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 Cephalobeard wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Had another game against the current top dawg tourny list of 5 stormravens... Lasted until turn 4 before I called it. Against a list like this, your best bet in first turn, is to move your big hitters (magnus, DP, etc...) as far in the back is you can, with the changling and rest of army (brimmies) create a buffer zone to prevent the 2-dice melta-take the highest rolls.

Three things...

1) The Changeling is the most Auto-include HQ I've ever seen... that -1 to hit is simply golden, especially being bottom of 1st turn.

2) Magnus is quite possibly the best all-round monster for his points... I think 415 is an absolute steal.

3) Exalted Flamers performed really well... anyone has experience spamming these guys? Seems like a great distraction/assassination unit to deepstrike in enemy backline or gang up on a particular target.

I'm thinking about fielding Aetaos'rau'keres... but, I can't find his model. Is it this?
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-EU/Lord-of-Change-Greater-Daemon-of-Tzeentch

Seems weird that I cannot find the named deamon on FW... O.o

Anyhoo, if that's the case, would it be kosher for me to simply use the new LoC/Fatey model as proxy for Aetaos? Seems big enough...

I use 12 Exalted Flamers in my list. Yes, it works exactly as horrifyingly well as you'd expect.

Second, absolutely not. Aetaos is supposed to be enormous. I use an Archaon for mine.

How can I create my Aetaos or Zarakyel? I have to buy FW models?

I'm converting an Archaon. They're basically the same size.

Check out my latest Tzeentch battle report for what I think a competitive Daemon list is. It's mainly Daemons + Magnus.


2K Competitive - Jy2's Brimming With Horror Tzeentch Army vs Flyer-spam Orks w/Giant Squiggoth!

I mean, that's definitely the kind of list that is going to get Brimstone's giving everyone a sour taste in their mouth. Calling it a Daemon list is nearly disingenuous, it's a Brimstone horror army. Lol

I prefer to call it a Tzeentch list as Magnus is not truly a Daemon, at least not when determining the faction of the a detachment.

Call it how you will, I suppose. This type of list and Conscripts spam are about the "easiest" thing you can do right now. I'm sure you'll win games, but it won't be you winning them, it will be the bucket of 4++ models you dropped on the table. If you're content with that, enjoy the list.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Call it how you will, I suppose. This type of list and Conscripts spam are about the "easiest" thing you can do right now. I'm sure you'll win games, but it won't be you winning them, it will be the bucket of 4++ models you dropped on the table. If you're content with that, enjoy the list.

It's the sad truth, but you will see these types of lists in tournament play - brimstone-spam, razorflock, Tau gun drones, conscripts, the Green Tide, etc.

Whether I win with my lists or not is not important. What is important is informing/educating the 40K masses about what types of lists one may expect in these environments and how they may perform. Hence the reason why my battle reports tend to focus more on the competitive side of gaming.

 whembly wrote:
Best to try to bubble wrapper your big boppers to at least force them more than double-tap ranger... till turn four at least.

That's why God made Nurglings! Well, at least Nurgle made them....
Since they can infiltrate, you can put them out in the middle of the board doing great denial of deep striking.

Another great unit is 30 plague bearers. Their value is more than is shown on paper. I use one squad to sit on 1-2 objectives in my backfield. That also prevents me from having deep strikers attack me from behind.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
How is everyone finding Plague Drones this edition? Should I just be fielding them naked?

I've found them abit of a mixed bag unit. They can move pretty quick with an instrument as turn 2 they can tie stuff up. The biggest down side to them now is that their is alot more multi wound weapons and the changes to the core rules mean they die fairly quickly. Best use for them I know of is units of 3 and run them into things and tie them up while you get into position for smiting and as potential character hunters as with damage 2 they can make short work of certain support characters that can cause problems like comissars and psykers

I apparently chose the worst ebay vendor to buy an Archaon from -- I have a tournament at the end of this month and will likely only receive the model in time to do 1 Practice game at best with him.

Curious if I think I can handle running the event with him, or sticking with my current Exalted Flamer spam list, instead.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I apparently chose the worst ebay vendor to buy an Archaon from -- I have a tournament at the end of this month and will likely only receive the model in time to do 1 Practice game at best with him.

Curious if I think I can handle running the event with him, or sticking with my current Exalted Flamer spam list, instead.

Why would you need the model for a practice game? Just ask your opponent if a proxy will do and slap a LoC or similar model on the table

Could you expand a bit more on how E-Flamer spam works? 70ppm seems a bit steep for only hitting on 4+. And the auto-hit option can be done better with regular Flamers
Is it just the versatility of having both firing modes and being a Character that makes it work?

-

There are times when Flamers make more sense to bring than Exalted Flamers, but this is why you should take Exalted Flamers over Flamers:

1. Cheaper. Gives you more pointage to take other units.

2. More flexibility. Flamers are anti-infantry only. Exalted flamers are both anti-infantry and anti-elite units with their D3 semi-lascannon shots

3. You can target Flamers with normal enemy shooting. You can't with Exalted Flamers.

Exalted Flamers and other many-small-characters lists can be annoying to an opponent because their big guns have to only target one of them. You can expect a very large amount of wasted shots.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Exalted Flamers and other many-small-characters lists can be annoying to an opponent because their big guns have to only target one of them. You can expect a very large amount of wasted shots.

I'm not seeing how it is wasting shots. With 4+ wounds, even 1 melta/lascannon cannot reliably kill it. Besides, units can split fire these days. Fire all your bolters into the troops and the melta into the character (assuming you can). If your big gun isn't shooting at a big Daemon, than all shots are wasted anyways because they will be firing at cheap, screening troop units instead.

Exalted Flamers are also WS/BS 3+. For 70PPM It's a character, offers a terrific mini-las cannon, and can handle hordes of models through mutliples of them via the pistol shot.

My list runs over 20 Characters and then plenty of horrors. You cannot target anything in my list without handling those first.

As for why I won't use a LoC for practice, I'd rather wait until I have the appropriate scale so my opinion of the model isn't based on experiences with a poor proxy, at best.


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"Wasted shots" in that models are forced to shoot into one at a time, I imagine.

If I have 11 Exalted flamers, a Knight can only shoot ONE Flamer until the others are viable targets, I imagine is what they meant.

Yes, that's what I meant exactly. If the Knight manages to kill one Exalted Flamer with the gatling cannon the rest of his guns go to waste because he's not allowed to shoot them at any of the other EF's.

Exactly. Against 4 Knights it will take 3 turns of shooting, minimum, before you can shoot any target in my army other than a horror/exalted flamer if I position them appropriately. Allowing me to smite, yadda yadda, in the meantime.

This is obviously an "in a vacuum" scenario, but that is a benefit of Exalted over normal flamers.

what about play a list without any big bird, like Magnus and Aetaos? kind of Dp's/belakor and bunch of exalted flamers, you sure know in ur experience that way you set close to 0 the effect of heavy weapons, i was also curious how you think an Ik can fit that list, tysm.

My main, current list, doesn't use any large characters. It's quite effective and I've not lost a game in my last 4 games with it.

8th, without codexes, is somewhat polarizing in that the choices seem to weigh heavily on either a.) spamming small characters or b.) utilizing few, very large models.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
How is everyone finding Plague Drones this edition? Should I just be fielding them naked?

I've had good luck with my plague drones. It took me a few games to learn where they are good, and now I use them in nearly every list.

The Good
* Plague drones are very good at rapid assaults. I have yet to fail to get a turn 1-2 charge in with them.
* Plague drones combine very well with a Nurgle DP to give them rerolling of 1s. Being STR 4 with poisoned weapons, they wound often - but have a hard time hitting.
* Plague drones are very good at blocking in targets in assault. Since they have such large bases, 7 of them can encircle most vehicles locking them in CC for much of the game.
Note : This also works against knights, since they are not infantry. Titantic feet are an issue for long term use here.
(2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed FNP) * 2 wounds * 12 attacks = 4.74 wounds per round (which is around 1 drone, since extra wounds won't roll over)
* The fly keyword helps greatly here too. You can move over enemy models during the charge move, so you can easily wrap around models.
* The banner gives you a good bang for your buck on these guys, since you get a 44 points model back
* Each drone has 5 effective attacks. 4 of those attacks are D2. This is not bad. I've used them to assault and kill more than 1 flyer. The sheet volume of attacks helps a lot. I've used them to plow into conscript blobs before with good success.
* Virulent Blessing combines very well with drones, due to those reroll-to wounds. Last weekend I had a squad of 7 of them with a prince casting Virulent Blessing on the unit charge some robots. He had to make 6 saves of D2, and 8 saves at D3. It was not a good day for the robots.
* They have assault guns. They can also overwatch with them. I've disengaged with them to allow my GUO to assault, then shot up some backfield units with their guns.

The Bad
* They are not great against models that do multiple wounds in assault during the fight phase. Magnus is just bad news for drones.
* They are not great against MEQ. No AP on the saves means they are best vs GEQ or vehicles. (Vehicles due to the D2 and rerolling to wounds)
* They have a very large footprint on the board. This can be good or bad, depending on your view.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
My main, current list, doesn't use any large characters. It's quite effective and I've not lost a game in my last 4 games with it.

8th, without codexes, is somewhat polarizing in that the choices seem to weigh heavily on either a.) spamming small characters or b.) utilizing few, very large models.

the list with Ik plays anyway 14 characters, 2 dp's 4 heralds changeling and 7 exalted, the styrix Ik seems durable and with nice weapons, not counting 120 brimstones.

Has anyone considered doing a Tzeentch Brigade at 2000?

Brigade 1300~1400 points +9 CP
Herald x3
Exalted Flamer x3
Horrors x12
Screamers x3
Burning Chariot x3

12 Squads of Horrors, and gives you plenty of support.

Next you do 2 more Battalions for 304 points each.
Herald x2
Horrors x6

That puts us as about 2000, potentially another Herald here or there.
24 squads of Horrors, that's 24 * 1/3 * 2 = 16 Mortal Wounds
7 Heralds, that's 7 * ((6/12 * 2)+(2/12 * 3.5)) = 11 Mortal Wounds

Not to mention the exact stuff that the Flamers, Screamers, and Burning Chariots will do.
Oh and... the most important part... 18 CP

I'm not comfortable buying that many horrors, as it stands. I have a very comfortable guy feeling they're either going to nerf them into the ground or change how horrors either interact or are fielded.


For now I will under-deploy and summon my dead models. Same result, just means someone doesn't move every now and then, while I don't pay a couple hundred bucks for more brimstone models.



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I can tell you right now that Screamers are absolute garbage. Do not bother.

While CP is helpful, that much is pointless. You will rarely ever need more than 10. You can jam screamers and chariots, but they die pretty quickly.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I can tell you right now that Screamers are absolute garbage. Do not bother.

While CP is helpful, that much is pointless. You will rarely ever need more than 10. You can jam screamers and chariots, but they die pretty quickly.

If you're playing Maelstrom you can burn them to get Objective that you can complete.
With that alone you might burn 8-10 CP.

Screamers might be garbage at killing stuff, but they are 16" Move and get a minor bonus when they Advance, making it feel less painful when you're only really using them for speeding around to grab objectives.
At worst you might just seem them as a minor tax, or you can replace them with something else. -shrugs-

 Talamare wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I can tell you right now that Screamers are absolute garbage. Do not bother.

While CP is helpful, that much is pointless. You will rarely ever need more than 10. You can jam screamers and chariots, but they die pretty quickly.

If you're playing Maelstrom you can burn them to get Objective that you can complete.
With that alone you might burn 8-10 CP.

Screamers might be garbage at killing stuff, but they are 16" Move and get a minor bonus when they Advance, making it feel less painful when you're only really using them for speeding around to grab objectives.
At worst you might just seem them as a minor tax, or you can replace them with something else. -shrugs-

93 or however may point units, in triplicate, aren't really a viable tax, though. Use furies if you're just having a tax. I suppose your comment of Maelstrom is valid, though? I'm seeing mostly Eternal War from a competitive standpoint, so that's where my perspective lies.

Screamers

So everyone is saying they are garbage. I'm not sure I understand why. I mean back when they were unkillable with a 2++ they were pretty rocking. I get it that they've lost that and that many armies are now pumping out good volumes of fire and/or multi damage shots and the screamers have a big old target painted on their head (fins?)

But they still pack a fair punch with 2 standard attacks plus a lampreys bite. A big squad near a herald for +1S who can also have a go at buffing them them with the easiest to cast tzeentch spell doesn't strike me as complete garbage. A DP nearby (who is using them as an expensive screen) also dishes out re-roll 1's to maximise their damage.

I appreciate they may not be the best and that they have a hefty price tag but I think garbage is a bit strong.

Has anyone had any positive experiences with them?

They're too expensive for 2 wound, t4 models only hitting on 4+.

I've played two games, once with 3 3 man squads, one with 3 nine man squads. Literally both times they folded like paper.

Agree on the Screammers not being quite useful on this index, which is a pity since I truly love the models. Let's see if they get some love in the future.

On another vein, I've been looking for some synergies between Tzeentch Daemons and CSM to add some CC dakka to my list. Warptalons seem the best option since they have the DAEMON keyword, but... could we take a look at possesed too?

Everybody is complaining about possesed's statline, price and random attack value, but I see a great opportunity getting them into the Tzeentch character's bubbles. I run Be'Lakor, the Changeling and several Heralds of Tzeentch. That would give possesed -1 to be hit, +1 ST (ST6 -2AP doens't look bad to me), and re-rolling 1's thanks to Be'Lakor aura. The Changeling or the Heralds of Tzeentch could cast Boon of change on them for a potential extra attack, ST7 or T5. Assuming an average on 2 attacks per turn on the 1D3 that could be hilarius if you are lucky with your dice rolls.

Now, I could be influenced by the fact that I'm really looking forward to do some weird convertions (Extra arms! Tentacles!) but... do they look that bad?

does an IK fit into a list like Cephalobeard (or kind of) instead of Magnus for example? ty for answers

2-3 Renegade Knights and Magnus is gross powerful eight now. I'd say Magnus outclasses a Knight, damage wise? You can certainly use both, many people are doing so.