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Khorne needs the deep strike back more than anyone. It's bad.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Khorne needs the deep strike back more than anyone. It's bad.

Agree. I like the idea of mixing Daemons and CSM but it is a shame that people can't play a competitive mono-khorne list. Actually, on last Frontline Gaming podcast the winner of BOA said that Daemons are probably the worst army on 8th - excluding brimstone's spam.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The smite change is largely inconsequential, it doesn't matter.

Are you asking if my opponents are having fun shooting at horrors because every other model in my army is a character? Because that has nothing to do with horrors, it has everything to do with characters.

I enjoy my army greatly, and my opponents certainly get frustrated, but they're not frustrated with BRIMSTONES, they're frustrated that I don't present a single viable target for their shooting. Because there isn't one. Ever model is sub 100pts and they gain no immediate benefit trying to kill one over the other.

yes the frustration may largely result from you playing a skew and one which is perhaps less readily countered than other skews in 8th but the 2 point Brimstones are rather good as are the exalted flamers. Lets ignore those and focus on the one thing which really puts the other Gods in Tzeentch's shadow imo which is the changeling, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Khorne have nothing of comparable buffing power and it seems a little over the top.

Ix_Tab wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The smite change is largely inconsequential, it doesn't matter.

Are you asking if my opponents are having fun shooting at horrors because every other model in my army is a character? Because that has nothing to do with horrors, it has everything to do with characters.

I enjoy my army greatly, and my opponents certainly get frustrated, but they're not frustrated with BRIMSTONES, they're frustrated that I don't present a single viable target for their shooting. Because there isn't one. Ever model is sub 100pts and they gain no immediate benefit trying to kill one over the other.

yes the frustration may largely result from you playing a skew and one which is perhaps less readily countered than other skews in 8th but the 2 point Brimstones are rather good as are the exalted flamers. Lets ignore those and focus on the one thing which really puts the other Gods in Tzeentch's shadow imo which is the changeling, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Khorne have nothing of comparable buffing power and it seems a little over the top.

Slaanesh has the masque who is fictionally the same just with a smaller range 6 vs 9 and only hits daemonettes the big problem is everything except daemon prince, Keeper of secrets and Fiends should have the daemonette keyword but only seeker chariots, the masque herself and daemonettes have the keyword.

Except the Masque only does -1 in the fight phase...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Except the Masque only does -1 in the fight phase...

I can't believe I missed that, well that is my bad.

So a couple of days later, what's the general opinion, did the point nerf on Brims fix the problem with them?

And does the point buff on the other bread and butter daemons (blodletters, pinks, bearers & daemonettes) make them more viable?

I'll talk about Letters and Nettes:
I'll compare them to genestealers - an extremelly good unit that is very similar in stats, weapons, saves to our daemons:
So they have 0.11 damage per point. That is the golden standard we want to get.
Letters right now are actually 0.14. Daemonettes are 0.1
Letters are pretty gooooooood... if they get there... The things Genestealers have going for them is that they are: faster and tougher. I'd say that makes them just a little better than letters. However if you summon (I KNOW) letters, the mobility advantage disappears. Which is what I think the next cool thing to do will be. Shove some malefic lords/khorne herald/skulltaker into a group of tough/numerous units move turn 1 if you go first and summon turn 2 or just summon turn 1 if your opponent starts rushing you.
Daemonettes are worse per damage, slower and less tough. The only thing they have going for the is the slaanesh ability... And that is actually deceptivelly good. It's really hard to correctly evaluate that ability without playing quite a few games against melee heavy enemies. it's like "hah, I charge all the time so I got first anyway", however don't forget that combat almost never ends the same turn. During the next turns you have a HUGE advantage of always going first.
Plaguebearers were apparently good enough to be top 20 in BAO. So making them cheaper is just icing on the cake

After breaking out 3 Giant Spawn over the weekend, and them outperforming my wildest dreams, I'm strongly considering upping the amount of them I use in my lists.

From 3 to 6. Anyone else fiddle with using more than 2-3 of them?

Six of them running with The Changeling and a Daemon Prince, with Exalted flamers hiding amongst them feels like one angry attack blob.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well at least the Chaos Daemon codex is predicted to be the biggest boost to an army yet by one of the testers.

The easiest thing to guess is 1/2 CP for deepstrike. Now imagine all those squishy slow but harditting deamons. Oh wait, they're on the opponents face turn one. Suddenly almost every problem CD had is gone because of how powerful a unit of 30 bloodletters/daemonettes or (if allowed) bloodthirster, skarbrand can be if they start 9'' from your opponent.

Its a band aid over a broken dam though. Sure, everyone will use it, but you can only do it once a turn.

Your best option there is use CSM as a distraction, while you CP in 30 letters every turn

Do any daemon vets have strategies for a Magnus-daemon bubble? So far Changeling is critical + not having him in LoS. Brim's to screen Exalted Flamers, and maybe screamers to tie up shooting units with a Herald on Chariot to accompany them and flee out of assault afterwards for more smite?

Am I on the right track?

You're close.

Don't use Screamers, and consider not using Magnus. Just use more Heralds and more Exalted Flamers, as well as 1 Daemon Prince for rerolls.

str00dles1 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well at least the Chaos Daemon codex is predicted to be the biggest boost to an army yet by one of the testers.

The easiest thing to guess is 1/2 CP for deepstrike. Now imagine all those squishy slow but harditting deamons. Oh wait, they're on the opponents face turn one. Suddenly almost every problem CD had is gone because of how powerful a unit of 30 bloodletters/daemonettes or (if allowed) bloodthirster, skarbrand can be if they start 9'' from your opponent.

Its a band aid over a broken dam though. Sure, everyone will use it, but you can only do it once a turn.

Your best option there is use CSM as a distraction, while you CP in 30 letters every turn

It's once per phase. But deep strike is pre-game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spaceclown wrote:
Do any daemon vets have strategies for a Magnus-daemon bubble? So far Changeling is critical + not having him in LoS. Brim's to screen Exalted Flamers, and maybe screamers to tie up shooting units with a Herald on Chariot to accompany them and flee out of assault afterwards for more smite?

Am I on the right track?

Screamers are bad but Magnus is used by almost every deamon team, that does well in tournaments. Put in some Malefic Lords as they're too cheap to be true. Maybe think of leaving 220-440 points as reserve summon bloodletter bombs with the Malefic Lords as you need more damage after the Horror nerfs.

Perhaps I am missing something on the calculations, but I think the differences between daemonettes and bloodletters are a bit more complicated, mostly in the impact of their respective strength and 'on a 6' abilities. If I may elaborate:

I tend to think the daemonette's '6' ability is considerably more useful than the 'letters one. Doing 2 damage will matter against fewer targets than shifting to a -4 AP, particularly when taking into account a (buffed) strength. Assuming targeting conscripts/gaunts/genestealers/boys, both abilities are functionally a wash. Targeting warriors, the rend matters much more than the 2 damage. Targeting marines, likewise, the rend is more important. On vehicles, both abilities shine, though it favors the letters ability.

I think where letters pull ahead is really exclusive to the charge and that is where the stark difference between the two demon abilities come. Most combats in 8th simply don't last long enough for the slaanesh ability to matter. If you're being charged, it is quite likely you're going to die, so the idea of long-running combats is minimal. Further, your opponent has to be charged more than two of his units into slaanesh units in order for that ability to matter at all turn one of a fight...sure it happens, but he has to have charged 4 units for it to do anything more than save you command points. An unlikely scenario. The khrone ability is so much stronger because it more than doubles the damage potential of a unit of letters against many targets. This is also sort of the reason Hysterical Frenzy ends up looking much better on paper than it is in play.

Again, I might be missing something, but why do you say that letters are faster than daemonettes? Daemonettes have the 7 inch more vs the letters 6?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You're close.

Don't use Screamers, and consider not using Magnus. Just use more Heralds and more Exalted Flamers, as well as 1 Daemon Prince for rerolls.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Screamers are bad but Magnus is used by almost every deamon team, that does well in tournaments. Put in some Malefic Lords as they're too cheap to be true. Maybe think of leaving 220-440 points as reserve summon bloodletter bombs with the Malefic Lords as you need more damage after the Horror nerfs.

Noted: no more screamers and begin to bring in more Malefic Lords and Heralds on Disc.

Thanks for the feedback!

drakerocket wrote:
Perhaps I am missing something on the calculations, but I think the differences between daemonettes and bloodletters are a bit more complicated, mostly in the impact of their respective strength and 'on a 6' abilities. If I may elaborate:

I tend to think the daemonette's '6' ability is considerably more useful than the 'letters one. Doing 2 damage will matter against fewer targets than shifting to a -4 AP, particularly when taking into account a (buffed) strength. Assuming targeting conscripts/gaunts/genestealers/boys, both abilities are functionally a wash. Targeting warriors, the rend matters much more than the 2 damage. Targeting marines, likewise, the rend is more important. On vehicles, both abilities shine, though it favors the letters ability.

I think where letters pull ahead is really exclusive to the charge and that is where the stark difference between the two demon abilities come. Most combats in 8th simply don't last long enough for the slaanesh ability to matter. If you're being charged, it is quite likely you're going to die, so the idea of long-running combats is minimal. Further, your opponent has to be charged more than two of his units into slaanesh units in order for that ability to matter at all turn one of a fight...sure it happens, but he has to have charged 4 units for it to do anything more than save you command points. An unlikely scenario. The khrone ability is so much stronger because it more than doubles the damage potential of a unit of letters against many targets. This is also sort of the reason Hysterical Frenzy ends up looking much better on paper than it is in play.

Again, I might be missing something, but why do you say that letters are faster than daemonettes? Daemonettes have the 7 inch more vs the letters 6?

Daemonettes are str 3 and ap 1, rarely 4. Bloodletters are str 4, usually 5 with ap 3, sometimes double damage. Not sure how do you think ap 1 could ever be better than ap 3, even if it goes to 4 on 6s. I didn't say Daemonettes are slower than letters, they are slower than Genestealers. I took the on 6 abilities into account when counting. The Khorne ability is almost always in effect as they should always charge or get charged. And you shouldn't discount the slaanesh ability. If 30 nettes run into 15 genestealers (happens all the time in this edition), they might stay there for a while.

Also hysterical frenzy is really bad as you can use it once every 3 games and even then it usually fails to cast... Just smite TBH

Basically where you need to pick between the two is when you summon. It's simple: Daemonettes vs very large low armor screen units, letters against most everything else

It's funny, I find nettes are 4 usually and only sometimes 3, while letters 6 usually, sometimes 5. I guess I've *very* paranoid about keeping herald support.

It's true hysterical frenzy isn't very good, that's mostly what I was trying to point out. The valley between the two is really in how much better the khrone ability is than the slaanesh one.

If this edition were one in which combats lasted many turns, I think nettes would pull ahead, more because of the 2 base attacks vs the 1 on letters when not on the charge than because of quicksilver reflexes. But so much is resolved in the first charge.

I think honestly the better formula goes nettes are better at being charged and letters are better at charging as a pretty universal theme.

drakerocket wrote:
Perhaps I am missing something on the calculations, but I think the differences between daemonettes and bloodletters are a bit more complicated, mostly in the impact of their respective strength and 'on a 6' abilities. If I may elaborate:

I tend to think the daemonette's '6' ability is considerably more useful than the 'letters one. Doing 2 damage will matter against fewer targets than shifting to a -4 AP, particularly when taking into account a (buffed) strength. Assuming targeting conscripts/gaunts/genestealers/boys, both abilities are functionally a wash. Targeting warriors, the rend matters much more than the 2 damage. Targeting marines, likewise, the rend is more important. On vehicles, both abilities shine, though it favors the letters ability.

I think where letters pull ahead is really exclusive to the charge and that is where the stark difference between the two demon abilities come. Most combats in 8th simply don't last long enough for the slaanesh ability to matter. If you're being charged, it is quite likely you're going to die, so the idea of long-running combats is minimal. Further, your opponent has to be charged more than two of his units into slaanesh units in order for that ability to matter at all turn one of a fight...sure it happens, but he has to have charged 4 units for it to do anything more than save you command points. An unlikely scenario. The khrone ability is so much stronger because it more than doubles the damage potential of a unit of letters against many targets. This is also sort of the reason Hysterical Frenzy ends up looking much better on paper than it is in play.

Again, I might be missing something, but why do you say that letters are faster than daemonettes? Daemonettes have the 7 inch more vs the letters 6?

The 'letters always have a -3 AP. Going to a -4 is not that much better. I would rather go with the 2 wound per hit.

Like you mentioned, 'letters get a LOT better when they are charging. 20 letters charging a knight do the following.
40 attacks * (7/9 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 1 wound + 4.320987654
40 attacks * (7/9 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 2 wounds = 8.641975309
That's a total of 12.96 wounds to a knight!

In comparison 20 'nettes only do 6.677 wounds to the knight.
60 attacks * (2/3 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (auto failed save) * 1 wound

What makes the 'letters good now is that they are only 150 points for those 20 'letters.
Sure, they are a glass cannon, but they hit like a wrecking ball. I'm going to play around with summoning them in and see what they do.

According to NOVA and ITC No daemons have a Faction, so we gain no benefit from any of the new Chapter Approved objective secured changes.

Apparently <Chaos> and <Allegiance> do not count as a faction.

So Khorne/Tzeentch/Slaanesh/Nurgle Daemon is not a Faction, like Death Guard or Ultramarines

What is the point of having separate Faction Keywords if they do not count as Faction

Oh, no, <Ultramarines> and <Death Guard> are a faction.

They're claiming very specifically that <Khorne> etc do NOT count as factions.

The reason is that there are many units that have Khorne as a keyword, and deeper keywords -- like World Eaters.

If Khorne were a faction, then a possessed of Khorne would have both Khorne as a faction and world eaters as a faction. In fact, they would have Khorne and Daemon as well, allowing you to run them in your daemonkin army.

Personally, I disagree with that reasoning, but that's just me.

Yeah. Knight is admittedly a pretty perfect target for letters. The difference will be smaller on one-wound models to be sure, much smaller on low armor one wound models models. But letters do probably have the advantage because the khorne special rule is so much stronger than the slaanesh one when most fights don't go past the first charge.

Which is sad for nettes, as I adore them far more than letters. But even though they are the worse choice, I think at 7 a model both are actually probably pretty strong now. Running blobs of 20 is pretty unrealistic due to morale, but 70 points for 10 can give some very solid value.

Yep.

Whatever the reasoning, as it stands, us and KROOT are basically the only army factions that receive no true faction and have no injective secured.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yep.

Whatever the reasoning, as it stands, us and KROOT are basically the only army factions that receive no true faction and have no injective secured.

Well, and both Imperial & Renegade Knights (& by extension Dark Mech) if ITC is being somewhat consistent.
Ignore me, still tired and forgot none of those factions have troops lol.

How are fiends of Slaanesh doing?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
After breaking out 3 Giant Spawn over the weekend, and them outperforming my wildest dreams, I'm strongly considering upping the amount of them I use in my lists.

From 3 to 6. Anyone else fiddle with using more than 2-3 of them?

Six of them running with The Changeling and a Daemon Prince, with Exalted flamers hiding amongst them feels like one angry attack blob.

I've been using three and toying with the idea of more with how amazing they are. Out of curiosity what model you using for giant spawn?

Mutaliths.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Oh, no, <Ultramarines> and <Death Guard> are a faction.

They're claiming very specifically that <Khorne> etc do NOT count as factions.

How are Chaos Daemons, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch not a faction ? We even had a solo codex for the previous 4 editions I'm confused :/

Trust me, I absolutely agree with you.

Push GW for clarification tomorrow, because currently ITC and NOVA are saying we don't exist.