least some of their army will be ~24-30 inches away, and so it would be turn 2 charges pretty much every time.

Bloodletters would of course still be a little better if you pay to deepstrike them, as they'd be safe turn 1 and then have an almost guaranteed turn 2 charge with blood banner. But this costs 2 CP to pull off, which certainly adds to their cost, and if they do fail their charge (or when the opponent falls back next turn) they'll be deleted from the board by the gunline (as they'd only be able to charge chaff from deepstrike anyway more than likely, unless you've removed the chaff by then but that will be more likely a turn 3 charge making them slower).

Course this is a stupid argument you're making in general, because they're totally different units with totally different roles and strengths. I'm not sure why you wouldn't run them both.

Seconding all this.That being said I think he has proven that no logical argument is going to convince him that drones are a competitive choice. If I had to guess he has probably invested a lot of time and money on Plague bearers and Bloodletters in order to make a competitive daemon list. He hasn't ,however, likely invested much (or anything) into drones. So when I said Drones are the best unit in the codex, I was essentially challenging the competitiveness of his investments. People love anchoring themselves to their previous investments (as it's not too appealing to admit you might have been even partially wrong, nor is it fun to fork over more time and $$$). Therefore rather than admit he is/was wrong to discount drones, he has gone to increasingly extreme lengths to justify his position.

Case in point the 36 inch hammer and anvil point. You addressed how hard that would be to accomplish this in the first place, but when examine this idea further it gets even more ridiculous.
1) His plan means that the gunline army will be giving up the whole board to the daemons player. Simply put if my opponent's army only exist in a 12' area, that means they wont have any units in the rest of 60 inches of the table until after turn 2. Not normally a recipe for success in this game.
2) Very few armies care only about shooting. Yes Tau exists, but the majority of armies do damage in ways outside of shooting.
3) Shooting has range as well. A lot of shorter range guns won't be shooting at anything for a while being 36' from their opponents deployment zone.
4) This scenario happens around 1/6 games.

Many of these points by themselves completely ruin his argument, so why did I bother to point them all out? To illustrate my reasoning for why I assume he has a vested interest in disliking drones. To finish this let me review the order of events.

He made the point that drones have negative of having to take 2-3 turns of shooting before reaching combat.

I made counterpoint that this is likely incorrect due to the drones large amount of movement. Therefore they should expect 1-2 turns of shooting.

Now a completely unbiased thinker would cede the point.here. They might make the case that the 1-2 turns is still enough to make a large difference (I'd likely disagree with this, but there is some merit to that argument). Instead he doubled down on his previous statement by coming up with hammer and anvil example. Once people start using these types of arguments (ones which contain a ton of large holes in them), it's clear to me they have no interest in changing their mind.

I love how that "ruins my argument". 1-2 turns of getting shot at is not that different than 2-3 turns(it's still at least 2 turns 50% of the time instead of 0 turns 100% of the time for letters). And that was not my main reason of not taking them. I'm not taking them because I only want to give plaguebearers as targets while pinks and letters wait in deepstrike. Also they don't fill a role for me

And I've said 2-3 turns because that's how my 4 games went where I've tried them. Most of my opponents run gunlines(admech, gunline alpha legion)

Ill just say that in my experience, gunlines have never had much success against my army of WE and Khorne Daemons. I dont just spam letters mind, in fact Zerker buses are my bread and butter. Ive faced Tau, admech, knights, IG, heck even Sisters of Battle. I think the only three things ive never faced so fsr are Genestealer cult, and Harlequinns.

Trust when I say that 1-2 turns of shooting mean absolute jack diddly if you bring the right tactics.

Zerkers are pretty good.
However when I make a tournament list, I make it as noninterrative as possible: the opponent can only shoot -2 T4 4++ plaguebearers for 2 turns so he can't get kill 1 and I get kill 1 and kill more with smite equivalent spam.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I love how that "ruins my argument". 1-2 turns of getting shot at is not that different than 2-3 turns(it's still at least 2 turns 50% of the time instead of 0 turns 100% of the time for letters). And that was not my main reason of not taking them. I'm not taking them because I only want to give plaguebearers as targets while pinks and letters wait in deepstrike.

And I've said 2-3 turns because that's how my 4 games went where I've tried them. Most of my opponents run gunlines(admech, gunline alpha legion)

Ok so say this rather than come up with that ridiculous hammer and anvil scenario. I'd say your best coast pairings results are the best argument against them, but I have a few counterpoints.

1) Plague drones aren't that popular. Likely due to price (GW charges 180$ for 9, far too expensive for most).
2) Many pure Daemon players are running pure horde lists, which plague drones are bad in.
3) Not sure If I totally trust your data. I can name a big event right off the bat (bug eater) that was won with plague drones. Additionally this data doesn't include any British tournaments, where I hear drones are preforming quite well in.

Apparently Blightlords are also bad, but they were also used to win a major tournament by Hooson . That win really, REALLY upset the meta tournament community, so much that people said the player was just some chump who got lucky. He has a history of taking bad units and winning tournaments. He was the one who showed that PBC are good units, and now they are hailed as one of the best units in the book.

Plague drones are dumb expensive, and only good when they reach that +$100 price point. Like Salt Donkey said, that is just too pricey, but they are still sweet models, and very useful in games.

You make tournament lists according to your meta. As you said, 40k is not huge where you are, so tournaments are not going to have the high end meta. Yet you talk like you are an authority on national level GTs, Your attitude towards other player's is why you are on ignore lists. What you do isn't what works for everyone, and your experiences are not universal. Your attitude has brought this thread completely off the rails, as you seem to ignore the fact that other players have different experiences.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I love how that "ruins my argument". 1-2 turns of getting shot at is not that different than 2-3 turns(it's still at least 2 turns 50% of the time instead of 0 turns 100% of the time for letters). And that was not my main reason of not taking them. I'm not taking them because I only want to give plaguebearers as targets while pinks and letters wait in deepstrike. Also they don't fill a role for me

And I've said 2-3 turns because that's how my 4 games went where I've tried them. Most of my opponents run gunlines(admech, gunline alpha legion)

To add to my previous point, I realise that a bloodletter bomb would actually cost 3CP and not 2CP, which is even more of a cost. Worth it, perhaps, but CP are not that easy to come by for a lot of lists.

Also, your maths are wrong again. Plague Drones won't take 2 turns of fire "at least" before a charge, in most games it'll be 2 turns of fire "at most". It might be a pedantic correction, but it makes a lot of difference.

So, generally speaking, "at most", Plague Drones would take 2 turns of fire 50% of the time (against gunline armies), and 1 turn of fire against armies with a melee component.
Bloodletters also do NOT have a 100% chance of taking 0 rounds of fire. Even with deepstriking, spending their 3CP, they will only make their charges 74% of the time. If you spend more points on a Herald, and a pure khorne detachment for the locus (which all adds to their cost, which plague drones do not require), then it goes up to around 90%. It's pretty damn good odds, but 90% is not 100%. Sometimes you'll miss the charge, and your 'letters will die and do nothing that game.

While plague drones are much more likely to survive a turn or two of shooting, and still put out their damage. Plus you get 3CP and around what... ~100-200 extra points to spend on other things, depending on how you built out your khorne detachment / heralds.

Still not arguing that bloodletters are bad, they're amazing at what they do, but that doesn't make plague drones bad. Once again, different roles entirely, its comparing apples to iphones. But you seem determined, and I wasn't going to let the bad maths and hyperbole stand. Someone impressionable might read it and think bloodletters have a 100% chance to make charges!

So trying to get back onto a healthy, friendly topic here, is the Soul Grinder worth even bothering with atm? Or is the Defiler still leagues more useful? To be clear, im either running this as a tzeentch or khorne model.

Blightlords were tried after BAO and never succeeded again. They actually got turned into a joke. They are not good. Don got lucky with his matchups and he's a great general to boost.

And at least 2 turns of shooting 50% of the time is accurate because if you think 1-2 before charges it is 2 turns 50% of the time, however sometimes it is 2-3 turns, so it is at least 2 turns of shooting.

And I always take skullreaver DP because that artefact is the best we have. So letters will have the reroll.

And why are you all stuck on this part of the argument? It was a list of reasons to not take plague drones and the MOST IMPORTANT was to make my opponent have only ONE target - the -2 to hit 4++ plaguebearers. That makes my opponent's anti-tank very inefficient and does not get them a kill for 1-3 turns which gives me a big VP advantage.
As long as this part doesn't change I see no reason to take anything with more than 1 wound that's not a character or can't hide(nurglings)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:
So trying to get back onto a healthy, friendly topic here, is the Soul Grinder worth even bothering with atm? Or is the Defiler still leagues more useful? To be clear, im either running this as a tzeentch or khorne model.

Soul Grinder is terrible. Defiler is just bad so he's better.

Does it seem like I call 80% of the units in our codex terrible? Only because it's true and I hate it.
We have AMAZING troops: best screen in the game, one of the best melee units in chaos, one of the best anti-horde units in chaos, the only scouts in chaos, the cheapest troop in chaos - and everything else(Except HQs that buff those troops) is complete TRASH. Top players echo my sentiment - they call the CD codex one of the worst codexes in the game not because you can't win competitive games with it, but because only troops+HQ support are good in it (And maybe plague drones. I don't use them because of my "you can't interract with me" strat, but they are definitelly in between troops and everything else in the codex).
I wish I had tyranids instead :(
But all 3 of my other armies are low tier so I'm forced to play CD, who are the most boring of the 4 but are by far more competitive. And no I don't play suboptimal factions or units in tournaments unless they are joke tournaments. I hope Ork codex changes this.

im playing codex demons since release and sadly i must agree, troops and HQ are the only good units in codex the rest is subpar or totally inefficient, you can play things like drones or flamers screamers but they aren't so great,of course im talking about competitve play, in casual you can play lot more things.

I always respect someone who calls most units bad rather than someone who thinks every unit has a place.
It's a big sign that the person knows what they're talking about.
Take the best player in the world Nick Nanavati for example:
"70% of the marine codex simply being overcosted"

He even called the Bloodletter bomb bad. I'll try to find out why today or tomorrow.

The Bloodletter bomb is "bad" because its a one turn strategy most of the time. You spend roughly a quarter to a third of your CP and 200ish points to annihilate a couple units, but then the letter squad is basically wet tissue in the middle of the board.

How about two BL bombs in 1k?

 vaklor4 wrote:
The Bloodletter bomb is "bad" because its a one turn strategy most of the time. You spend roughly a quarter to a third of your CP and 200ish points to annihilate a couple units, but then the letter squad is basically wet tissue in the middle of the board.

It's nowehere near as bad as other units Chaos Daemons have or else it wouldn't be the 10th most successful Chaos unit (5th Chaos Daemon unit bellow Nurglings, plaguebearers, poxbringer and tz herald) data wise.
But the letter squad can only be dealt with melee. They're basically immortal to shooting. I've never had my bloodletters shot (Apart from overwatch) since I've learned to surround.

 vaklor4 wrote:
So trying to get back onto a healthy, friendly topic here, is the Soul Grinder worth even bothering with atm? Or is the Defiler still leagues more useful? To be clear, im either running this as a tzeentch or khorne model.

On paper you can get some interesting stuff. Make it Khorne and give it a claw and you have 12 attacks on the charge at S8 -2 D3, buuut, you are WS4, and are forced to take a Heavy weapon. Now I know this is unfair comparison, but as a DG/Daemon player, I make it all the time.
Bloat drone has 9 S8 attacks at -2, 2DMG and is also WS4 and T7. It has less wounds, but is cheaper, and can fly. Compared to say, a soul grinder of nurgle, which has 10 attacks with the claw, the drone wins hands down. If you want to spam T7 to try to pull fire from your greater daemons, they might have a little use. I think that being forced to take Phlegm bombardment is the big problem with soul grinders. Make it optional so we can drop the points a bit, maybe give us back the flamer option, or even the dumb gaze lol.

Defilers are, as you said it, just plain better. They don't have to split their attacks to use the iron claw claw and scourge, and the scourge is pretty dang nice, nicer than the warp claw. Soul grinders are still grossly overpriced, which is a bummer because the models are so insanely cool.

 vaklor4 wrote:
The Bloodletter bomb is "bad" because its a one turn strategy most of the time. You spend roughly a quarter to a third of your CP and 200ish points to annihilate a couple units, but then the letter squad is basically wet tissue in the middle of the board.

if that couple of units are like IK (cause 30 letters can annihilate it) im pretty happy to spend 200pts, i dont think the reason is just that, fact is perhaps, demons lack a serious shooting phase and against a skilled player letters usually risk to charge some screens and nothing more, btw i m using them and never regretted play them, they offer some forward board control, they hit very hard (they can potentially delete every unit they charge), they cant be ignored and in large numbers they are a nightmare for some lists lacking proper screening unit, my average tournament setup is a whole Korne battalion with herald with crown skullreaver Dp and 28+28+10 letters, it takes me 7 cp's up to 18, to AiP them, but 60 letters can wreak havocs anytime, i play only infantry and character below 10 wounds so heavy weapons aren't a issue for me.

Oh believe me bloodletter bomb IS good, im just trying to see his logic.

What I usually do is delay a letter bomb till t3, after ive split an army wide open with the can openner that is 3 Khorne Party Buses (patent pending) and 2 DPs. By then, the letters can easy get to what they want to.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
The Bloodletter bomb is "bad" because its a one turn strategy most of the time. You spend roughly a quarter to a third of your CP and 200ish points to annihilate a couple units, but then the letter squad is basically wet tissue in the middle of the board.

It's nowehere near as bad as other units Chaos Daemons have or else it wouldn't be the 10th most successful Chaos unit (5th Chaos Daemon unit bellow Nurglings, plaguebearers, poxbringer and tz herald) data wise.
But the letter squad can only be dealt with melee. They're basically immortal to shooting. I've never had my bloodletters shot (Apart from overwatch) since I've learned to surround.

Just a question about surrounding. How do you go about surrounding models? My bloodletter squads usually kill enough that they cant surround the models near where they charged. Also my opponemts generally will only have one unit in range at any of my drop down locations. Any advice?

Second this issue. Surrounding is a lot easier said than done, you cant just forgo attacks magically, and more often than not even after pile in, the enemy is either dead or able to escape. You make it sound like this is a 100% always tactic, but its a best case scenario.

And id just like to note that im not saying my letter bombs arent effective. They total knights, ruin primarchs and blitz through gunlines. But the scenario of more than 5-8 of my bloodletters in a unit even surviving is rare. Only time that happens is if theyre ignored, usually because my Lord of Skulls is plowing down the middle of the field.

The big weakness with bloodletter bombs is that they are really pricey. It's hard to run multiple bombs unless you have at least 2 battalions worth of CP.

One thing I'm starting to realize with bloodletters though is that they are still pretty killy without any buffs or while being under the 20-model threshold. With buffs it's typically overkill while without buffs it will still likely decimate whatever it touches. It's pretty much never efficient from the opponent's perspective to be in CC with bloodletters.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I always respect someone who calls most units bad rather than someone who thinks every unit has a place.
It's a big sign that the person knows what they're talking about.
Take the best player in the world Nick Nanavati for example:
"70% of the marine codex simply being overcosted"

He even called the Bloodletter bomb bad. I'll try to find out why today or tomorrow.

Ok so this where I fundamentally disagree with you. From my understanding of the game both statements “most units are bad” and “every unit has a place,” are incorrect to a degree. I have explanations for both. As far as “every unit has a place” there is some clear cases that contradict this. Units like space marine centurion devistators add no value to list. This is because their role can be taken by another unit in the codex (dreadnoughts) at a cheaper price, so there’s never a reason to take them. However, I want to point out that centurions are a Corner case. Notice that Nick uses the term “overcosted” not “bad” like you do. They are synonymous terms, but not identical like you are implying. For example, Sean Nayden just won a GP with the avatar of khaine, a clear example of an overcosted unit. The reason Sean was able was for three reasons.
1) the rest of his army used efficient units.
2) he is Sean Nayden
3) The avatar brings something to an elder Amy that no other unit does. His re-roll charge and fearless bubble.
Point 3 is the the big one here. 40k has a large selection of units, most things can do something that is purely unique to themselves. Sean proved that overcosted unit can be in a tournament winning list, provided the player using it can maximize its niche.

Why is this important? Because having a mindset like yours will stunt competive eventually. True you are probably more right than a person who believes “every unit has its place”, but being less wrong is still wrong. It’s no accident that players like Don and Sean can win big tournaments with overcosted units. Because they know a unit can still serve purposes despite not being the most, best, thing ever! As far as Daemons are concerned, yeah they are in bad spot because most units share similar roles, but that doesnt mean ever unit besides troops and characters are completely useless .

barboggo wrote:
The big weakness with bloodletter bombs is that they are really pricey. It's hard to run multiple bombs unless you have at least 2 battalions worth of CP.

One thing I'm starting to realize with bloodletters though is that they are still pretty killy without any buffs or while being under the 20-model threshold. With buffs it's typically overkill while without buffs it will still likely decimate whatever it touches. It's pretty much never efficient from the opponent's perspective to be in CC with bloodletters.

i run 3 battalions so i have 18cp's, what some players wont realize is in a whole infantry list which run 160 infantry model+characters, 2-3 bloodletters bombs are expendables, i mean you can kill 40-50 is ok i still have 100+ models on the table, if in the meanwhile my 60-70 letters kill half of your army im in any case im the the winner, they cost just 7pts each, and witha triple battalion you can afford to ds at leasr two whole 30 men units or 3 20 men units.

The letterbomb looks interesting but I’ve only got twenty and I’m just not inclined to get and paint another twenty-five to fund their CP consumption and eat overwatch, then cross my fingers that six months later they don’t join my Lictors in the loft.

We have constrained viable options not only because our non-Troops are so generally subpar, but also because 8ed’s detachments system is absolutely terrible if you want to use a few - or many varied - Daemons (or, for that matter, Imperial agents - my best mate loves her Inquisitor and Vindicare and hardly ever plays any more since soup lists got purged).

Unless you have Furies or Soul Grinders (or don’t care about Loci), the only detachments with any variety are Supreme Command, Nurgle Battalion, Tzeentch Battalion or Vanguard, and Slaanesh Outriders. We need like a Super Patrol Detachment where taking 1-2 of all unit types gets you three or so CP (I’d sooner field three Bloodcrushers as a tax unit and have a nice looking army than take more bloodletters), and we need like a Crusader universal Warlord Trait where everything in your Warlord’s Detachment gets their faction traits, and we need summoning rules that aren’t worse than useless.

Until then, my Daemon tactics will be ‘screen with PBs & Nurglings and have Epidemius soup up my daemon engines’ or ‘have Heralds on Steeds escort Maulerfiends & Defilers & Fiends into first turn charge range then cross my fingers’ or ‘send a Herald on Disc to soup up some Thousand Sons’ or ‘join the Sisters fans on the spectator stands when it’s Kill Team’.

Ugh. Sorry. Nurgle’s gifted me with a fever. Normal ‘hey let’s all be friendly and positive!!!’ attitude will restore when Isha’s sent me some cheat codes

 lindsay40k wrote:
The letterbomb looks interesting but I’ve only got twenty and I’m just not inclined to get and paint another twenty-five to fund their CP consumption and eat overwatch, then cross my fingers that six months later they don’t join my Lictors in the loft.

We have constrained viable options not only because our non-Troops are so generally subpar, but also because 8ed’s detachments system is absolutely terrible if you want to use a few - or many varied - Daemons (or, for that matter, Imperial agents - my best mate loves her Inquisitor and Vindicare and hardly ever plays any more since soup lists got purged).

Unless you have Furies or Soul Grinders (or don’t care about Loci), the only detachments with any variety are Supreme Command, Nurgle Battalion, Tzeentch Battalion or Vanguard, and Slaanesh Outriders. We need like a Super Patrol Detachment where taking 1-2 of all unit types gets you three or so CP (I’d sooner field three Bloodcrushers as a tax unit and have a nice looking army than take more bloodletters), and we need like a Crusader universal Warlord Trait where everything in your Warlord’s Detachment gets their faction traits, and we need summoning rules that aren’t worse than useless.

Until then, my Daemon tactics will be ‘screen with PBs & Nurglings and have Epidemius soup up my daemon engines’ or ‘have Heralds on Steeds escort Maulerfiends & Defilers & Fiends into first turn charge range then cross my fingers’ or ‘send a Herald on Disc to soup up some Thousand Sons’ or ‘join the Sisters fans on the spectator stands when it’s Kill Team’.

Ugh. Sorry. Nurgle’s gifted me with a fever. Normal ‘hey let’s all be friendly and positive!!!’ attitude will restore when Isha’s sent me some cheat codes

To be fair about the Loci, I very rarely even care about it. The Tzeentch one is the worst, and the Khorne one is only REALLY needed on Bloodthirsters and daemon princes, otherwise your letters are already charging 3d6 as is. I've ran a mixed detachment of Tzeentch and Khorne (2 letter bombs and a pink bomb with a Khorne D-prince and Tz-Herald) And it worked fantastic.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
The letterbomb looks interesting but I’ve only got twenty and I’m just not inclined to get and paint another twenty-five to fund their CP consumption and eat overwatch, then cross my fingers that six months later they don’t join my Lictors in the loft.

We have constrained viable options not only because our non-Troops are so generally subpar, but also because 8ed’s detachments system is absolutely terrible if you want to use a few - or many varied - Daemons (or, for that matter, Imperial agents - my best mate loves her Inquisitor and Vindicare and hardly ever plays any more since soup lists got purged).

Unless you have Furies or Soul Grinders (or don’t care about Loci), the only detachments with any variety are Supreme Command, Nurgle Battalion, Tzeentch Battalion or Vanguard, and Slaanesh Outriders. We need like a Super Patrol Detachment where taking 1-2 of all unit types gets you three or so CP (I’d sooner field three Bloodcrushers as a tax unit and have a nice looking army than take more bloodletters), and we need like a Crusader universal Warlord Trait where everything in your Warlord’s Detachment gets their faction traits, and we need summoning rules that aren’t worse than useless.

Until then, my Daemon tactics will be ‘screen with PBs & Nurglings and have Epidemius soup up my daemon engines’ or ‘have Heralds on Steeds escort Maulerfiends & Defilers & Fiends into first turn charge range then cross my fingers’ or ‘send a Herald on Disc to soup up some Thousand Sons’ or ‘join the Sisters fans on the spectator stands when it’s Kill Team’.

Ugh. Sorry. Nurgle’s gifted me with a fever. Normal ‘hey let’s all be friendly and positive!!!’ attitude will restore when Isha’s sent me some cheat codes

To be fair about the Loci, I very rarely even care about it. The Tzeentch one is the worst, and the Khorne one is only REALLY needed on Bloodthirsters and daemon princes, otherwise your letters are already charging 3d6 as is. I've ran a mixed detachment of Tzeentch and Khorne (2 letter bombs and a pink bomb with a Khorne D-prince and Tz-Herald) And it worked fantastic.

i can grant you loci is needed to letters too, 3d6 sometimes can reserve bad surprises, you have to be sure your letters will charge, or you invested 235pts in nothing, happens you roll 5-6 with 3 dice, i can grant you, that's why many lists rely on letters play a full korne detachment with herald

Yep I don't think I will ever run bloodletters without instrument + icon + banner of blood. Today a played a 1k point game against a new player, I show up and he has two flyrants and 6 hive guard in a 1k list. I was thinking to myself "good thing I brought daemons".

Deep struck 2x20 bloodletters and opponent concedes end of T3 after the Khorne DP/LoC each kill a flyrant and the letters wipe out the gants. I did lose a whole unit of 20 bloodletters on his turn though after rolling a 6 on my morale test. It's always so embarrassing watching my little Khorne daemons running away in fear.

Here are the probabilities for successfully charging bloodletters with various wargear.

Bloodletter Deep Strike and Charge Probabilities
27.78% with nothing
41.67% with Instrument of Chaos
47.84% with Locus of Rage
65.97% with Instrument of Chaos, Locus of Rage
74.07% with Banner of Blood
83.8% with Banner of Blood, Instrument of Chaos
93.24% with Banner of Blood, Locus of Rage
97.37% with Banner of Blood, Instrument of Chaos, Locus of Rage

The loci are great for lists that can run them but it's certainly not a requirement. I've been having pretty decent success lately ignoring loci altogether and making up for it with more flexible battalions. Daemons having access to cheap battalions and good troop choices is one way to help compensate for our meh codex.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:

barboggo wrote:
The big weakness with bloodletter bombs is that they are really pricey. It's hard to run multiple bombs unless you have at least 2 battalions worth of CP.

One thing I'm starting to realize with bloodletters though is that they are still pretty killy without any buffs or while being under the 20-model threshold. With buffs it's typically overkill while without buffs it will still likely decimate whatever it touches. It's pretty much never efficient from the opponent's perspective to be in CC with bloodletters.

i run 3 battalions so i have 18cp's, what some players wont realize is in a whole infantry list which run 160 infantry model+characters, 2-3 bloodletters bombs are expendables, i mean you can kill 40-50 is ok i still have 100+ models on the table, if in the meanwhile my 60-70 letters kill half of your army im in any case im the the winner, they cost just 7pts each, and witha triple battalion you can afford to ds at leasr two whole 30 men units or 3 20 men units.

Do you run 3x30 plaguebearers? Sounds like that's what I need to add to my collection to make pure daemons more viable.

yes i run 3x30 Pb's and 3x3 nurglings in the other battalion, i run the 3 nurgle heralds+korne herald and 2 Dp's

Cool. Have you ever gone against venom spam with that list? Seems like a well-screened gunline or a highly mobile flying gunline are the biggest potential weaknesses of that list at first glance. Curious how it performs against high tier meta lists like DE/aeldari soup or the pre-FAQ Castellan/BA/Loyal 32 list.

i won 20-0 against pure DE (3 ravagers 4 venoms some characters and lot of witches+grots) the game is though but too much wounds on table his veichles are made of paper i can deal with then with anything i have, never faced eldar+de, about castellan list i doubt he can do a lot, his castellan is pretty useless and catachans/slamcaptain hit hard but not hard enough to dislodge 140 infantry models most with FNP and -1 to hit, letters wreak havocs they delete every unit they charge they can die but then pb's are untoched and i flood the board and grab objectives.

I don't know, pure khorne doesnt seem worth it to me. Pure slaanesh allows advance and charge which is very important for making slaanesh useful. I normally run

1 detachment pure slaanesh, 1 detachment khorne / tzeentch mix, 1 detachment either tsons or chaos marines. I am finding chaos marines to have more potential but have yet to figure out how to make it work right.

Also i would love to see the numbers on gaze of fate vs pure khorne for the reroll during an attempt charge with the bloodletters. I really think getting spell access is worth more than getting reroll failed charges.