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Tazberry wrote:
If you’re bloodletters survives a Knights attack’s then yes, it’s worth 3CP to kill it. But in my experience I don’t have enough bloodletters left to make it worth it.

I feel like the whole book needs an update at this point. Nurgle is the only real competitive God but only the troops. New marines got some real good stratagems to counter our DS letters.

Not all the book need an update but Khorne need one. Since the new SM, what make Khorne useful was the +1 attack on charge/get charge etc... now the SM got that, they need a new buff to make them scary again.

I think the Daemon rules need a ground up rewrite starting with making the Greater Daemons an actual threat.
They should all be one of the strongest, most durable, most threatening things on the table.

They shouldn't die to a few lascanons before they can do anything. Each one should be a threat on par with the strongest Knights.

I love all the models, but rules wise they are frankly crap.
No lists ever take them.

Id rather not bump the Greater Demons up to 600ish points. Theyre already hard enough to fit into a Demon list at 200-300, id rather not shove an entire third of my list into one melee monster.

If you look what they did in AOS vs 40k, daemons are more terrifying in AOS.

AoS is also has about a quarter of the shooting, and is far more involved in the melee phases. Big huge monsters are also pretty meta atm in AoS. Its more the game system than the sheets for the Greaters.

The Greaters all need better durability most of all.

Whether that's better saves, or reducing incoming damage by a certain amount, or regerating wounds I don't know.

I had the idea a while ago that as they can't hide behind their troops like smaller characters, the lesser daemons should be able to take wounds for them 'look out sir' style.

I have no idea if this would work or be balanced. But it might save them from being shot off the table turn one.

I had the idea a while ago that as they can't hide behind their troops like smaller characters, the lesser daemons should be able to take wounds for them 'look out sir' style.

but then they could be nearly unkillable...imagine a guo behind 120 plaguebearers....

durability is the problem with all the greaters, I think adding a new power to all of there datasheets would make them better and more interesting.

Something like:

Keeper: -1 to be hit
GUO: Regenerate D3 wounds each turn
Lord of change: reduce damage by 1.
Bloodthirster: -1 to would rolls against hit (6 always wounds)

If thats too much then a simple greater daemons have a 4++

 blackmage wrote:

I had the idea a while ago that as they can't hide behind their troops like smaller characters, the lesser daemons should be able to take wounds for them 'look out sir' style.

but then they could be nearly unkillable...imagine a guo behind 120 plaguebearers....

Doesn’t have to be a high likelihood. 4+ or 5+ screening from the minions could well be enough to make the most powerful incarnations of actual deities something to be afraid of but not effectively invincible

Can be easily narrated, the lesser Daemons are all desperate to prove their worth

Maybe even have some strats that give perks when more valuable units do it, like maybe a Herald that takes Wounds for its betters can regenerate some of them or get a general buff as their deity takes notice

Im not saying my idea is perfect, but it might be a step roughly in the right direction.

GD just have this weird problem of being essentially fantasy creatures with axes, swords and magic, versus guys with laser cannons, gatling guns and rocket launchers.

They need to up their game. And I don't mean giving a Bloodthirster a bazooka.

 WisdomLS wrote:
durability is the problem with all the greaters, I think adding a new power to all of there datasheets would make them better and more interesting.

Something like:

Keeper: -1 to be hit
GUO: Regenerate D3 wounds each turn
Lord of change: reduce damage by 1.
Bloodthirster: -1 to would rolls against hit (6 always wounds)

If thats too much then a simple greater daemons have a 4++

Why do you hate Nurgle? That's not NEARLY good enough to keep a GUO alive for long. Might get you one extra turn, at most.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
durability is the problem with all the greaters, I think adding a new power to all of there datasheets would make them better and more interesting.

Something like:

Keeper: -1 to be hit
GUO: Regenerate D3 wounds each turn
Lord of change: reduce damage by 1.
Bloodthirster: -1 to would rolls against hit (6 always wounds)

If thats too much then a simple greater daemons have a 4++

Why do you hate Nurgle? That's not NEARLY good enough to keep a GUO alive for long. Might get you one extra turn, at most.

Reading back, your right that nurgle buff is nowhere near on the same level :-/

perhaps give GUO the reduce all damage by 1 and give lord of change re-roll a single failed save every phase.

Lord of Change already has reduce damage by 1 and 3++.

How many Plaguebearer units would I need to make the Sloppity Bilepiper worth its 60 point cost? Itmlets them roll 2 die for morale and pick the lowest, so a good chance to get that 1 for bringing back dead models. My only thing is, I am only running a single block of 30. Is the Bilepiper just not worth his points for the one 235 point block or is it still worth?

 dan2026 wrote:
Im not saying my idea is perfect, but it might be a step roughly in the right direction.

GD just have this weird problem of being essentially fantasy creatures with axes, swords and magic, versus guys with laser cannons, gatling guns and rocket launchers.

They need to up their game. And I don't mean giving a Bloodthirster a bazooka.

the best way to make GD viables is drastically reduce long range firepower...poof magic done


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:
How many Plaguebearer units would I need to make the Sloppity Bilepiper worth its 60 point cost? Itmlets them roll 2 die for morale and pick the lowest, so a good chance to get that 1 for bringing back dead models. My only thing is, I am only running a single block of 30. Is the Bilepiper just not worth his points for the one 235 point block or is it still worth?

2-3, a decent list wipes out 30 pb in a single fire phase

Gotcha , that will free up plenty of points for other stuff. Probably upgrade my termie armored sorcerer into a Demon Prince or something.

if you play ITC guess 60 Pb's should be enough bilepiper and poxbringer with miasma, in ETC you need at least 90

 blackmage wrote:
if you play ITC guess 60 Pb's should be enough bilepiper and poxbringer with miasma, in ETC you need at least 90

I play strictly casual, don't attend tournaments. I have played 30 and a bilepiper a few times and im starting to realize how much of a waste of points it is for only 30.

problem is like said before if you lost 30 Pb's in a single turn his ability is useless.

So once you've spent your points on a truck load of Plaguebearers, Heralds, and a few Nurglings and DPs, what do you spend the rest on? DG allies perhaps?

 slave.entity wrote:
Lord of Change already has reduce damage by 1 and 3++.

If you give him a certain relic and a certain warlord trait, it'd be nice if other options were viable.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
So once you've spent your points on a truck load of Plaguebearers, Heralds, and a few Nurglings and DPs, what do you spend the rest on? DG allies perhaps?

depend... PBC are a solid choice in a nurgle demon list, or you can add some extra firepower if you have points enough, like double gatling IK or deredeos they both work great behind plaguebearers screen, more or less the list that Geoff Robinson (RIP) was testing in ITC

Hey. I'm getting back into playing daemons. Started 40k years ago with mono nurgle, now I want to be competetive with it as a core plus some allies in addition.

I see two different ways how I want to play this army, but I'm pretty unsure how to make it work:

1) Nurgle Daemonkin
Don't like FW Dreads, so they're out. MAYBE ....Decimators cause they are daemon engines. I can see a concept around Epidemius, but I'm not sure about it. What are the standard approaches here and what could the new CSM bring to the table? Here I'm totally lost.


2) Chaos Daemon Soup
I know about the different Daemon Bombs, Skullreaver Prince and the standard 60-90 Plaguebearers + HQs and the TS Detachment. Besides that, are there any decent builds out there? I don't wanna play a TS Detachment....doesn't feel right to me. Instead I would love to bring all gods together to the table. But I'm afraid only Troops and some HQs are worth it.


All in all.....I'm not looking for winning tournaments, but I want to find a way to play decent games with this faction (and possible allies). Any suggestions for units / synergies / combos / etc. are welcome! Thanks in advance.

you can use plageburst crawlers they are demons
demon codex is outdated outside nugle bloodletter/skullreaver prince/pink horrors there is nothing really intersting.

Flamers of Tzeentch backed up by a nearby Tzeerald often perform well for me.

They are expensive but are multiwound models with a decent invuln save and a nasty 12" flamer meaning they can be used on deepstrike and put out good overwatch. Add to that a 12" flyer move making them ever useful.

Need to be used in an in your face list with other easier targets nearby.

 blackmage wrote:
problem is like said before if you lost 30 Pb's in a single turn his ability is useless.

If your ND Battalion has some chunky Nurgling units, it can potentially enable them to pull some unexpected pranks

Don’t necessarily need two PB hordes to make solid use of the morale buff, one or two small units camping objectives and screening can appreciate it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HarveyBooze wrote:
Hey. I'm getting back into playing daemons. Started 40k years ago with mono nurgle, now I want to be competetive with it as a core plus some allies in addition.

I see two different ways how I want to play this army, but I'm pretty unsure how to make it work:

1) Nurgle Daemonkin
Don't like FW Dreads, so they're out. MAYBE ....Decimators cause they are daemon engines. I can see a concept around Epidemius, but I'm not sure about it. What are the standard approaches here and what could the new CSM bring to the table? Here I'm totally lost.

Epidemius is ok. When you’re doing well, he makes you do better, when you’re struggling, he’s sat in a corner doing less for you than a Poxbringer casting a support spell. When he sits on a backfield objective with a group of plaguebearers, deep strike units think twice before dropping nearby. When he gets his first Tally tier, your DPs can stop babysitting units that need hit rerolls and start doing disposable Boromir work, which can be unexpected.

DG bring a strong NDK game. A flying DP with Blighthaulers and Drones is excellent. Start them next to a Gnarlmaw and they can get some really scary first turns. Also, crawlers are widely rated well.

CSM have some solid NDK combos. Defilers and Maulerfiends led by Lords Discordant and/or flying DP (who can bring the powerful Warptime) make for a similarly powerful Gnarlmaw punch. If you’re not going pure DK, a Warpsmith is a safe pair of hands for a Warlord Trait that gives the DE’s +2M. If you take Black Legion, the LD can take a WT that makes it less likely to get deleted on T1. Heldrake in a non-WAAC environment can scarecrow support characters and be a distraction Carnifex. Forgefiend needs a Lord Discordant to be a competent shot. Venomcrawler and Decimator are generally considered overcosted, but in a casual environment they can be viable.

Obliterators are still solid. Single models can be used as asssassins, teleporting next to support characters and gunning them down. A larger unit deploying next to a Gnarlmaw is a solid bulwark with few efficient counters. Possessed are a bit naff, but Greater Possessed can accompany a Defiler & Maulerfiend jamboree and turn 3s to Wound into 2s. Mutilators are very difficult to get working. Warp Talons only really shine in a Khorne Daemonkin list.

Black Legion are solid if you want lots of Warlords and a survivable Lord Discordant and Obliterators using Veterans of the Long War. The Purge have a brilliant Chapter Trait, and their shoot-into-combat Stratagem has brutal synergy with PB tarpits. Alpha Legion trait and strat are powerful, but in a DK list only really benefits Obliterators and Possessed.

There’s some DG-CSM combos to think about. Possessed are gimmicky at best, but if they’re DG, next to a Gnarlmaw and a CSM Warptimer and a Blightbringer (DG Bell Guy), a T1 charge is very doable. Or the Warptimer can be a trebuchet that fires Mortarion, which is more viable in a metagame where the price hike on a bigger kind of Knight has made them stand down and stopped making everyone bring a battery of lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Daemon Engine jamborees can do interesting combos with a midfield Gnarlmaw, either deep striked in on T2 (won’t affect them until T3, annoyingly) or sown by Horticulous.

Masters of Possession have a psychic power that enables to you to drop a pack of Beasts of Nurgle or a horde of Plaguebearers or a Soulgrinder 9” away from the enemy on turn one, but you might fail to cast it, and many armies have a hard counter stratagem (off the top of my head: AdMech, Sisters, World Eaters, Black Templars)

 lindsay40k wrote:

Epidemius is ok. When you’re doing well, he makes you do better, when you’re struggling, he’s sat in a corner doing less for you than a Poxbringer casting a support spell. When he sits on a backfield objective with a group of plaguebearers, deep strike units think twice before dropping nearby. When he gets his first Tally tier, your DPs can stop babysitting units that need hit rerolls and start doing disposable Boromir work, which can be unexpected.

DG bring a strong NDK game. A flying DP with Blighthaulers and Drones is excellent. Start them next to a Gnarlmaw and they can get some really scary first turns. Also, crawlers are widely rated well.

CSM have some solid NDK combos. Defilers and Maulerfiends led by Lords Discordant and/or flying DP (who can bring the powerful Warptime) make for a similarly powerful Gnarlmaw punch. If you’re not going pure DK, a Warpsmith is a safe pair of hands for a Warlord Trait that gives the DE’s +2M. If you take Black Legion, the LD can take a WT that makes it less likely to get deleted on T1. Heldrake in a non-WAAC environment can scarecrow support characters and be a distraction Carnifex. Forgefiend needs a Lord Discordant to be a competent shot. Venomcrawler and Decimator are generally considered overcosted, but in a casual environment they can be viable.

Obliterators are still solid. Single models can be used as asssassins, teleporting next to support characters and gunning them down. A larger unit deploying next to a Gnarlmaw is a solid bulwark with few efficient counters. Possessed are a bit naff, but Greater Possessed can accompany a Defiler & Maulerfiend jamboree and turn 3s to Wound into 2s. Mutilators are very difficult to get working. Warp Talons only really shine in a Khorne Daemonkin list.

Black Legion are solid if you want lots of Warlords and a survivable Lord Discordant and Obliterators using Veterans of the Long War. The Purge have a brilliant Chapter Trait, and their shoot-into-combat Stratagem has brutal synergy with PB tarpits. Alpha Legion trait and strat are powerful, but in a DK list only really benefits Obliterators and Possessed.

There’s some DG-CSM combos to think about. Possessed are gimmicky at best, but if they’re DG, next to a Gnarlmaw and a CSM Warptimer and a Blightbringer (DG Bell Guy), a T1 charge is very doable. Or the Warptimer can be a trebuchet that fires Mortarion, which is more viable in a metagame where the price hike on a bigger kind of Knight has made them stand down and stopped making everyone bring a battery of lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Daemon Engine jamborees can do interesting combos with a midfield Gnarlmaw, either deep striked in on T2 (won’t affect them until T3, annoyingly) or sown by Horticulous.

Masters of Possession have a psychic power that enables to you to drop a pack of Beasts of Nurgle or a horde of Plaguebearers or a Soulgrinder 9” away from the enemy on turn one, but you might fail to cast it, and many armies have a hard counter stratagem (off the top of my head: AdMech, Sisters, World Eaters, Black Templars)

That's the kind of enlightment I was hoping for. Thank you very much! Guess I will now study those new CSM until the next big faq drops.

HarveyBooze wrote:

Spoiler:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Epidemius is ok. When you’re doing well, he makes you do better, when you’re struggling, he’s sat in a corner doing less for you than a Poxbringer casting a support spell. When he sits on a backfield objective with a group of plaguebearers, deep strike units think twice before dropping nearby. When he gets his first Tally tier, your DPs can stop babysitting units that need hit rerolls and start doing disposable Boromir work, which can be unexpected.

DG bring a strong NDK game. A flying DP with Blighthaulers and Drones is excellent. Start them next to a Gnarlmaw and they can get some really scary first turns. Also, crawlers are widely rated well.

CSM have some solid NDK combos. Defilers and Maulerfiends led by Lords Discordant and/or flying DP (who can bring the powerful Warptime) make for a similarly powerful Gnarlmaw punch. If you’re not going pure DK, a Warpsmith is a safe pair of hands for a Warlord Trait that gives the DE’s +2M. If you take Black Legion, the LD can take a WT that makes it less likely to get deleted on T1. Heldrake in a non-WAAC environment can scarecrow support characters and be a distraction Carnifex. Forgefiend needs a Lord Discordant to be a competent shot. Venomcrawler and Decimator are generally considered overcosted, but in a casual environment they can be viable.

Obliterators are still solid. Single models can be used as asssassins, teleporting next to support characters and gunning them down. A larger unit deploying next to a Gnarlmaw is a solid bulwark with few efficient counters. Possessed are a bit naff, but Greater Possessed can accompany a Defiler & Maulerfiend jamboree and turn 3s to Wound into 2s. Mutilators are very difficult to get working. Warp Talons only really shine in a Khorne Daemonkin list.

Black Legion are solid if you want lots of Warlords and a survivable Lord Discordant and Obliterators using Veterans of the Long War. The Purge have a brilliant Chapter Trait, and their shoot-into-combat Stratagem has brutal synergy with PB tarpits. Alpha Legion trait and strat are powerful, but in a DK list only really benefits Obliterators and Possessed.

There’s some DG-CSM combos to think about. Possessed are gimmicky at best, but if they’re DG, next to a Gnarlmaw and a CSM Warptimer and a Blightbringer (DG Bell Guy), a T1 charge is very doable. Or the Warptimer can be a trebuchet that fires Mortarion, which is more viable in a metagame where the price hike on a bigger kind of Knight has made them stand down and stopped making everyone bring a battery of lascannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Daemon Engine jamborees can do interesting combos with a midfield Gnarlmaw, either deep striked in on T2 (won’t affect them until T3, annoyingly) or sown by Horticulous.

Masters of Possession have a psychic power that enables to you to drop a pack of Beasts of Nurgle or a horde of Plaguebearers or a Soulgrinder 9” away from the enemy on turn one, but you might fail to cast it, and many armies have a hard counter stratagem (off the top of my head: AdMech, Sisters, World Eaters, Black Templars)

That's the kind of enlightment I was hoping for. Thank you very much! Guess I will now study those new CSM until the next big faq drops.

Here's a Nurgle Engine list I'm excited about trying:
Nurgle Chaos Daemon Battalion
HQ
Epidemius
Poxbringer
Bilepiper
TROOPS
4x Nurglings
24x Plaguebearers, Icon
24x Plaguebearers, Icon

Brazen Beasts Spearhead
Soulforged Pack
HQ
Disco Lord, Autocannon, Mecha-serpents, Master of Soulforges
Master of Possession (Cursed Earth, Infernal Power)
HEAVY
Defiler, autocannon, twin flamer
Defiler, autocannon, twin flamer
Maulerfield, lashers
Maulerfield, lashers

Purge Vanguard
HQ
Warpsmith, Combi-flamer
ELITE
Decimator, storm laser
Decimator, storm laser
Decimator, storm laser

Maybe drop a Defiler or Mauler in order to get more Plaguebearers....?

Why a Bilepiper?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why a Bilepiper?

why? 48 pb's and he makes them roll 2 dice for battle shock and limit losses, with icon there is a decent chance they can come back.