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Longtime builder, first time player here.

I'm running Chaos Daemons (Nurgle / tzeentch) but I'm not sure how to best deal with ranged heavy armies in 8e.

So far I've only played a handful of games and my current strategy has been to try to rush the enemy during round 1, via foot or summoning, but if I don't make it round 1 I end up getting blasted to pieces by the enemy. Any strategies for dealing with higher mobility / firepower armies like Eldar & Tau would be appreciated!

Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.

Gents, I am on the verge of a difficult decision.
As an undivided player since I started playing Daemons many years ago, I have amassed a small collection of all 4 flavors of Daemon, including a Greater Daemon, lesser daemons and a few "specialty" deamons from each god.

It sadly doesn't look like I'll be using anything but Tzeentch with a smidge of Nurgle in this edition, and I may not even play daemons at all because I just don't have the time to play that I once did (I have currently only played 2 whole games of 8th). Eldar are my first love in 40K, so when I do get a game, it will likely be with them.

So I am selling off all my Khorne, Nurlge and Slaanesh models. With the extra cash, I will be getting some extra Eldar and maybe some more Tzeentch units.
What I am asking of the group, is what extra Tzeentch units I should expand on. This is what I have:


So aside from "more Brims" and "more Flamers/ E-flamers", what else do I need to fill out a viable semi-competitive list?

-

knas wrote:
I'm running Chaos Daemons (Nurgle / tzeentch) but I'm not sure how to best deal with ranged heavy armies in 8e.

Make sure there is LoS blocking terrain.
If you are playing on a blank table, shooting armies are hands down the best.

That's why events like NOVA, BAO, and LVO have so much terrain.

In other news, beyond the FW model and Slaughter Brute/Mutaliths has anyone found a suitable model to use in their place? The FW model is ugly as sin and the Mutaliths have been sold out for ages.

I'll be using a zombie dragon to run as a giant chaos spawn with my NL force.

Fits very well with Night Lords. I approve.

 Galef wrote:
what else do I need to fill out a viable semi-competitive list?

Honestly Galef , you can make a semi-competitive list out of any of the chaos gods.

I've been running a 'semi-competitive' nurgle list since 8th dropped and I've been doing well at my events. I'm winning about 2/3 of my games at local RTTs, which I'm pretty happy with. I'm not willing these events, but I'm landing slightly above middle of the pack -- which I'm happy with as I'm playing a 'themed army'.
If you are looking for a hyper-competitive list, then you should be asking a different question. The answer to that is 180+ brimstones and the changling. Add exalted flamers for spice.
Personally, I do not advise chasing that meta. It's easy to blow 200+ bucks on that only to have it made invalid with a FAQ or new codex drop. I would instead recommend building and painting what you like.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
what else do I need to fill out a viable semi-competitive list?

Honestly Galef , you can make a semi-competitive list out of any of the chaos gods.

I've been running a 'semi-competitive' nurgle list since 8th dropped and I've been doing well at my events. I'm winning about 2/3 of my games at local RTTs, which I'm pretty happy with. I'm not willing these events, but I'm landing slightly above middle of the pack -- which I'm happy with as I'm playing a 'themed army'.
If you are looking for a hyper-competitive list, then you should be asking a different question. The answer to that is 180+ brimstones and the changling. Add exalted flamers for spice.
Personally, I do not advise chasing that meta. It's easy to blow 200+ bucks on that only to have it made invalid with a FAQ or new codex drop. I would instead recommend building and painting what you like.

Sound advice as usual, thanks

My main hang up is the inability to take units from all 4 gods as I have done in the past. You really need to focus on 1-2 for a semi-competitive list. To that end, I have chosen Tzeentch with some Nurgle Princes. I have no intention of getting any more Brims. I have enough models for 4 units and Reinforcement points to summon more as those models die.
I am holding my breath for an FAQ before I buy more.

There's a good chance that I may sell it all since I just can't get enough games due to work and family obligations. I plan on putting all my Tzeentch stuff up for sale as well, just at a really high price. If it sells, great, if not, I'll keep the army.

-

 Galef wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
what else do I need to fill out a viable semi-competitive list?

Honestly Galef , you can make a semi-competitive list out of any of the chaos gods.

I've been running a 'semi-competitive' nurgle list since 8th dropped and I've been doing well at my events. I'm winning about 2/3 of my games at local RTTs, which I'm pretty happy with. I'm not willing these events, but I'm landing slightly above middle of the pack -- which I'm happy with as I'm playing a 'themed army'.
If you are looking for a hyper-competitive list, then you should be asking a different question. The answer to that is 180+ brimstones and the changling. Add exalted flamers for spice.
Personally, I do not advise chasing that meta. It's easy to blow 200+ bucks on that only to have it made invalid with a FAQ or new codex drop. I would instead recommend building and painting what you like.

Sound advice as usual, thanks

My main hang up is the inability to take units from all 4 gods as I have done in the past. You really need to focus on 1-2 for a semi-competitive list. To that end, I have chosen Tzeentch with some Nurgle Princes. I have no intention of getting any more Brims. I have enough models for 4 units and Reinforcement points to summon more as those models die.
I am holding my breath for an FAQ before I buy more.

There's a good chance that I may sell it all since I just can't get enough games due to work and family obligations. I plan on putting all my Tzeentch stuff up for sale as well, just at a really high price. If it sells, great, if not, I'll keep the army.

-

I understand how sometimes you need to sell your stuff.
If you have a list of ALL your models, I'l be happy to try and put together some daemon lists for you using all 4 gods.

Some solid tips, cheers!

Cephalobeard wrote:Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.

I find it hard to get a good ratio of horrors / plague bearers down, I usually end up bringing too few or too many of them.

labmouse42 wrote:

knas wrote:
I'm running Chaos Daemons (Nurgle / tzeentch) but I'm not sure how to best deal with ranged heavy armies in 8e.

Make sure there is LoS blocking terrain.
If you are playing on a blank table, shooting armies are hands down the best.

That's why events like NOVA, BAO, and LVO have so much terrain.

Hm, yeah we have had very little terrain when playing, and even when we do some models like the Changeling or heralds on a disc are almost impossible to hide from snipers because of their tall models!

knas wrote:
Hm, yeah we have had very little terrain when playing, and even when we do some models like the Changeling or heralds on a disc are almost impossible to hide from snipers because of their tall models!

That's a big problem.
Look at the layout below for the NOVA open 2017. This is what you should try and make your games look like -- or as close to it as possible. You need at least one big (preferably two) LOS blockers in the middle of the board. A good compromise if you don't have those is to say that ruins are opaque and you cannot see through them.

Otherwise, you are being placed at a gaming disadvantage. Reenacting Stalingrad with your 40k models may be fun for your opponent, but it's not a very interesting game. Play with the terrain layout below and you will see a big change.

A friend of mine is a Chaos player and has come up with an interesting tactic that he calls 'Speed Bumping,' which is basically turning your opponent's screening units into screens for your own Super Heavies and hard-hitters.

It involves summoning a single Fiend and using it to tie up a screening unit; then he assaults something big and scary into the screening unit. In the following player turn, the hard hitter will usually finish off the screen (which can't fall back) and can then move and charge, essentially allowing it to repeat the Speed Bump, without getting shot to pieces. It basically enables them to get to the juicier targets, without suffering said shooting.

Even with armies that can Fly (I play Tau and Eldar for example and have had this used against me), they still tend to need screening units which don't Fly, which is why the tactic is effective. Combine it with cheap screens (Horrors) and tying-up units (Nurglings) and it is possible to mitigate a lot of shooting.

So far the most effective combinations have been:

1) Knights: which can get tied up and then delete large sections of your enemies army with shooting, without reprisal. Cf Lord of Skulls and Autos'Keres (I forget the name).
2) Greater Daemons: who can be summoned with the fiend (KS and GUO) and have a high damage output and psychic powers, increasing the chances of killing the screening unit in the opposing player's turn and then getting to move/charge. Cf Magnus.
3) Berzerkers: getting to fight twice increases the likelihood of killing the screening unit in their turn, otherwise they can simply fight again and consolidate into a new unit in your own turn; then have the Fiend charge in.

He uses a different tactic to address flyer spam, which involves Summoning lots of Screamers, Horrors, Flamers and Exalted Flamers, but the beauty of the Summoning rules is that he can choose which units to Summon, depending on the situation. He has been playing a few games against the generic lists (Ravenspam, Hordes, Guilliman etc) and has yet to lose once, so far he is about 22-0, but the last time I spoke to him was before Codex: Space Marines, so I don't know if that has changed.

While I am not an expert on 40K, I think Summoning is pretty cool and it is something that only Chaos can do.

Summoning Flamers stinks in the 8e.

The range of their weaponry means they are unable to fire on a target after summoning and since they are less than ideal in CC, they are useless even if they do make that 50-50 charge roll of 8".

While Tzeentch's lesser Daemons were underwhelming in 7th, at least the Flamers could appear within striking distance and immolate at least one squad, now they appear to do nothing at all.

I can see the value of a Horror unit summoned as a screen though.

I am trying my Tzeentch Daemons as a fun Blood Bowl team. . . Extra Arms and some kind of Splitting makes for interesting games.

Fr33lander wrote:
While Tzeentch's lesser Daemons were underwhelming in 7th, at least the Flamers could appear within striking distance and immolate at least one squad, now they appear to do nothing at all.

Except burn things to an absolute cinder.

9 Flamers will average 31.5 STR 4, AP -1 hits on an enemy unit. That's a staggering amount of damage done to units.
Flamers can move 12" and can fly, meaning they can ignore terrain and leave combat to shoot.
They also have pistols, meaning they can shoot into combat.

3 full flamers squads with the changling nearby to give them -1 to be hit are downright nasty. I've tried them a few times and they are BBQ on a stick.

Scabeiathrax
I ran 'Scabby' for the first time tonight. Holy crap, he was good.
My opponent was a DE gun line with 4 flyers, 3 ravagers, 2 raiders and 2 venoms. That is not what I was wanting to play against :\
Scabby is T9, which means that the dark lances were wounding on a 5+. He took a few hits from the dark lances, but overall weathered multiple rounds of shooting without dying. The biggest weapons against him were the poisoned weapons (duh). Even still, a 4++, DR, and 6+ warlord trait ment he took a staggering amount of damage, and still was only dropped to 4 wounds left.
Every round Scabby healed himself D3 wounds, so over the course of 5 turns he healed himself up ~10 points. This makes him even harder to kill.
Against my DE opponent, Scabby did not have many targets. He did some mortal wounds to a flyer and then threw up on it. His biggest role was just soaking up tons of fire.

As a result, I'll probably keep taking him. He was a nice change, and I think worth it for my list.

Um... I think he meant summoning flamers. Since you summon them 9'' away and their guns are 8'' range.I doubt anyone would ever say they are bad :p

To be fair, "appear to do nothing at all" likely could have been worded better, but yeah, I believe the intent was "they appear AND THEN do nothing at all THAT TURN"

In other news, I caved and have purchased my first Mutalith for use as a Giant Chaos Spawn. I'll report back with how it does on the table after it's arrived and I've done some testing.

Fr33lander wrote:Summoning Flamers stinks in the 8e.

The range of their weaponry means they are unable to fire on a target after summoning and since they are less than ideal in CC, they are useless even if they do make that 50-50 charge roll of 8".

While Tzeentch's lesser Daemons were underwhelming in 7th, at least the Flamers could appear within striking distance and immolate at least one squad, now they appear to do nothing at all.

I can see the value of a Horror unit summoned as a screen though.

Drop them in or around another unit and so your opponent their overwatch to worry about. Bring them in after knowing your opponent has something they are good against.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.

I've been meaning to ask about this. I have tried to use horrors and just don't get it. At 10 points per model you get something with firepower, durability and melee capability similar to a guardsman (Ok, slightly more durable with 4++ save but still fragile) but without the supporting units. You can pay a ridiculous amount to give them the ability to split, but this just gives you more bodies that have no shooting and weak melee, and can contribute to failing your morale check by a larger margin.

Is it all about having lots of units of 5 to get off Smites? (thats only typically one smite going off per 3 units)? How do you make horrors work for you in 8th edition?

I quite like Flamers still (despite losing Template);- with flying and their flames being pistol weapons they are a lot less scared of melee than they used to be.

Mark.

Cheeslord wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.

I've been meaning to ask about this. I have tried to use horrors and just don't get it. At 10 points per model you get something with firepower, durability and melee capability similar to a guardsman (Ok, slightly more durable with 4++ save but still fragile) but without the supporting units. You can pay a ridiculous amount to give them the ability to split, but this just gives you more bodies that have no shooting and weak melee, and can contribute to failing your morale check by a larger margin.

Is it all about having lots of units of 5 to get off Smites? (thats only typically one smite going off per 3 units)? How do you make horrors work for you in 8th edition?

I quite like Flamers still (despite losing Template);- with flying and their flames being pistol weapons they are a lot less scared of melee than they used to be.

Mark.

The trick with horrors is not taking Pinks at all, but rather swathes of Brimstones with each unit having a single Blue Horror to cast Smite with (as Brimstones die if they cast Smite).

Cheeslord wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.

I've been meaning to ask about this. I have tried to use horrors and just don't get it. At 10 points per model you get something with firepower, durability and melee capability similar to a guardsman (Ok, slightly more durable with 4++ save but still fragile) but without the supporting units. You can pay a ridiculous amount to give them the ability to split, but this just gives you more bodies that have no shooting and weak melee, and can contribute to failing your morale check by a larger margin.

Is it all about having lots of units of 5 to get off Smites? (thats only typically one smite going off per 3 units)? How do you make horrors work for you in 8th edition?

I quite like Flamers still (despite losing Template);- with flying and their flames being pistol weapons they are a lot less scared of melee than they used to be.

Mark.

The concept behind Horrors splitting is that you can still hold and outnumber on an opponent while sitting on a objective even though you are taking casualties. So, the value of the Split rule is best achieved in Maelstrom missions.

Also, looking at the new Marine codex they have brought back troops getting 'objective secured'. Perhaps when we get our codex we'll get the same for daemon troops giving us a reason to actually use them besides extra wound screens for characters.

I have a question about taking Instruments of chaos: In the index book for Bloodletters it says for every ten models in the unit you can take one instrument of chaos. Does this mean if I take 30 Bloodletters I can take 3 instruments adding 3 to advance and charge rolls?

 TheWizard wrote:
I have a question about taking Instruments of chaos: In the index book for Bloodletters it says for every ten models in the unit you can take one instrument of chaos. Does this mean if I take 30 Bloodletters I can take 3 instruments adding 3 to advance and charge rolls?

Sadly no. The ability says if the unit contains "any" Instruments it gains +1" advance and charge. Not 1" per Instrument

 Galef wrote:

 TheWizard wrote:
I have a question about taking Instruments of chaos: In the index book for Bloodletters it says for every ten models in the unit you can take one instrument of chaos. Does this mean if I take 30 Bloodletters I can take 3 instruments adding 3 to advance and charge rolls?

Sadly no. The ability says if the unit contains "any" Instruments it gains +1" advance and charge. Not 1" per Instrument

Ah damn that would've made summoning amazing!! Haha

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


The trick with horrors is not taking Pinks at all, but rather swathes of Brimstones with each unit having a single Blue Horror to cast Smite with (as Brimstones die if they cast Smite).

Nice one! I somehow overlooked that you could start with brimstone and blue horrors. So a 23 point troop choice ... doesn't really need to achieve much but if it does it's a bonus (if it ever gets off the Smite it will probably kill more than its value...not to mention getting in the way and swarming objectives). Still, I will probably wait for the codex before committing to buying the huge number of models required for this...

Mark.

4th place BAO list:
2xGiant chaos spawn
5x malefic lord
A ton of brimstones
MAGNUS
2x Knight 2x avenger

Rofl. My 1500 pts list was very close to this. Except zarakynel instead of 1 knight and no Malefic Lord. Looks like I'm on the right track here

17th place(relevent on a 126 tournament
Dp wings (nurgle)
Epidemius
Herald
30 plaguebearers(icon(!!!), instrument)
2x 9 brim 1 blue
3 nurglings
2x malefic lord
Scabby
600 reserve points (WHAT)

NURGLE BEST ARMY??? SUMMONING ACTUALLY USEFUL???
Whelp. Any idea what was summoned? Bloodletter bombs? GUO/KoS? Ofc the answer is "literally anything" but...

Tournament ain't over yet. But this is interesting

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A pretty ok placing list had 8 beasts of nurgle and a soulgrinder... ok...

This past weekend I played in an ITC RTT with my Nurgle Army. This post is about what I learned and hopefully it will help you if you are thinking of rolling nurgle.



Round One : 3 Knights + Magnus
My first round against a 'boogyman' list with Michael Vagenos. Firstly, let me give a shout out to Mike. If you -ever- get the chance to play him, I highly recommend it. Even with a total 'cheezy net list' he was a fantastic player to play with. If you ever attend GTs and find yourself paired -- you will have a great game.
We were playing Nova format, mission one -- six objectives in a hex pattern.
I got first furn and moved forward with Scaggy in the middle and my two plaguebearer squads to either side.
Mike brought 3 knights, two of them with dual avenger cannons and the third with a sword and double battle cannon. He played near perfectly. He focused on flank, hitting one squad of plaguebearers with 2 knights and magnus -- doing little overall. Scaggy giving a -1 to hit, combined with a the -1 from the 'cloud of flies' means titanic feet are hitting on a 5+. They managed to kill a total of 10 plaguebearers, forcing me to blow two command points to keep them around without battle shock wounds.
Magnus tried to warptime to fly over my blob nuke then assault Scaggy, but I blocked his warptime.
That next round Magnus left the combat to fly into my rear, and Scaggy went into combat to smack around some knights. Scaggy buffed himself with the nurgle power that gives +1 to wound -- and completely wrecked two knights. Magus found himself staring down 9 smites plus Scaggy's vomit, then fell over dead.
Scaggy then bounced to the other knight, killing it. On turn four, his final knight rushed into Scaggy, taking 6 wounds of the overwatch only to get himself killed.
The total score was 15 to 2

Round Two: 2 Knights/Magnus/Brimstones/2 Princes/Belakor
I rushed forward with my drones and my prince up a flank -- and he moved Be'Lakor and Magnus up and wrecked that assault.
I gave up first blood through this mistake and a turn of 'butcher's bill'.
The rest of the game was me sitting on my objectives and him sitting on his -- he was afraid to move into smite spam range, and I could not advance forward enough to grab the objectives.
The total score was 8 to 10, with Dan Bunker winning. Had I kept my plague drones and nurglings back -- and taking Heart of the Matter and Progressive scoring, I would have won.
However, the way the game worked out -- the total score was low for both of us. We were both knocked out of running for the whole RTT.

Round Three: Imperial Fists
This was mission four of Nova, which is 4 objectives plus kill points.
Cary Gould -- another fantastic guy to play with -- brought a very well rounded marine list. The deployment was hammer and anvil.
It was a pretty simple game. He sat back and shot at me. The plague drones wrecked his storm raven, and Scaggy eventually got into the battle ripping apart 4 units on turn 6 - solidifying my win.
I pulled the game out 15 to 2.

Takeaways
* The malific lords really do combo well with this list -- they are the grease on the wheels. When people stick flyers or Magnus in my face, it get's smited down. They don't have good range, so they are not good for long range damage. They are almost more of a defensive bonus to the units -- which they do very well. 6 mortal wounds of damage a turn standing in the middle of 30 plaguebearers is a big "stay away" sign. I don't suggest bringing 15 of them. 6 is about the magic number I think -- with maybe 8 on the high end. They are really good, but lost effectiveness because of the lack of range.

* The stacking of -1 to hit in the fight phase between scaggy and the plaguebearers is bonkers good. It halves the damage output of knights doing the 'river dance' move.
On the same subject, the plauge bearers were again boss. In my third game, my opponent spent 3 full rounds shooting at one squad to not even completely kill it. Only in the first game did they take enough damage to lose one squad. 30 plaguebearers are just dead hard to remove at this point in 8th edition.

* I'm going to drop the plague drones and prince and pick up some bloat-drones from the starter boxed set. I'm just not 100% happy with the plague drones and they felt slightly out of place. I might replace them with some death guard with the codex comes out.

* I'll probably also drop the herald and upgrade to Epidemius. I kill enough crap in games to rack up the bonus' when things get close. In the past 6 games I've played, there has only been one fight (against knights) that the +1 STR has been worthwhile. In every other case it's not worth it. Epi is 30 more points and a lot harder to kill.

* The list does not score max game every game in Nova format -- it's not possible given the Butchers Bill. It does well, as evidence by me pulling 2 victories against national level players. However, it won't win first place at a GT anytime soon - mostly because of the lack of ability to rack up the butcher's bill vs shooty armies, and that the only secondary you can guarantee is "Heart of the Matter" .
Likewise it's also really hard to pick secondary's against it, and to rack up 'Butchers Bill'. Linebreaker seems great, but often things just sit back and avoid me. Titanslayer is another red herring. Scaggy takes 1/3 of a wound per LC shot. (I can go into the deep math if you really want) Cull the herds is another red herring. You are NOT going to be killing 60 plaguebearers.
If you want to play a game where you sit on objectives, throw a party and invite your opponent to come join - it's a great list.
I personally think it's a hell of a lot of fun -- but everyone's mileage my vary.

* Scaggy is an absolute beast. He strugs of lascannon shots (each one does 1/3 of a wound per shot on average). He absolutely destroyed anything he touched. In the RTT and the two practice games before - he was the complete MVP. His ability to one shots knights is fantastic. When buffed with Virulent Blessing, on 'to wound' rolls of a 6, he is doing 12 damage -- which is simply silly overkill. in one round I did 36 wounds to a fortification. The damage output is just silly. This is good because it gives board control. You stick scaggy in the middle of the board, and you have a threat area with a radius of 14" where you basically kill anything that get's near.

* The nurglings seemed to do better holding backfield objectives than rushing forward. In the third game I stuck them on an objective and it worked out great. I think I'll keep them in that role moving forward. They are only 5 points per wound. If you run the math, for backfield objectives they are cheaper than poxwalkers.

* Plague drones plus the Virulent Blessing still work out very well. When I assaulted a storm raven, He had to make 9 saves that were doing 4 damage each. That completely wrecked the raven. The blessing just compounds so well with damage of 2 or more -- since the total damage is doubled.

Apologies for a question on what is perhaps an obvious, but when you are refering to 'Malefic lord' - What unit is that?

I search a few pages back and the Index: Chaos, plus looked at the index of the FW Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of Chaos, but didn't find the answer in either places.

Spiky Norman wrote:
Apologies for a question on what is perhaps an obvious, but when you are refering to 'Malefic lord' - What unit is that?

I search a few pages back and the Index: Chaos, plus looked at the index of the FW Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of Chaos, but didn't find the answer in either places.

It's a HQ from the Renegades & Heretics list in Imperial Armour - Index: Forces of the Astra Millitarum.

Hello my daemon friends; I'm a CSM player and I'm trying to get at least one unit from each Legion, and as part of that I expect to get a lot of Chaos characters, who can now summon daemons. In a list primarily built around CSM (Beserkers in Rhinos, Havocs at the back, Slaanesh marines slogging up the board and clinging to objectives and cover in the middle). I realise this isn't a very helpful description of my army, but how would you use Daemons, particularly summons, to beef a marine force up?

Plaguebearers seem too slow and not very killy, the Daemonettes could work for making absolutely sure you get the first attack from the quicksilver rule, but Bloodletters, as per normal, seem really to be the very best lesser daemon in the book.