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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Spiky Norman wrote:
Apologies for a question on what is perhaps an obvious, but when you are refering to 'Malefic lord' - What unit is that?

I search a few pages back and the Index: Chaos, plus looked at the index of the FW Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of Chaos, but didn't find the answer in either places.

It's a HQ from the Renegades & Heretics list in Imperial Armour - Index: Forces of the Astra Millitarum.

Thanks, found it now :-)

Fantastic write up as always, Labmouse. I'm glad that bit of Lord Tech worked out well for you!

Spiky Norman wrote:
Apologies for a question on what is perhaps an obvious, but when you are refering to 'Malefic lord' - What unit is that?

I search a few pages back and the Index: Chaos, plus looked at the index of the FW Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of Chaos, but didn't find the answer in either places.

The quick summary of them are the following
* No weapons.
* 4++ save
* Full psyker, casting on normal dice. Their renegades and heretics powers are such high costs to cast you are just better off with smite statically.
* Move 6 - which means they don't work if you are playing a fast moving force.
* 4 wounds
* If they perils, their statline increases to the level of a min-daemon prince. In my 6 games using them, it's happened twice.
* HQ slot
* 30 points

They are good. There is no doubt to that, but they are a bit hyped online right now. You will see some lists sporting 15 of them, but the reality is that you wont get to use all those smites. The short range and short move range means they just can't hit every round.
Don't get me wrong, when a flyer gets close, it gets burned hard as multiple smites just hammer into it. In the past 6 games smites have wrecked tau flyers, DE flyers, Magnus, and did 6 points to a stormraven this game. In other games my smites have done the same thing to eldar wraithflyers.

You also cannot walk through through your own models, so you have to create a 'pocket for them. This can make movement tricky. Your opponent should not let you just move all of them forward intermingled into plaguebearers. This allowed a flyer to come land behind a lord and kill it. I've had lords assaulted because of this as well.
Of course, the flyers died the next turn from the other lords, heralds, and scaggy.....

Again, it depends on the army you are playing. In some cases they are great. Their best perk is that they are cheap. Dropping 180 points for 6 of them to fill up to Supreme Command detachments and gain 2 CPs and gain 6 smites in your backfield is pretty nice...

As a note, they also mean that you will be always be going last (in the case of auto-go first mechanics) or you will be losing the +1 to the die roll. My nurgle army does not care, because it's just so damn tough. However, if you are playing a more fragile army, upping your total drops to 14+ may be a bad thing.
That said, I often would drop a squad of plaguebearers with my pocket created, then drop in 3 lords in them. I would repeat the excerecise on the other side, drop scaggy and the herald in the middle and usually my opponent was done deploying by them. This let me think about where I wanted to put bloat drones, prince and nurgling to the best advantage.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Fantastic write up as always, Labmouse. I'm glad that bit of Lord Tech worked out well for you!

Definitely. Thanks for the tip.

I'm really trying my best not to make people go crazy about them. They are very good. Perhaps even on the level of Magnus, Conscripts, Stromravens. or Brimstones.
When the meta shifts away from super-heavies and people start using cheap screening units (like conscripts) they become a lot less effective.
What I'm hoping is that people don't run out and throw 13 in a list and expect to auto-win.
That's why i keep describing them as a counter-unit.

Yes.

Agreed.

I'm using a mix of them and Herald's on Discs. Let's me maintain cheap, efficient shirt range smite's and the ability to track down faster targets and maneuver better with fly, etc.

I'm also excited to add my 3 Giant Spawn, however it appears I won't be receiving them all in the mail in time for when I'd like to.

As with all things Daemons, a mix of units proves to be the important note.

 labmouse42 wrote:

As a note, they also mean that you will be always be going last (in the case of auto-go first mechanics) or you will be losing the +1 to the die roll. My nurgle army does not care, because it's just so damn tough. However, if you are playing a more fragile army, upping your total drops to 14+ may be a bad thing.

Unless you pop them all in a transport, which R&H have. The idea of flying valykries, ogryns and maelific lords around has a certain appeal. Ridiculous movement.
(1 deployment drop can fit 3 flyers, 3 ogryn units of 3 & 9 lords)

 blackmage wrote:
demons and genestealer, or everyone not having a save 3+ or better, just die quick against demonettes thanks to huge number of attacks. I dont want argue with u, but mathammer is pointless, play and see is the better school. sorry for the bother.

Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments

The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big

 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big

Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.

Looking for any kind of advice on Khorne.

Since 8th is all about shooting or smiting, and he lacks both, what is a way to play him so im not just tabled all the time?

I feel a single land raider with Kharn and Berzerkers is a must, as it gets him there nd atleast has lascannons. Anyone else have successful experience in a pure Khorne Deamon/World Eater army?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big

Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.

Because a Seeker is 19ppm and comes in units of multiple models. They're, by nature, more defensive against Las Cannons and other high damage, low shot attacks. A Helldrake as a single model, while decent, is not an obvious "just do this" over the Seekers. Clearly it worked for the person piloting this list, and perhaps we'll get their opinion eventually.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments

What else was in his list? The seekers are just a small piece.
Where did the other daemon players rank?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments

What else was in his list? The seekers are just a small piece.
Where did the other daemon players rank?

According to BCP there was only one Daemon player in the Top 8, and only 2 in the Top 18.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments

What else was in his list? The seekers are just a small piece.
Where did the other daemon players rank?

According to BCP there was only one Daemon player in the Top 8, and only 2 in the Top 18.

I saw one Chaos player in the top 8, and the next at 18. Chaos could be CSM and daemons, heretics, etc...

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments

What else was in his list? The seekers are just a small piece.
Where did the other daemon players rank?

According to BCP there was only one Daemon player in the Top 8, and only 2 in the Top 18.

I saw one Chaos player in the top 8, and the next at 18. Chaos could be CSM and daemons, heretics, etc...

Makes all the people whining about Daemons and Horrors pretty ironic to me, considering how balance this top 8/16 Ended up looking at the end.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big

Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.

Helldrakes arent nearly close about damage output, Too few attacks Too low ap and very vulnerables to multi damage weapons

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big

Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.

Helldrakes arent nearly close about damage output, Too few attacks Too low ap and very vulnerables to multi damage weapons

Which is what I said after the first 2 sentences, yes.
You said seekers are all about speed. Which is not true. It's the fact that they have speed and damage. The horse attacks are not an afterthought. They are at least 40% of the model's damage.
Daemonettes are an afterthought at the moment. It's like they don't have any redeeming qualities.

It's also literally what Blackmage wrote, then you quoted him asking a question and then repeating what he wrote, yes

If you're going to vaguely ask a question, try not to come off as snippity when you receive replies. Makes you end up looking a little rude.

Edit:

He did NOT say they're all about speed, he said their speed AND CHARGE which obviously implies them attacking and doing damage.

Are the FW indexes considered eligible in general? Or just in certain parts of the community?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big

Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.

Helldrakes arent nearly close about damage output, Too few attacks Too low ap and very vulnerables to multi damage weapons

Which is what I said after the first 2 sentences, yes.
You said seekers are all about speed. Which is not true. It's the fact that they have speed and damage. The horse attacks are not an afterthought. They are at least 40% of the model's damage.
Daemonettes are an afterthought at the moment. It's like they don't have any redeeming qualities.

wait if you compare helldrakes with seekers of course there is no match about damage... a fact is seekers are playesd over demonetters cause they are faster and demonettes cant move advance and assault, in a game like 8th edition you cant afford to wait 1 more turn to charge with fragile units like demonettes.

 blackmage wrote:
, in a game like 8th edition you cant afford to wait 1 more turn to charge with fragile units like demonettes.

That's actually a realization that hit me last weekend while playing with my Nurgle army.
In most games, I want to go first. The odds of me giving up first blood are so small, that it's not really a huge concern. If my opponent rushes me, it's one more turn of smite spamming. If they are just hanging back, it nets to total number of turns i have to weather fire while squatting on objectives.

str00dles1 wrote:
Looking for any kind of advice on Khorne.

Since 8th is all about shooting or smiting, and he lacks both, what is a way to play him so im not just tabled all the time?

I feel a single land raider with Kharn and Berzerkers is a must, as it gets him there nd atleast has lascannons. Anyone else have successful experience in a pure Khorne Deamon/World Eater army?

Blood crushers, blood slaughterers, berzerkers, demon princes with wings, herald's on Juggernauts summoning in bloodletters. You can also mix with CSM shooty things and still be good fluff wise.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/01/legion-focus-iron-warriors-aug-1gw-homepage-post-2/

You thought Magnus was good before. Now he has something worthwhile to cast for that third power (After Warp Time & Smite). Hello Magnus with a 3++ re-rolling 1's!

3++ Rerolling 1s Magnus is definitely a thing. He's gonna have an even stronger form on the table.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
3++ Rerolling 1s Magnus is definitely a thing. He's gonna have an even stronger form on the table.

I dunno man... Maggie lasts about 2 rounds right now against a tough list. With this, he'll last at least the 3rd round if that power goes off.

 whembly wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
3++ Rerolling 1s Magnus is definitely a thing. He's gonna have an even stronger form on the table.

I dunno man... Maggie lasts about 2 rounds right now against a tough list. With this, he'll last at least the 3rd round if that power goes off.

I'm not using him at all now. I would consider using him with a better range of powers, and the ability to ensure he may live longer.

Incidentally, i'm probably being dense, but what does including the 1 blue-horror, in units of Brimstones, actual do?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, i'm probably being dense, but what does including the 1 blue-horror, in units of Brimstones, actual do?

If you have all brimmies and they cast a power, they automatically lost a model. Having one blue-horrors works around that by virtue of being the caster.

 whembly wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, i'm probably being dense, but what does including the 1 blue-horror, in units of Brimstones, actual do?

If you have all brimmies and they cast a power, they automatically lost a model. Having one blue-horrors works around that by virtue of being the caster.

Much appreciated. Thanks. It had been bugging me. :-p

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
3++ Rerolling 1s Magnus is definitely a thing. He's gonna have an even stronger form on the table.

I dunno man... Maggie lasts about 2 rounds right now against a tough list. With this, he'll last at least the 3rd round if that power goes off.

I'm not using him at all now. I would consider using him with a better range of powers, and the ability to ensure he may live longer.

Actually... I take it back.

This new powah + a Command-point reroll (re-roll that 2!) will make him quite groovy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 whembly wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, i'm probably being dense, but what does including the 1 blue-horror, in units of Brimstones, actual do?

If you have all brimmies and they cast a power, they automatically lost a model. Having one blue-horrors works around that by virtue of being the caster.

Much appreciated. Thanks. It had been bugging me. :-p

Feel free to ask... there are no dumb questions... lord knows I ask those all the time!

Oh yeah and about Magnus: I think there was a grand total of 1 list who didn't use him: the mysterious 600 summoning pts Nurgle list