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Thing is, if youre summoning beyond turn 3 then you also are playing at a disadvantage the entire time. I dont think bringing in the last 200 points of your army on t4 is really worth it, when that bunch could have just been helping from the very start.

 slave.entity wrote:
I definitely must have missed it if that's the case.

I just checked the Big FAQ 2 and wasn't able to find anything regarding summoning. Any idea where they would have made the exception for daemons?

EDIT: Nvm, I suppose with the wording of the Tactical Reserves rule summoned units don't count.

Roll up to 3 dice – this is your summoning
roll. You can summon one new unit
with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the
battlefield that has a Power Rating equal to
or less than the total result so long as it has
the same Chaos God keyword you chose
at the start (in the case of units that have a
choice of allegiance, such as Furies, the unit
when summoned will have this keyword).
This unit is treated as reinforcements for
your army
pretty clear they are REINFORCEMENT so no turn 1 summoning i guess, tactical reserves wording is absolutely clear

Can you summon an under strength unit, say 1 pink horror or 1 flesh hound?

Dactylartha wrote:
Can you summon an under strength unit, say 1 pink horror or 1 flesh hound?

Possibly, but it would require the full PL of a min unit.

Edit: The argument made below makes it seem that no, by RAW, you cannot.

Dactylartha wrote:
Can you summon an under strength unit, say 1 pink horror or 1 flesh hound?

A rules lawyer could cite the BRB faq:

If you are playing a matched play game, you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment

and note that there’s no exception made for units created as reinforcements

Yeah but, are summoned units "included"?

Horror spam seems like your best bet. Herald buffs plus flickering flames means you're wounding on 3s with like 60 shots from one horror units.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Horror spam seems like your best bet. Herald buffs plus flickering flames means you're wounding on 3s with like 60 shots from one horror units.

I think its 90 shots wouldnt it? That is, if its a 20 strength horror unit like 60 would suggest.

I forgot that they could go up to 30 models a squad.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Dactylartha wrote:
Can you summon an under strength unit, say 1 pink horror or 1 flesh hound?

A rules lawyer could cite the BRB faq:

If you are playing a matched play game, you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment

and note that there’s no exception made for units created as reinforcements

More specifically , the reinforcement points rule says you can only reduce a unit down to its minimum size.

 blackmage wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
I definitely must have missed it if that's the case.

I just checked the Big FAQ 2 and wasn't able to find anything regarding summoning. Any idea where they would have made the exception for daemons?

EDIT: Nvm, I suppose with the wording of the Tactical Reserves rule summoned units don't count.

Roll up to 3 dice – this is your summoning
roll. You can summon one new unit
with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the
battlefield that has a Power Rating equal to
or less than the total result so long as it has
the same Chaos God keyword you chose
at the start (in the case of units that have a
choice of allegiance, such as Furies, the unit
when summoned will have this keyword).
This unit is treated as reinforcements for
your army
pretty clear they are REINFORCEMENT so no turn 1 summoning i guess, tactical reserves wording is absolutely clear

Yes that's how I read it too. Seems like people argue that because summoned units aren't "units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game" the tactical reserves rule doesn't apply to them.

I actually don't care about this subject enough to seek more clarity on it and I suspect GW doesn't either. I'm just accepting the fact that the daemons codex was written with tons of errors and ambiguities for people to argue over for eternity.

summon rule state how units are considered, "treated a reinforcement", if they want argue on something cleary written they can do, another good reason why i play only competitive, there never that kind of problems.

Tbh even if they aren't reinforcements for a few rules, not moving on the turn they come in, locking an HQ choice to not moving and costing reinforcement points all makes them still super duper stupid bad, even in garagehammer standards.

 blackmage wrote:
summon rule state how units are considered, "treated a reinforcement", if they want argue on something cleary written they can do, another good reason why i play only competitive, there never that kind of problems.

Yeah, it's true.

You never get nineteen-page threads on this very forum about how a team that has won one of the massive events four of the last five years has done so by cheating, being unpleasant and exploiting their friendship with the judges.

That would never, ever happen and you definitely cannot read all about it at https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/760513.page

i play in ETC never had such drama so i confirm what i said thanks.

 blackmage wrote:
i play in ETC never had such drama so i confirm what i said thanks.

What you actually said was "i play only competitive, there never that kind of problems." You didn't mention the ETC at all, until it was pointed out that your latest statement, like many of your previous ones, was overbroad and unsupportable.

It took me less than thirty seconds on google to discover that there are in fact numerous documented instances of people cheating in ETC events.

Not worth arguing with. Filter and move along. Saves yourself the headache.

Okay, so i'm determined to work a brass scorpion into a mono khorne list.
Advice on how to compensate for its fairly significant points inefficiencies? Should I spam letters?

If so, how many per squad is recommended? Some large blobs + some small?

Do I need to have skarbrand around for morale immunity?

weaver9 wrote:
Okay, so i'm determined to work a brass scorpion into a mono khorne list.
Advice on how to compensate for its fairly significant points inefficiencies? Should I spam letters?

If so, how many per squad is recommended? Some large blobs + some small?

Do I need to have skarbrand around for morale immunity?

Following.
I want it do it... probably terrible.
Mathing it out, it can survive one round of shooting against my mates UM gunline If it uses the Iron warriors 6+++ stratagem.

Letters seem good. A max size one for bombing at least. Skarbrand is a points sink and you really can't afford two in one list.
Warlord traits loci and relics of khorne all stack pretty well. But nothing for durability that I can find apart from one strat.

Maybe deploy some Oblits? They’re a pretty tempting target for anti-tank - every 3W hit removes an incoming attack. If they’re ignored, they can advance besides Khârn and shoot with 75% accuracy. Amusing incidental Crimson Crown synergy (which makes them an even better distraction carnifex), too.

3 oblits is 195 pts, not exactly distraction carnifex level there.

A single dual fist hellbrute is 100 pts, thats a distraction. Make it a renegade chapter one and it will move 9-15 inches and can still charge. Perfect distraction carnifex at the right price point.

<—- still getting used to Helbrutes being priced as disposables

Azuza001 wrote:
3 oblits is 195 pts, not exactly distraction carnifex level there.

A single dual fist hellbrute is 100 pts, thats a distraction. Make it a renegade chapter one and it will move 9-15 inches and can still charge. Perfect distraction carnifex at the right price point.

And you can strap 2x combi-bolters to that brute and make it super distracting

So i just built up 30 bloodletters... not sure what list to plug them into. My main issue is my meta has a lot of fliers, so their effectiveness is neutered.

Yeah bloodletters are great for just about everything...except fliers lol.

In gameplay terms bloodletters are pretty much a direct damage spell. Very reliable lean damage with no staying power. Using them is CP hungry but that's not a problem for our 18CP triple battalion builds stuffed to the brim with our amazing troops choices. We seriously might have the best troops selection in the game.

 slave.entity wrote:
Yeah bloodletters are great for just about everything...except fliers lol.

In gameplay terms bloodletters are pretty much a direct damage spell. Very reliable lean damage with no staying power. Using them is CP hungry but that's not a problem for our 18CP triple battalion builds stuffed to the brim with our amazing troops choices. We seriously might have the best troops selection in the game.

No might about it. We do have the best troop selection in the game.

What other army has troop choices where all options can be good options depending on what type of list you want to run? Thats our problem, our hqs and troops are amazing and our fast attack, elite, and heavy support is horrible.

 slave.entity wrote:
Yeah bloodletters are great for just about everything...except fliers lol.

In gameplay terms bloodletters are pretty much a direct damage spell. Very reliable lean damage with no staying power. Using them is CP hungry but that's not a problem for our 18CP triple battalion builds stuffed to the brim with our amazing troops choices. We seriously might have the best troops selection in the game.

The only issue is that a triple battalion demons list wouldn't win in a diverse competitive meta; mostly because you have to spend a lot of points on "tax" units for the CP. It seems like you can run the letters off of 3 CP (1 CP for banner, 2 CP to DS) which isn't really that bad seeing as they can trash a knight. Plus Orks (generally speaking) can handle Demons very, very well, especially because Dakka, Dakka, Dakka ignores the -1 to hit on Plaguebearers; Lootas can take apart a PB wall quickly.

I'm looking more toward a balanced list to plug them into. Thinking of running 3x Contemptors w/ dual butcher and havoc in an AL Vanguard with a vanilla lord, a Khorne Demon patrol for the Skullreaver prince (or use these as a basis for a mixed battalion) and 30x letters, but I'm unsure. A Khorne battalion of 3x 10 Letters seems like a waste... I'm really interested to see how people generally run them

I've been running them as a blob of 30 in a mixed daemons detachment alongside 2x20 pinks and 30x plaguebearers. It's hard for me to see them run any other way barring something like a Skarbrand list where MSU bloodletters could work. Running them under 20 has always basically been a waste of points in my experience and even something like 21-24 doesn't cut it due to overwatch. They are too slow to make it into combat and the models are way too big to hide. Giant 25+ blobs with banner/icon/deep strike is the only way to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure I agree that triple battalion wouldn't win in a diverse meta. The "tax" units daemons have access to are all insanely good and cheap. I honestly wish I had more space left over for HQ slots because the various heralds and nurgle characters are so useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:

What other army has troop choices where all options can be good options depending on what type of list you want to run? Thats our problem, our hqs and troops are amazing and our fast attack, elite, and heavy support is horrible.

Our weakness as a faction is basically shooting. Anything that can efficiently kill daemons at range and/or avoid close combat will destroy us. Luckily this weakness is easily addressed via soup.

Lately I've been finding daemon horde + Ahriman-buffed leviathan to be extremely effective.

 slave.entity wrote:
I've been running them as a blob of 30 in a mixed daemons detachment alongside 2x20 pinks and 30x plaguebearers. It's hard for me to see them run any other way barring something like a Skarbrand list where MSU bloodletters could work. Running them under 20 has always basically been a waste of points in my experience and even something like 21-24 doesn't cut it due to overwatch. They are too slow to make it into combat and the models are way too big to hide. Giant 25+ blobs with banner/icon/deep strike is the only way to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure I agree that triple battalion wouldn't win in a diverse meta. The "tax" units daemons have access to are all insanely good and cheap. I honestly wish I had more space left over for HQ slots because the various heralds and nurgle characters are so useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:

What other army has troop choices where all options can be good options depending on what type of list you want to run? Thats our problem, our hqs and troops are amazing and our fast attack, elite, and heavy support is horrible.

Our weakness as a faction is basically shooting. Anything that can efficiently kill daemons at range and/or avoid close combat will destroy us. Luckily this weakness is easily addressed via soup.

Lately I've been finding daemon horde + Ahriman-buffed leviathan to be extremely effective.

I'd like to see it win; I think theres a reason you don't see it. For example, I found facing Grey Knights with 3x Grandmasters to be extremely hard with Nurgle Demons; the D3 damage guns with a bazillion shots (psilencers I believe) did a lot of damage to my meat shields, I won solely because I played the mission.

It also depends if its ITC format, etc. I know ETC format demons do reasonably well, but as you pointed out, you are running a soup list with Ahriman and Levithans. To me a triple battalion won't work because Demons largest weakness is in the shooting phase, and shooting is required to deal with some niche threats (the DA fliers, the vulture gatling cannon fliers, etc.) unless you can get a demon prince in close and he can drop it in a single combat phase.

I do agree we have some of the best troop choices in the game, but they can't carry us like they once did. Ork's demolished close to 40 of my 60 plaguebearers in a single shooting phase with Lootas. Pink Horrors are awesome, but they're essentially a squad of combi-bolters; not very effective against the big stuff like Knights. I do agree with your idea that Bloodletters are essentially a one-use bullet; you target them at something and it dies. But the rest of the list needs to form around being able to tackle other threats as well.

Like you mentioned, Levithans with BCA's are great ranged firepower, 1k Sons have mind bullets in spades, DG has various ranged platforms (all the dreads, PBC's)... I just think Demons by themselves lack the tools to TAC and come out on top, too many bad matchups.

Yes, pure daemons seem like they can be very hit or miss depending on whether or not your opponent can deal with plaguebearers.

What I'm talking about is running some sort of triple battalion comp to fund your daemon bombs. Ideally, one detachment has Ahriman and at least 1 TSons DP in it. The other detachments should be built around either more TSons DPs or a Skullreaver DP, with Scrivener and other heralds filling them out to meet battalion requirements. It's the fact that heralds and troops are so flexible, useful, and cheap that allows us fill battalions easily.

Here's the list I've been winning with lately:

Ahriman
Tson DP
Leviathan
3x10 Cultist

Tson DP
Changecaster
1x10 Brim
2x20 Pink

Poxbringer
Changecaster
30x Bloodletter
30x Plaguebearer
2x3 Nurglings

18CP lets me auto pass morale every turn and the only valid shooting targets on the board T1 are the T8 4++ TSon leviathan with -1 to hit, the -2 to hit plaguebearers, and the cultists/nurglings. The leviathan also moves and shoots at BS2 thanks to Prescience. Starting T2 the pinks start dropping down to clear screens and make room for the bloodletters which generally nuke the biggest threat T3. After T3 anything left standing dies to the 6 psykers smiting, who are still probably untargetable since it's unlikely that the opponent has killed all daemon troops due to auto-pass morale. So far I haven't had any trouble demolishing flyers thanks to the Leviathan + smite spam + the DPs.

For knights I swap out one of the Tsons DPs for a Skullreaver DP but I haven't seem them much in my local meta so I've found that the second Tsons DP is generally more well-rounded.

Mono daemons will always be weaker than cherry picked soup but that's to be expected. It's the same as all of the other soup factions. Ynnari > pure CWE, DE/CWE > pure DE, Imperial soup > pure IG/pure marines/etc. Daemon soup is probably one of the strongest builds Chaos has access to.

What I'm finding though is mixed daemons in the context of competitive soup builds is actually really really strong. I'm not the most experienced 40k player or anything but I've been driving the above list at my local store and it has been steamrolling.

Weirdly enough, I've found that the least necessary things to have in these builds are the daemonic loci. The Nurgle one is great for pure Nurgle lists but outside of that I find the loci to be in the "nice but not absolutely necessary" category. The success rate on a Banner of Blood charge without CP reroll is already above 85%. And the Tzeentch loci is useless.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing that pure daemons have trouble with: tough beatsticks with high saves/high invulns.

Luckily 18" Death Hexes with +3 to cast are a thing.