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 Cephalobeard wrote:
Brimstones, while useful, are hardly an essential in my army. I will be just as content taking blues that split if necessary.

Blues got nerfed as well so...

Like, do you enjoy the way you play? Do you think others enjoy having only 1 target available to them until turn 3 or so - brimstones?

The smite change is largely inconsequential, it doesn't matter.

Are you asking if my opponents are having fun shooting at horrors because every other model in my army is a character? Because that has nothing to do with horrors, it has everything to do with characters.

I enjoy my army greatly, and my opponents certainly get frustrated, but they're not frustrated with BRIMSTONES, they're frustrated that I don't present a single viable target for their shooting. Because there isn't one. Ever model is sub 100pts and they gain no immediate benefit trying to kill one over the other.

Ok, the army isn't about horrors. Bam, they're gone. All you have left is characters (and 1 or 2 characters more to compensate for the loss of brimstones).

And the opponents are frustrated and that's a BAD thing. All daemon troops should cost at least 7 pts since you can't punch through them due to invul.

Like, wouldn't you like it much more if all the other units were great. Screamers would move really fast and do an insane amount of damage and the "fly-over" ability wouldn't be the garbage it is now. For example

 Cephalobeard wrote:

spaceclown wrote:

Cephalobeard wrote: Have my list finalized for my RTT on Saturday.

Changeling, 9 Lords, 3 Disc Heralds, 3 Giant Spawn, 3x 1 blue 19 brimstones, 1x 1 Blue 17 Brimstones, 8 Exalted Flamers.

365pts for Summoning.

Depending on the opponent, it'll either be 2 Foot Herald's +20-30 Horrors, 50+ Horrors, Flamers/Exalted Flamers, etc.

Feeling good about the overall make up, and with 9 Malefic Lords as well as 3 Discs, I'll be able to cover ground with all sorts of smites.

What's your strategy with the summoning? Get a Herald in range for smite, and on turn 2 summon flamers for a turn 3 effectiveness?

Nope! Much simpler. Deploy a Malefic Lord further up, as he isn't Tzeentch I don't need to care about him being near the changeling, and I summon a blob of horrors or a herald just within his 12", creating either a forward wall of horrors, or as the Heralds have staves a 36" range smite. If I know I can't move a lord to be within range for his 18" Smite, I just summon in a herald to get it off.

I hate to burst your bubble as I play a near identical list. But heralds staff increases their smite range to 24", not 36"(that's kairos only, regular Lord of changes have 30"). Still longer range so your point is still mostly valid. Just keep in mind it's not 36" herald smite range.

Ecdain wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

spaceclown wrote:

Cephalobeard wrote: Have my list finalized for my RTT on Saturday.

Changeling, 9 Lords, 3 Disc Heralds, 3 Giant Spawn, 3x 1 blue 19 brimstones, 1x 1 Blue 17 Brimstones, 8 Exalted Flamers.

365pts for Summoning.

Depending on the opponent, it'll either be 2 Foot Herald's +20-30 Horrors, 50+ Horrors, Flamers/Exalted Flamers, etc.

Feeling good about the overall make up, and with 9 Malefic Lords as well as 3 Discs, I'll be able to cover ground with all sorts of smites.

What's your strategy with the summoning? Get a Herald in range for smite, and on turn 2 summon flamers for a turn 3 effectiveness?

Nope! Much simpler. Deploy a Malefic Lord further up, as he isn't Tzeentch I don't need to care about him being near the changeling, and I summon a blob of horrors or a herald just within his 12", creating either a forward wall of horrors, or as the Heralds have staves a 36" range smite. If I know I can't move a lord to be within range for his 18" Smite, I just summon in a herald to get it off.

I hate to burst your bubble as I play a near identical list. But heralds staff increases their smite range to 24", not 36"(that's kairos only, regular Lord of changes have 30"). Still longer range so your point is still mostly valid. Just keep in mind it's not 36" herald smite range.

No bubble bursted. They have a THREAT RANGE of 36".

12" Move, 24" smite.



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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ok, the army isn't about horrors. Bam, they're gone. All you have left is characters (and 1 or 2 characters more to compensate for the loss of brimstones).

And the opponents are frustrated and that's a BAD thing. All daemon troops should cost at least 7 pts since you can't punch through them due to invul.

Like, wouldn't you like it much more if all the other units were great. Screamers would move really fast and do an insane amount of damage and the "fly-over" ability wouldn't be the garbage it is now. For example

My being content with how my army is now is entirely separate from wanting to see the rest of my choices be good. I simply don't agree the answer to make the others better is to improve them and reduce the ones I AM enjoying.

You want to make Pinks cost 7ppm and give me split for free at a 1:1:1 ratio and I'll happily take what you're suggesting. Otherwise, GW made this mess with split and they aren't fixing the issue. There's zero reason to use pinks. Period. They're awful.

I get it, you hate Brimstones. That doesn't mean they're carrying MY style of army, though.


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Hell, I'll even add this. If I had another troop choice, I'd use it just to prove a point. I guarantee I'd still be undefeated with my list if I was using cultists or tzaangors.

I welcome any change they make to horrors, because it changes nothing in regards to how I play. They're literally just bodies.

I don't hate Brimstones. I hate buckets of cheap expendable troops that are only there to die: brimstones, blues, vanilla cultists, conscripts. There is no fun or strategy to only have 1 target to shoot. Tell me, what can your opponents do against that with a TAC list? Nothing. Now immagine, you face a 75% sniper list. You'd be screwed, what could you do? Nothing. (and if you could still win, that'd be even worse since you can't lose even against your main counter)

This is not what I want of the meta game. This rock-paper-scissors gak is dumb.

Army styles will exist.

Counters to those will exist.

Not every army will be a TAC.

I can't think of any game like that, and quite honestly it sounds very boring. I don't want to endlessly move the same models 6" forward while my opponent moves 6" forward and we each shoot the same guns.

I loved that I played 3 very different styles of armies. I loved knowing the Ork player with 200+ boys playing next to me had an army that was scary to mine.

Armies can have their styles. But the styles shouldn't be so gamewarping as to force a Rock-Paper-Scissors metagame. DO you like games 80% predetermined because of the opponent you drew or because you didn't go first? Is this the game you want 40k to be?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right now you can easily call how a big majority of games will end after turn 1. And that's not good.

So, with Csm dropping the points of lesser daemons, how exactly is that going to work with the index? Take a detachment of Csm for the leaders? And couldn't you still take brimstone s in a daemon index list? Woyldnt this make Csm better at daemons than daemons?

You can take CSM stuff in your detachment of daemons and lose nothing. Basically it just reduced their cost. Forget about the CSM part

What do you guys suggest using for the giant chaos spawn model?

inb4 the 55 pound Giant chaos spawn FW model.

I use Mutaliths. They're $85 each.

Rvd, I'm ceding the argument. We don't and won't agree.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
What do you guys suggest using for the giant chaos spawn model?

inb4 the 55 pound Giant chaos spawn FW model.

Mutalith beasts are best but are currently out of stock online and unsure when they restocking. I ran into the same problem and found a great counts as in the form of morbidex twiceborn(nurgle rotbringers from AoS). I took the rider off and it was great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I use Mutaliths. They're $85 each.

Rvd, I'm ceding the argument. We don't and won't agree.

I run a near identical list to yours and am also undefeated. I get this argument a LOT from the same people in tourney's. Noone likes to lose, it's that simple. They will always complain about how they lost no matter what it is. Best to ignore and move on.

Ecdain wrote:

 Lord Commissar wrote:
What do you guys suggest using for the giant chaos spawn model?

inb4 the 55 pound Giant chaos spawn FW model.

Mutalith beasts are best but are currently out of stock online and unsure when they restocking. I ran into the same problem and found a great counts as in the form of morbidex twiceborn(nurgle rotbringers from AoS). I took the rider off and it was great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I use Mutaliths. They're $85 each.

Rvd, I'm ceding the argument. We don't and won't agree.

I run a near identical list to yours and am also undefeated. I get this argument a LOT from the same people in tourney's. Noone likes to lose, it's that simple. They will always complain about how they lost no matter what it is. Best to ignore and move on.

Yeah. Not super worried about it. My list IS difficult to beat, but that's the point. I don't want to make a list that's easy to beat.

I just don't like the assertion that I'm being carried by a single unit, when I'm using a variety of units and my list is different than most popular Daemon lists, let alone abusing horrors for some kind of benefit.

That being said, I'm strongly considering doing up a "Spawn Wrangler" list with The Changeling traveling with 3-6 Giant Spawn and a Daemon Prince, and just advancing into the opponent with the huge, regenerating, very difficult to hit/wound beasts that want to do 12 attacks each in melee.

I don't think it's because they want an easy win, it's more that nobody want to play against armies were you see no land, regardless of what you do.

It's frustrating to play against hordes of 4++ 2 (or now 3) point cheap models, that give a feth if they die.

Oh you shoot half your army in my screen of Brims or Conscripts, doesn't matter, another 200 brims (consripts etc) are waiting to get killed. Meanwhile remove everything you have, because i am killing it with Mortal wounds and volumes of high strength shooting.


Think that's exactly the point, why so many people are raging about this.

It's one thing to fight against an army and think you can achiev something even when you loose in the end. But fighting against a horde of bulletsponges with untargetable dudes behind is kinda frustrating.


Only my point of view. Never will play such a list, but i also won't refuse to play against it at a tournament.

Personal tipp, don't play to win at all cost it destroys the fun you have while playing. And don't invest in FOTM Builds .

Don't know what to tell you, folks. Brimstones die. In numbers. They melt to morale and melee, in my experience.

You're going to be angry about the unit either way, so continuing any counter point to "ARRGHH BRIMSTONES" is just screaming into the Void.

GW has already "nerfed" them once, and will likely do it again.

I, genuinely, wish I had another troop choice. Because I'd still do just as well as I have been.

I get that Tzeench is the new hotness and Nurgle and Slaanesh each have useful units to sprinkle in, but I have a monotheist Khorne army that I am trying to figure out how to make work. Very interested to hear other people's experiences so far.

What I have is about 35 bloodletters, skulltaker, 6 'crushers, a cannon, a herald on juggie, winged DP, 10 hounds, DV helbrute, possessed and a squad of terminators.

Obviously, the main idea is to get the termies as deep on their side as possible, hopefully kill something important and distract the enemy from mowing down all of my glass daemons.

My question is how many of those 'crushers and 'letters should I hold back for future summons? Or should I just deploy all and plan to summon replacements from my dead pool?

Should I blob up the 'letters to the max for bonuses or go MSU for survivability?

Also, how screwed am I in general for sticking to Khorne only?

Khornes in a really bad place right now. I can't help much, sorry friend. Good luck.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I get that Tzeench is the new hotness and Nurgle and Slaanesh each have useful units to sprinkle in, but I have a monotheist Khorne army that I am trying to figure out how to make work. Very interested to hear other people's experiences so far.

What I have is about 35 bloodletters, skulltaker, 6 'crushers, a cannon, a herald on juggie, winged DP, 10 hounds, DV helbrute, possessed and a squad of terminators.

Obviously, the main idea is to get the termies as deep on their side as possible, hopefully kill something important and distract the enemy from mowing down all of my glass daemons.

My question is how many of those 'crushers and 'letters should I hold back for future summons? Or should I just deploy all and plan to summon replacements from my dead pool?

Should I blob up the 'letters to the max for bonuses or go MSU for survivability?

Also, how screwed am I in general for sticking to Khorne only?

I play mono slaanesh but we have very similar playstyles we both want to get into close combat fast where we should due to our superior CQC abilities win, the main problem is we need to mitigate loses taken on our large units of lesser daemons so they can arrive with enough bodies to massacre the opposition.

A really good unit for this will be chaos bikers with chaos renegade legion trait for advance and charge, give them an icon of wrath and they have a first turn threat range of 22 - 32 inches, helldrakes can also fill this niche due to there 30 inch movement.

Alternatively you can use terminators in this role drop in a decent sized number 9 inch away even if they fail there charge your opponent needs to deal with them as they are a more pressing issue than the horde of bloodletters advancing up the board.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I get that Tzeench is the new hotness and Nurgle and Slaanesh each have useful units to sprinkle in, but I have a monotheist Khorne army that I am trying to figure out how to make work. Very interested to hear other people's experiences so far.

What I have is about 35 bloodletters, skulltaker, 6 'crushers, a cannon, a herald on juggie, winged DP, 10 hounds, DV helbrute, possessed and a squad of terminators.

Obviously, the main idea is to get the termies as deep on their side as possible, hopefully kill something important and distract the enemy from mowing down all of my glass daemons.

My question is how many of those 'crushers and 'letters should I hold back for future summons? Or should I just deploy all and plan to summon replacements from my dead pool?

Should I blob up the 'letters to the max for bonuses or go MSU for survivability?

Also, how screwed am I in general for sticking to Khorne only?

I have mono Khorne. It plain sucks, as of writing this. Perhaps in the codex, since the world eaters get a buff ( and hopefully don't increase in cost) it will be better. The issue is its very anti khorne goals when your leader cant move to summon, yet your herald wants to rush in and murderface (or any other characters). Or you throw out any sort of fluff and take Sorcs to cast warptime or other generic psyker spells on your own troops to get in there. Though, you can go the AoS route and call them blood priests to give them "blood magic".

What I will try is Zerkers in a rhino and raider with deamon support and hopefully enough stuff to make it to the enemy before dying. It failed a few times already but we will see.

Cool, thanks for the suggestions all! I think I'm going to wait for the codex to drop before buying or selling anything. Will play around in the meantime and see what happens.

@sillypeoplewithspam It has nothing to do with winning or losing. You lose games all the time. It has everything to do with wasting someone else's time because he can't win the game to begin with.
What sounds more fun: "ok, I will shoot this at that, then this at that and hm... how do I split them to make those die to morale or make him burn CP....hm.. actually that other guy is not threatning to me, but he is next to an objective... can I survive this assault if I shoot some at that guy..." OR "shooting your brimstones, hit, wound, save, shooting your brimstones, hit wound save"x20 + "ok, this is smite number 12, do you wanna deny,no, ok smite, d3 wounds, ok smite number 13, do you wanna deny, no, ok, d3 wounds, smite number 14..."

Also:
"Per GW (and exactly the same in AoS), the most recent version of any datasheet is the one you use. So, the new Brimstone datasheet trumps that used in the Index, and the same goes for any other duplicate datasheet." - Reece.
And he's confirmed it with GW
Source: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/06/new-codexes-up-for-pre-order-chaos-space-marines-and-grey-knights/#comments




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Cool, thanks for the suggestions all! I think I'm going to wait for the codex to drop before buying or selling anything. Will play around in the meantime and see what happens.

I find mono-khorne daemon army impossible to win with at the moment in a competitive setting. However, the bloody mailman (a dumb name I made up) is a pretty good idea. Use Nurgle(for example since they are tough) to walk down the field and have a skulltaker/khorne herald within them. He summons letters (4/8 PL is easy to roll with 3 dice. Even 12 isn't unlikelly) They charge with the instrument and obliterate what they touch as they are, as of now the best melee unit in the game damage per point. For comparison: genestealers: 0.11 letters 0,139. Also letters have more AP. At 7 pts per dude, they're preeeeeeeeeetty good.

Alternativelly you can just take Malefic Lords instead and summon whatever is necessary: daemonettes against low armour, toughness hordes and letters vs everything else. And you think for yourself if you should summon a herald by comparing the str vs toughness of your target.

full review of Khorne Daemons here https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/05/chapter-tactics-37-bao-results-and-meta-analysis-w-bao-champ-brandon-grant/#comment-549942

I have a pretty huge khorne army myself and I can attest... Its pretty bad. 7pt letters is a great start, but now it really high lights how bad 20pt fleshounds and 340 point thirsters are.

A sad part is skarbrands auras would actually make the army somewhat viable but alas his 16 wounds dooms him in any game that's not a joke. It's like a cruel joke in the end. Imagine if you had Morale immunity, +1a on all your squads and the enemy actually had to deal with your army instead of just Las cannon to the face of the big one.

The part that kills me with khorne is they had a decent system with blood tithe in seventh that Gw just silently squatted... While keeping the ynnarri meta faction.

I've been doing khorne + csm and haven't had too much trouble yet (haven't played competitively yet though). I run DP, crushers, slaughterers, berzerkers, herald, letters, cultists and forgefiend/maulerfied. I figure if I have enough scary crap charging at you at least some of the scary crap will stick. DP spam seems like it could be really fun too.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Don't know what to tell you, folks. Brimstones die. In numbers. They melt to morale and melee, in my experience.

You're going to be angry about the unit either way, so continuing any counter point to "ARRGHH BRIMSTONES" is just screaming into the Void.

GW has already "nerfed" them once, and will likely do it again.

I, genuinely, wish I had another troop choice. Because I'd still do just as well as I have been.

Sorry didn't want that you think i am mean about you playing brimstones. I have no problems playing against that kind of list as i said before. Only wanted to show that it's kinda frustrating for some people to play against tides of cheap models.

 Darksider wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Don't know what to tell you, folks. Brimstones die. In numbers. They melt to morale and melee, in my experience.

You're going to be angry about the unit either way, so continuing any counter point to "ARRGHH BRIMSTONES" is just screaming into the Void.

GW has already "nerfed" them once, and will likely do it again.

I, genuinely, wish I had another troop choice. Because I'd still do just as well as I have been.

Sorry didn't want that you think i am mean about you playing brimstones. I have no problems playing against that kind of list as i said before. Only wanted to show that it's kinda frustrating for some people to play against tides of cheap models.

Not bothered at all. I'm used to rvd at least providing a contrary opinion to literally everything anyone else says for the last 10+ pages, lol

I was also being genuine. I firmly believe the brimstone issue is like tau in 7th. It's a perception issue. You FEEL and Think they're worse than they are.

Again, for the nth time, I would happily use any other troop if I had them, but they're my only choice. I wish I had other choices.

smegma_crunch wrote:
I've been doing khorne + csm and haven't had too much trouble yet (haven't played competitively yet though). I run DP, crushers, slaughterers, berzerkers, herald, letters, cultists and forgefiend/maulerfied. I figure if I have enough scary crap charging at you at least some of the scary crap will stick. DP spam seems like it could be really fun too.

I made the same decision, started with mono-Khorne daemons, but quickly added Berzerkers and Warp Talons to my list. I'm using daemons for my HQ slots - at the moment trying Be'Lakor to cast warptime on my Berzerkers/Warp Talons, and a Herald on Juggernaut to buff all my bloodletters.

I found the Bloodletters summoning very effective to destroy entire units. I also deep strike Warp Talons to distract my opponent while running my Berzerkers. I just find the zerkers very slow, so I might add Rhinos to the mix and bring less Bloodletters, but at that point it's becoming more a CSM than a daemon army...

Bloodcrushers are also great, hitting hard, but slow and expensive.

My strategy entirely relies on running as fast as possible, distract my opponent from shooting my slow units, and hope that I can reach close combat turn 2 with enough units to make the difference. I'll try my Bloodthirster soon to see how he's doing.

I ran my bloodthirster a few times and I felt for non competitive games he's great, but with the current meta you can't really play him in a good list.

Let me explain :

Khorne army is gonna get shot to hell everytime. To mitigate this, you need to have your opponent wasting things like Las cannons on your low points units who hopefully can make some saves. As soon as you bring 1 10+ wound model, your opponent now can easily decide to pump all they're high powered long range shooting into him. Yes, they might not kill him, but putting wounds on big targets is what these weapons excel at. to put it in perspective, you allow the opponents 8 Las cannons / dark lances / whatever to kill a 340pt chunk of your army, instead of 56 points of bloodletters.

I've had this too if I try to run helldrakes and thirsters with demons. bringing those big targetable units actually solved problems for the enemy. If you follow all the brim hate, it's centred around denying your opponent good shooting targets.

Seriously though, try to get a friendly game and bring the insensate rage dude. Putting 30+ wounds on a knight in the fight phase is something every khorne player needs to experience one time.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Darksider wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Don't know what to tell you, folks. Brimstones die. In numbers. They melt to morale and melee, in my experience.

You're going to be angry about the unit either way, so continuing any counter point to "ARRGHH BRIMSTONES" is just screaming into the Void.

GW has already "nerfed" them once, and will likely do it again.

I, genuinely, wish I had another troop choice. Because I'd still do just as well as I have been.

Sorry didn't want that you think i am mean about you playing brimstones. I have no problems playing against that kind of list as i said before. Only wanted to show that it's kinda frustrating for some people to play against tides of cheap models.

Not bothered at all. I'm used to rvd at least providing a contrary opinion to literally everything anyone else says for the last 10+ pages, lol

I was also being genuine. I firmly believe the brimstone issue is like tau in 7th. It's a perception issue. You FEEL and Think they're worse than they are.

Again, for the nth time, I would happily use any other troop if I had them, but they're my only choice. I wish I had other choices.

As support, I crushed a brimstone spam+daemon princes list the other day through sheer force of morale losses after a Containment Breach result. Brimstones are definitely not as bad as Conscripts, that's for sure.

Well at least the Chaos Daemon codex is predicted to be the biggest boost to an army yet by one of the testers.

The easiest thing to guess is 1/2 CP for deepstrike. Now imagine all those squishy slow but harditting deamons. Oh wait, they're on the opponents face turn one. Suddenly almost every problem CD had is gone because of how powerful a unit of 30 bloodletters/daemonettes or (if allowed) bloodthirster, skarbrand can be if they start 9'' from your opponent.