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Cephalobeard wrote: I wouldn't mix gods this edition. You don't gain anything for it.
I'd also run CSM Daemon Princes instead of Daemon ones, because iirc they can't be targeted as they're under 10 wounds. However, I may have that flip flopped. Either way, use the one that can't be targeted.
Their sole purpose is to cast smite and charge into combat. So, you are trying to get within 18-12" anyways. Once in melee, they are the closest model so that benefit goes out the window usually by turn 2 and definitely after you made your first assault and either wiped out their small unit/vehicle or have a larger unit or tougher vehicle fall back on you.
I prefer taking the winged, double maelific talons, Daemon version prince of Tzeentch for the extra 2 wounds and the +1 to inv. saves, all with Treason of Tzeentch. I know you can't cast Treason 3x, but with three of them I am more likely to be in the right place at the right time for a good Treason cast (they mostly cast Smite anyways).
This works for me as I usually also take Magnus and/or Be'lakor and the opponent focuses their attention on them first.
While their purpose may be the smite and charge into combat, if one of the models is locked in combat and you have 9 Characters behind it, they literally can't shoot any of them as long as they one locked in combat is still the closest model for the enemy units.
The new character rules are not to be underrated, especially by Daemons who have many, many characters who can use those rules to their advantage.
While their purpose may be the smite and charge into combat, if one of the models is locked in combat and you have 9 Characters behind it, they literally can't shoot any of them as long as they one locked in combat is still the closest model for the enemy units.
The new character rules are not to be underrated, especially by Daemons who have many, many characters who can use those rules to their advantage.
Though I agree overall that CSM princes are the right choice, could you elaborate on the enemy not being able to shoot at any of them?
If the closest DP is in melee, the enemy just needs to Fall Back and shoot the piss out of it with other units.
The potential downside to a 10+ CSMDP list is that the closest one WILL die each turn.
Side note, maybe in an all DP list, 1-2 Daemon DPs are worth fielding as there has to be a closest model anyway, why not benefit from the extra wounds and ability?
I'll post a list in the Armylist thread
The enemy certainly could fall back, but if they don't, and that model is still locked in combat for any reason, it is still technically the closest enemy target.
According to GW designer notes they released, they confirmed that even if a target is locked in combat it counts as the closest enemy target and you cannot shoot characters behind them.
Ex:
You have 3 Princes.
1 is in Front, locked in combat. One is 1" Behind it, one is 3" behind it.
If the opponent does not fall back, forgets to, etc, they may not shoot either of those other princes.
Are screamers really actually that bad? That's a right old shame.
I'm guessing the main problem is their durability and/or cost, since their melee damage hasn't really gone down that much (aside from a lower S value on their main attack iirc)?
Cephalobeard wrote: The enemy certainly could fall back, but if they don't, and that model is still locked in combat for any reason, it is still technically the closest enemy target.
According to GW designer notes they released, they confirmed that even if a target is locked in combat it counts as the closest enemy target and you cannot shoot characters behind them.
Ex:
You have 3 Princes.
1 is in Front, locked in combat. One is 1" Behind it, one is 3" behind it.
If the opponent does not fall back, forgets to, etc, they may not shoot either of those other princes.
So basically, only a dumb opponent would leave a unit engaged with the closest prince, thereby skipping their entire shooting phase?
Unrelated question: How do we feel about Nurglings?
I have 2x 3 that were my standard Troops prior to Horrors. I don't like how badly they got nerfed.
-lowered to T2? Ok, instant death isn't a thing, so fine
-S2 and only gets to re-roll 1s? Meh, Nurglings didn't do much damage anyway
-Points increase too? Now your just putting salt in the wound
-Oh, and while we're at it, you can't use your DR ability against over half the weapons that exist. Thanx GW
Is there a purpose for these guys? For the cost of 4 Nurgling bases, we can get 10 Plaguebearers that are way tougher and have more models (for objectives)
Even their "infiltrate" ability seems meh. I've seen people suggest using it to tie up a unit turn 1 to stop that units shooting, but the rule doesn't allow the Nurglings from deploying 9" from enemy UNITs, but from the enemy Deployment. If the opponent deploys their units in any kind of sensible way, there will not be units close enough for the Nurglings to charge.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 13:22:51
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Are screamers really actually that bad? That's a right old shame.
I'm guessing the main problem is their durability and/or cost, since their melee damage hasn't really gone down that much (aside from a lower S value on their main attack iirc)?
Previously you could guarantee hits by using their fly-by attack. Now you have to rely on their WS4 attacks to even do anything.
Cephalobeard wrote: The enemy certainly could fall back, but if they don't, and that model is still locked in combat for any reason, it is still technically the closest enemy target.
According to GW designer notes they released, they confirmed that even if a target is locked in combat it counts as the closest enemy target and you cannot shoot characters behind them.
Ex:
You have 3 Princes.
1 is in Front, locked in combat. One is 1" Behind it, one is 3" behind it.
If the opponent does not fall back, forgets to, etc, they may not shoot either of those other princes.
So basically, only a dumb opponent would leave a unit engaged with the closest prince, thereby skipping their entire shooting phase?
Unrelated question: How do we feel about Nurglings?
I have 2x 3 that were my standard Troops prior to Horrors. I don't like how badly they got nerfed.
-lowered to T2? Ok, instant death isn't a thing, so fine
-S2 and only gets to re-roll 1s? Meh, Nurglings didn't do much damage anyway
-Points increase too? Now your just putting salt in the wound
-Oh, and while we're at it, you can't use your DR ability against over half the weapons that exist. Thanx GW
Is there a purpose for these guys? For the cost of 4 Nurgling bases, we can get 10 Plaguebearers that are way tougher and have more models (for objectives)
Even their "infiltrate" ability seems meh. I've seen people suggest using it to tie up a unit turn 1 to stop that units shooting, but the rule doesn't allow the Nurglings from deploying 9" from enemy UNITs, but from the enemy Deployment. If the opponent deploys their units in any kind of sensible way, there will not be units close enough for the Nurglings to charge.
-
Nurglings are wonderful screens. Sure, for slightly more points you can get a tough backfield, but nurglings can jump right into your opponents face and prevent them from going anywhere, while you position and move yourself.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/27 13:38:11
Galef wrote: [spoiler]Is there a purpose for these guys? For the cost of 4 Nurgling bases, we can get 10 Plaguebearers that are way tougher and have more models (for objectives)-
Infiltrate is the big thing here. You will hear the term 'screening unit' put out there on the FLG podcast and stream channel.
That is because 2 squads of nurglings placed 9" from your models can block most or all of your army from getting hit by deep striking scions.
I'd rather have my 5 points per wound nurgling stands get double tapped by plasma than my daemon princes.
When your opponent rushes forward with smite spam, instead of your main units getting hit, your nurglings -- which are 5 points per wound are taking the smites (and getting DR rolls)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 15:06:10
Galef wrote: [spoiler]Is there a purpose for these guys? For the cost of 4 Nurgling bases, we can get 10 Plaguebearers that are way tougher and have more models (for objectives)-
Infiltrate is the big thing here. You will hear the term 'screening unit' put out there on the FLG podcast and stream channel.
That is because 2 squads of nurglings placed 9" from your models can block most or all of your army from getting hit by deep striking scions.
I'd rather have my 5 points per wound nurgling stands get double tapped by plasma than my daemon princes.
When your opponent rushes forward with smite spam, instead of your main units getting hit, your nurglings -- which are 5 points per wound are taking the smites (and getting DR rolls)
Gibs55 wrote: Very interested in this heavy DP army. What s the concensus on the best mark to take for the army? How does the army function with so few models?
Its one of those match-ups like Necron Pylons in 7th. It either does very well, or nothing in a bad match-up. If you want to run it for the fun of it, that's awesome, but don't expect it to be top tournament competitive. Its too easy for skilled players to play around, and horde armies will ruin your fun.
Yeah, I think the all DP list will do great against other low-ish model count armies like Marines, Eldar, maybe against T'au.
It will suffer greatly against horde armies like Guard, Nids & Orks (which some initial reports are saying are the ideal for 8E)
Galef wrote: Yeah, I think the all DP list will do great against other low-ish model count armies like Marines, Eldar, maybe against T'au.
It will suffer greatly against horde armies like Guard, Nids & Orks (which some initial reports are saying are the ideal for 8E)
Even Tau players are flooding their lists with Gun Drones, so no bueno, there.
Virules wrote: Has anyone tried, or seen a game with, Scabby the Nurgle Daemon Lord?
I haven't but I think he'd do fine. He's pretty appropriately costed, and gaining wounds back every turn from the nurgle psychic power plus his already disgusting resilience....plus an extra 6+ FNP if you want to make him your warlord....he's not going to die. He doesn't have a ton of attacks but he doesn't degrade much. Very strong and does a ridiculous amount of damage, especially if you cast the +1 on the to wound roll to get even more damage. The auto hit pistol means that hordes have difficulty tying him down...all in all, not an awful choice to build an army around.
Have a question. If I play both a detachment of chaos daemons and a detachment of CSM. Can my chaos daemons side summon in a defiler? (assuming same god of chaos of course).
Galef wrote: Yeah, I think the all DP list will do great against other low-ish model count armies like Marines, Eldar, maybe against T'au.
It will suffer greatly against horde armies like Guard, Nids & Orks (which some initial reports are saying are the ideal for 8E)
Even Tau players are flooding their lists with Gun Drones, so no bueno, there.
Gun drones need 5's to hit (unless drone controller then 4+ to hit) and 5's to wound a DP . The DP then gets to make 3+ armor saves (2+ if you have any cover) as there is no AP on pulse carbines. DP's only need to worry about the suits.
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
Galef wrote: Yeah, I think the all DP list will do great against other low-ish model count armies like Marines, Eldar, maybe against T'au.
It will suffer greatly against horde armies like Guard, Nids & Orks (which some initial reports are saying are the ideal for 8E)
Even Tau players are flooding their lists with Gun Drones, so no bueno, there.
Gun drones need 5's to hit (unless drone controller then 4+ to hit) and 5's to wound a DP . The DP then gets to make 3+ armor saves (2+ if you have any cover) as there is no AP on pulse carbines. DP's only need to worry about the suits.
Sigh... Yes, but a list that is counting on half of its damage coming from Smite, can be neutered by someone sticking chaff in front of their actual units.
And even after considering blocking smites, gun drones often come in units of 2, so there is very little chance of pulling off a meaningful charge. On top of that any drones that may survive or get consolidated into have fly to leave combat anyway. Properly positioned 16 point drone speedbumps will slow princes for a long time. And force them into eating round after round of overwatch from multiple units on top of normal shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 16:16:27
Played my first game in 15 years today, 60 power levels friendly match in the GW local store with my Tzeentch army (60% Daemons/40% CSM). I was facing Undivided CSM and I literally destroyed the opponent, although I must confess I was extremely lucky with most of my important dice rolls.
Mission was The Relic and that's when my luck started, since his army was lacking units with high movility. I got to start on turn 1 thanks to daemons being summoned, and my Pink horrors got the relic on turn 2. Then I moved them to the deployment zone while the rest of my army took care of securing the lines and destroying every single enemy unit. The game ended on Turn 5 with only his Chaos Lord standing with one wound left.
Highlights:
· I literally destroyed a Vindicator with two lucky Smites (6 wounds on the first one and 5 on the second one). It didn't explode though.
· His 5 Terminators arrived via deep strike in the first turn and destroyed most of my cultist on the flank. My Sorcerer on bike moved close to them, my termies appeared via deep strike and approached them thanks to warptime. Heavy flamer and a charge did the rest and destroyed the whole unit in a single turn.
· My three flamers did a great job containing a Maulerfiend for three entire turns. Those guys are really good, having the ability to flee from combat and shoot over and over really pissed him off. It got stuck enough time for my termies to arrive and finish the job.
· My Sorcerer on bike moved behind the lines to cast Smite on the Chaos Lord and his Chosen. Perils of the warp made his head explode but he took most of the Chosen with him · His Forgefiend suffered constant Smite spam until being reduced to one wound. A lucky bolter shot from one of the regular chaos marines made it explode.
· My Herald of Tzeench on Burning Chariot used was fantastic. It got stuck on combat with the chosen and the Forgefiend. With only two wounds left he killed one chosen with the ritual dagger, recovered one wound, fleed from combat and joined the escaping Horrors while casting Smite.
MVP:
· The Changeling. He is an absolute beast. I couldn't sayt how many impacts my daemons avoided thanks to his bubble. Then he charged the aspiring champion and used his own power fist to smash his face. Next turn he casted Smite on the Chaos Lord, charged and took 2 wounds from him thanks to his own chainfist before dying on the counter-attack.
To summarize, less than 2 hours of absolute fun. I know I will be dealing with worst dice rolls and overall luck but I had a blast on my comeback
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/29 17:45:09
I also found out that Magnus doesn't suffer from Aetaos jealousy (waaaay too much eggs in one basket though).
I'm thinking of getting the new LoC model...
Aetaos is ridiculously good, 100% worth his 700 points. The 3++ makes him nigh invulnerable to the things you would use to try to kill a big model like that (command point rerolls are Good) and both his gun and melee are brutal hits.
I didn't realize he could play with Magnus... Almost makes me wanna field a Superheavy Detachment with him, Aetaos, a Renegade Knight, and... something else? Preferably not another Knight, for variety's sake. Though I'm pretty sure nobody in my group would play with me if I tried to bring that army.
Apologies if this has been ought up before, but anyone else find it strange that Fateweaver only has a 5++ since he doesn't have Ephemeral Form? Feels like an oversight.
Played vs CSM:
My list:
Magnus
3 tzeentch Daemon DPs wings claws
LoC Changeling
9 brim 1 blue x2
10 pink 7 brim
3 flamers x3
burning chariot
7 furies
His list had a knight, noise marines, havocs, cultists, DP, lord, spawns.
Tabled him on turn 3 pretty much. Yeah. Tzeentch is broken vs marines and elite armies in general. Also the flamers handle what hordes they might have.
Magnus is just silly. 32 move, about 6-10 mortal wounds into charge with 4++ re-roll 1s. The entire army focused him. Got 2 wounds off. Obviously very lucky but still. He killed about 600 pts worth of stuff(5 terminators dead like nothing in 1 turn. Could've killed a squad of 8 probably) and took every bullet and every charge for 2 turns. Meanwhile the rest of my army moped up everything and got every objective making a point victory impossible for him. He had only the knight left turn 3.
DP - amazing.
LoC - just get DPs :p
Changeling - if you're not taking him, you're silly
Furies - 4+WS, no AP, just bad
Chariot died turn 1 since I failed 9 saves in a row xD
Flamers were busy camping objectives due to what I drew (maelstrom)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/30 04:41:20
Invul wrote: Apologies if this has been ought up before, but anyone else find it strange that Fateweaver only has a 5++ since he doesn't have Ephemeral Form? Feels like an oversight.
Honestly, it feels pretty solid. Changeling gives everyone -1 to be hit, you still hide heralds behind horrors and Aetaos, while he tosses off huge shots at the large wound targets you'd have issues smiting. I... Kind of like it.
That's a right old shame.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
(waaaay too much eggs in one basket though).
