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 blackmage wrote:
mounts deliver ap 0 hits, so their amount of damage is low, anyone can save against it, demonettes have always at least -1,demonette has more punch always, not counting 20+ demonettes gets plus 1 attack/model.

If we were to take into account the targetable, not targetable, the normal chariot is obviously better

well in 8th edition be not targettable is huge,anythjng die easily so if you can hide and not be shoot you have always the upper hand.

So you literally said "I did no calculations but it looks bad". The tongues do more damage than the claws to T3S6 and T4I5 (daemons, genestealers) models without herald buff which is what they will attack - the screen unit. And even with the buff the damage is about 60-40 between claws and tongues.

And ofc the targetable thing is a HUGE deal. My post was only about damage (apart from helflayer where I added its durability)

demons and genestealer, or everyone not having a save 3+ or better, just die quick against demonettes thanks to huge number of attacks. I dont want argue with u, but mathammer is pointless, play and see is the better school. sorry for the bother.

Zerakynyl does splash damage on +4s did you add this into your calculations ?

Edit: I've been having horrible luck with seekers due to there huge base size, and I've been having trouble having a herald keep up with them due to there incredible speed honestly been considering dropping them, but i love the models so much I don't want to give up on them yet, I think my big problem is i've been using them in too small a squad size.

and I've been having trouble having a herald keep up with them due to there incredible speed

herald on steed has same speed i dont see the problem

 blackmage wrote:

and I've been having trouble having a herald keep up with them due to there incredible speed

herald on steed has same speed i dont see the problem

If she rolls poorly for her advance which has happened allot for me, she is rarely within 6 inches of the seekers after they have completed a first turn charge, but this is my bad since i need to get used to deploying her further forward but not too forward so she gets sniped.

I have been considering trying an all mounted slaanesh force, since I have 6 seeker chariots, 40 seekers and a couple of heralds on steeds, I also plan on getting a start collecting box soon so i can build an exalted chariot (one of the few slaanesh models I don't have)

well 1st roll for her advance then for seekers so you can move them properly leaving behind a bit 1 model to keep whole unit inside 6" bubble if needed, is not that hard.

 Rydria wrote:
Zerakynyl does splash damage on +4s did you add this into your calculations ?

Yes I did. She does better damage on 1 wound units >_>
The problem is that KoS has 6+D3 attacks while Zarakynel has only 6.
Like I said, she's only a great unit if you fight high invul save targets like girlyman.

@blackmage if you say play is better than mathammer, I can only accept that if you've played a mono slaanesh army 20+ times in 8th to avoid the variance
A guy on fb has played that much and he told me that he uses more seekers than daemonettes. And the calculations say that the seekers are barelly worse and have better stats everywhere else. Due to base size I doubt I'll run more than a unit of 20+instrument.

My big problem with regular keeper of secrets, is there lack of durability, they are less durable than a rhino vs everything that is ap -2 or worse, and equally durable vs ap-3 and better vs ap-4+.

My big worry with them is that they are easy to kill, while Zerak has that magic toughness 8 which makes her harder to wound with common weapons i've had horrible thoughts of my keeper being shredded by bolter shots.

So...out of curiosity, why do you want the herald on exalted seeker to not be targeted? As compared to say, 15 daemonettes (it's point value) it's t5 12 wounds 4+/5++ vs t3 15 wounds 5++. Looks a bit tougher to me, particularly against the very common str 4 shooting world.

I mean, I get we don't love being shot at, but *something* has to be shot at. Exalted seeker heralds actually don't seem horrible by the standards of slaanesh.

 Rydria wrote:
My big problem with regular keeper of secrets, is there lack of durability, they are less durable than a rhino vs everything that is ap -2 or worse, and equally durable vs ap-3 and better vs ap-4+.

My big worry with them is that they are easy to kill, while Zerak has that magic toughness 8 which makes her harder to wound with common weapons i've had horrible thoughts of my keeper being shredded by bolter shots.

The problem is that 2 KoS are almost 2x better damage wise than 1 Zerak and cost less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tzeentch mathammer:

Most units are really really bad. It's the few broken units that carry the army.

Heralds - all variations really bad in melee. Why take them over a slaanesh herald? Their main defence isn't 4+ or 1- from changeling. It's the brimstones around them. And all they do is smite spam anyway, which other heralds/DPs do just as well because Tzeentch has no psyker bonus for some reason. I don't think I'll ever take a Tzeentch herald.

Kairos - reaaaally bad.

Lord of change - sword is the second clearest choice about this unit. The clearest choice about the unit is - don't ever take it. It's awful.

Blue Scribes - worst unit in melee per points. All he has going for him is the psyker shananigans

Pink Horrors - worst troops. Power - average

Blue Horrors - bad. Only good to take 1 with brimstones

Brimstones - broken. Can't do much damage but the durable body for 2 points is just disgusting.

Exalted flamer - Ok on paper. With the character keyword and brimstone around it - broken

Flamers - REALLY good.

Screamers - really subpar and vulnerable.

Burning chariot - Take flamers/ex flamers instead. But if you already have enough of them and hate spam(like me), it's not a bad choice

Big bird - Deletes a superheavy a turn. Almost unkillable.

Magnus - the dude that can always pick the best targets. The dude that can take on half of you opponents army and win.

Changeling - completelly broken

So when you make a Tzeentch army you go: Changeling, Magnus, Brimstone spam, Flamers/Exflamers, maybe big bird(but might be overkill with Magnus), DPs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a link to the Mathammer
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8eV9EWFNsd19NMHM
It's on the weapons sheet.
Feel free to find errors if any :p

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Flamers - REALLY good.

The other day I ran 3 units of 9 flamers each. They are as good as they appear on paper.

In one round of shooting, I rolled my dice, looked up and said "Ok, that's 37 hits". He was in shock.
"Whats the STR and AP on that?" he asked me.
"STR 4 and -1 AP"
"How many hits?"
"37"
"That's from all the squads?"
"No...just these 9"

The average number of hits is 31.5. The damage output they put out is crazy.
The fact that they are pistols is almost insult to injury.
The big weakness is they are fairly vulnerable to attack. T4, 4++ 2 wounds just is not all that.

I have not used Magnus in a SINGLE Tzeentch list. He's an obvious target and gets singled out when the rest of your army is characters and horrors.

I will agree with the order is Changeling -> Horrors -> Exalted Flamers, but I do think Tzeentch Heralds have a place. For 83pts you get a foot herald with a 24 Smite. You have a 6" Move, d6 Advance, and 24" Smite giving you lots of room to clear ground.

I will note I've stopped taking them entirely, and have been subbing in a different unit, but I do still believe they're good. I would be completely on board with them getting a bonus to casting.

To be completely honest, if the codex or eventual FAQ hits Horrors too hard, or doesn't fix pinks, I'm simply going to run Renegades instead.

Well ofc he gets singled out. He's amazing. He can kill a knight in 1 turn very reliably (like 99%). That's a 415 killing a 600+ unit without breaking a sweat. And Knights are placing highly in tournaments so they are definitelly good.
Magnus will only make every list better.

Magnus is great, but when opponent start 1st he has hard times, for example the main list right now with 5 SR.... they can kill him in 1 turn, happened yesterday also with -1 from changeling, he had 5 SR and AM battalion, tons of fire and Magnus poof....

Exactly. In a world where Daemons have many, many drops, if your event is running RAW and you are NOT going first, Magnus is more often than not simply a 415pt Mulligan that saves the rest of your things a turn of shooting as he's deleted.

He's great. He just dies, almost instantly, when the most Daemon targets aren't able to be targeted besides him.

 blackmage wrote:
Magnus is great, but when opponent start 1st he has hard times, for example the main list right now with 5 SR.... they can kill him in 1 turn, happened yesterday also with -1 from changeling, he had 5 SR and AM battalion, tons of fire and Magnus poof....

Uh, SR spam is now deader than dead. If you ever have only Flyer units remaining you count as tabled per the new FAQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Exactly. In a world where Daemons have many, many drops, if your event is running RAW and you are NOT going first, Magnus is more often than not simply a 415pt Mulligan that saves the rest of your things a turn of shooting as he's deleted.

He's great. He just dies, almost instantly, when the most Daemon targets aren't able to be targeted besides him.

The dude has an insane threat range. 32'' + charge. Just place him out of range. Also, if they are running RAW first turn rule, I'd take Magnus, knight, 3rd superheavy + brimstones and cheese until they change it.

Uh, SR spam is now deader than dead. If you ever have only Flyer units remaining you count as tabled per the new FAQ

it is not you can just play 1 less SR and play 120 conscripts commisar and commander at least, is anyhting but dead, now just some lists has a chance against it trying to remove ground units, but it's not so simple when you have 120-150 models holding the ground, you should play some more warhammer40k

The dude has an insane threat range. 32'' + charge. Just place him out of range. Also, if they are running RAW first turn rule, I'd take Magnus, knight, 3rd superheavy + brimstones and cheese until they change it.

easy to say hard to do, many heavy weapons has long range or are mobile enough to get in range 1st turn (SR move wherever they want IK heavy weapons has 48"/84" inches range) , deep striking units can put you in troubles... etc...etc....

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
Magnus is great, but when opponent start 1st he has hard times, for example the main list right now with 5 SR.... they can kill him in 1 turn, happened yesterday also with -1 from changeling, he had 5 SR and AM battalion, tons of fire and Magnus poof....

Uh, SR spam is now deader than dead. If you ever have only Flyer units remaining you count as tabled per the new FAQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Exactly. In a world where Daemons have many, many drops, if your event is running RAW and you are NOT going first, Magnus is more often than not simply a 415pt Mulligan that saves the rest of your things a turn of shooting as he's deleted.

He's great. He just dies, almost instantly, when the most Daemon targets aren't able to be targeted besides him.

The dude has an insane threat range. 32'' + charge. Just place him out of range. Also, if they are running RAW first turn rule, I'd take Magnus, knight, 3rd superheavy + brimstones and cheese until they change it.

Have you... played with him?

Yes, he's very good, but he genuinely just instantly dies if he's your only large threat. I don't know how else to word this. In many instances, especially if you're going second, there isn't a "Just place him out of range".

And in your example of "I'd just take Magnus, Knight+(Probably another Knight),", I'd be thrilled to play against that list, because small character smiting things and tons of exalted flamers would chew it apart.

Again, MAGNUS IS GOOD, he's just not an absolutely auto include like Changeling/Horrors.

For what it's worth, I've had largely the same experience with Magnus in my own Thousand Sons lists. If you go first he deletes something big (unless "something big" is well screened), but otherwise he just gets focus fired down and dies. I just run Ahriman and 415 points of smaller yet still potent threats now.

Magnus+3 Ik struggles a lot against massive smite spam/tons of brimstone/exalted, he can just shoot/charge brimstones kill them then be killed by smites+exalted/Dp countercharge. But guess you already know it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:
For what it's worth, I've had largely the same experience with Magnus in my own Thousand Sons lists. If you go first he deletes something big (unless "something big" is well screened), but otherwise he just gets focus fired down and dies. I just run Ahriman and 415 points of smaller yet still potent threats now.

Magnus is great when you can offer more big and dangerous targets, like 2-3 IK's or lot of DP's or stuff like that, i stopped play it in my Tz demon list just cause it gives easily first blood and you practically play with 415 pts less.

I think running him alongside 2 Heldrakes is the best way to do it; they give him additional dangerous targets for shots to be tossed into and offer the best turn 1 charge assault support.

Arachnofiend wrote:
I think running him alongside 2 Heldrakes is the best way to do it; they give him additional dangerous targets for shots to be tossed into and offer the best turn 1 charge assault support.

helldrakes are fine but... they aren't so dangerous so usually Magnus is shooted down anyway 1st, better get drakes than that killing machine called Magnus.

Quick question, in Matched play how much of your army may be saved as Demonic Summoning Reserves?

However much as you set aside.

You could do a Patrol and have 1 Sorcerer and 1 10man Cultist squad and reserve 1900 points if you wanted.

In order for Magnus to excel, he really can't be the only "big dude" in the list.

Maggie+heldrakes
Maggie+Big Bird
(my fav) Maggie + Fireraptor.

Have I played with Magnus? Yes I have. And every time I did he lived for at least 2 turns and killed at least 800 pts. One time he killed 400 pts turn 1, then got targeted by about 1300 pts of CSM and knight next turn AND charged. Lost 2 wounds xD
That was a fun game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how does your T7, 3+/4++ re-roll 1s, 6+ feel no pain, -1 to hit dude you can place 40'' away from the action die turn 1? Do you play against las canon spam only

I mean, there are reports coming in from people that their meta is "Magnus"

I don't know if that been bring inside the daemon tactics, but any thought about Uraka and Samus. I look those two?

 hellpato wrote:
I don't know if that been bring inside the daemon tactics, but any thought about Uraka and Samus. I look those two?

Uraka seems pretty solid honestly, the only downside to him is his slow movement. I'm considering using him instead of a Helbrute even though the Helbrute is statswise better it's not a character. Samus seems kinda meh, like I can see him being useful in Word Bearer lists who want to summon a lot.

deleted post, meant to post in the chaos tactical thread.

I also played against a TS army with Magnus and he got 1 wound left on turn 2. You can let him charge - and surely destroy - horrors or cultits and then focus your entire firepower and smite on him. Nobody is going to let Magnus charge valuable units that can easily be surrounded by cheap troops.

Don't take me wrong, I love him, but he has a giant target on his ass. I would rather go with Be'Lakor or a couple of DP's instead.