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So, my attempt to make a list is here:

Army Point Limit: 1850

SUPREME COMMAND DETACHMENT I +1CP
4x Malefic Lords -- 120pt.

SUPREME COMMAND DETACHMENT II +1CP
3x Heralds of Tzeentch on disc (Staff of Change, Bolt of Change, Treason of Change) -- 312pt.

BATTALION DETACHMENT +3CP

HQ
1x Kairos Fateweaver (All Tzeentch psychich powers) -- 400pt. +D3CP
1x The Changeling (Boon of Change) -- 100pt.

Troops
2x Horrors -- 5 Blues, 5 Brimstone (5 brimstone Split), no Icon, no Instrument -- 110pt.
2x Bloodletters -- Icon, Instrument -- 210pt.
2x Plaguebearers -- Icon, Instrument -- 210pt.

Elites
1x 6 Flamers of Tzeentch -- 168pt.

Fast Attack
2x Seekers -- Icon, Instrument -- 260pt.

1830/1850 pt.

Feel free to comment on this

2k points is the norm for 8th Edition.

Flamers are dangerous and are just sitting ducks to give your opponent first blood.

Kairos is garbage. For an extra 15pts you can have Magnus.

Icon and instruments are lnt really with it. They're absurdly expensive.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
2k points is the norm for 8th Edition.

Flamers are dangerous and are just sitting ducks to give your opponent first blood.

Kairos is garbage. For an extra 15pts you can have Magnus.

Icon and instruments are lnt really with it. They're absurdly expensive.

Okay, i didnt know 2000 pts. is the norm, good to hear!

Its too bad Fateweaver is Garbage, i really like him. Fluffwise and also the model. But yes Magnus in camparison is defenitly more powerful.
Okay, so no Flamers...i will try them anyway, if its 2000pts., i still have enough left.
No icon or instrument at all? I mean an Instrument could be crucial for attempting various charges after summoning. Icon okay, i thought of scratching that too.

What would be another good addition? Add a Daemon Prince? Or add some Obliterators to combo with magnus?

Is 2000pts, official tournament value?

I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

Gladders1980 wrote:
I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

Tomorrow i will make a test game because i dont have all the models yet.
I will think about your idea. Have to calculate it, thank you!

Gladders1980 wrote:
I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

I have looked at the same idea a few times. Pink Horrors represent only 1/5 of the actual models in the unit (if you split all the way down). The auto-morale stratagem is the real clincher. Taking a look at survivability-per-point, the squad averages out to still be better than a Plaguebearer (in squads less than 20) on average. That's mostly because Brimstones are still point-for-point the most survivable thing in the game, which tilts the average up quite a bit.

However, I had not considered the possibility of using those saved points for summoning if the Pinks aren't getting targeted- tricky stuff there!

So, while we're on the subject of summoning, what are some great summoning options that will be worth picking up for any Daemons army this edition? Right off the bat, I think we'll all agree the standout is a squad of 20 Bloodletters, with an instrument. For 150 points, this unit has a 2/3 chance of just absolutely mauling whatever is in its path in the ensuing combat step. Averaging in the 1/3 chance of failure as 0 wounds dealt, the unit still does more damage per point than anything I've come across so far (to a T7, 3+ unit, in this example):

 magodedisco wrote:

Gladders1980 wrote:
I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

I have looked at the same idea a few times. Pink Horrors represent only 1/5 of the actual models in the unit (if you split all the way down). The auto-morale stratagem is the real clincher. Taking a look at survivability-per-point, the squad averages out to still be better than a Plaguebearer (in squads less than 20) on average. That's mostly because Brimstones are still point-for-point the most survivable thing in the game, which tilts the average up quite a bit.

However, I had not considered the possibility of using those saved points for summoning if the Pinks aren't getting targeted- tricky stuff there!

So, while we're on the subject of summoning, what are some great summoning options that will be worth picking up for any Daemons army this edition? Right off the bat, I think we'll all agree the standout is a squad of 20 Bloodletters, with an instrument. For 150 points, this unit has a 2/3 chance of just absolutely mauling whatever is in its path in the ensuing combat step. Averaging in the 1/3 chance of failure as 0 wounds dealt, the unit still does more damage per point than anything I've come across so far (to a T7, 3+ unit, in this example):

A Slaanesh daemon prince is mathematically almost as good as Magnus ? (Is this the intoxicating elixer prince)

A Slaanesh daemon prince is mathematically almost as good as Magnus ? (Is this the intoxicating elixer prince)

I should have explained further when posting that- it actually looks like that entry is an Intoxicating Elixir Slaanesh DP also casting Smite (I leave notes that make sense at one point then forget to erase). The whole sheet is on a per-point basis. So, yes, it does appear that that build is on-par with Magnus on a point-per-damage basis against T7/3+. However, that doesn't account for overkilling something that doesn't have enough wounds. Magnus deals a whopping 23.215 wounds, between smite, another offensive spell, and his attacks, which very few units can withstand without some damage being wasted.

My main point was that Bloodletters are insanely lethal for their points now.

 magodedisco wrote:

A Slaanesh daemon prince is mathematically almost as good as Magnus ? (Is this the intoxicating elixer prince)

I should have explained further when posting that- it actually looks like that entry is an Intoxicating Elixir Slaanesh DP also casting Smite (I leave notes that make sense at one point then forget to erase). The whole sheet is on a per-point basis. So, yes, it does appear that that build is on-par with Magnus on a point-per-damage basis against T7/3+. However, that doesn't account for overkilling something that doesn't have enough wounds. Magnus deals a whopping 23.215 wounds, between smite, another offensive spell, and his attacks, which very few units can withstand without some damage being wasted.

My main point was that Bloodletters are insanely lethal for their points now.

That is good to know it is nice to have the second best daemon prince after Magnus surprised the slaanesh prince is superior to belakor

How good are daemonettes I assume they are inferior to genestealers (asking since self imposed restriction prevent me using bloodletters)

How good are daemonettes I assume they are inferior to genestealers (asking since self imposed restriction prevent me using bloodletters)

VS Ork:

image cdn free

Vs Rhino:

image cdn free

I wouldn't be too dismayed by the Daemonettes/Genestealers lack of damage compared to the Bloodletters. Compared to a wide variety of units I've checked out, the newly-pointed 'Letters are just off the charts. The Daemonettes/Genestealers also have some advantages you can't put points on- faster movement, charge after running, always strike first, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit- Also important to bear in mind how much less survival the Genestealers are for their points- over double for only 1 extra point of toughness!

Genestealers seem really bad compared to even Daemonettes let alone Bloodletters, on the cost to damage ratio, are you including a herald in those calculations ?

I've been strongly considering adding a small contingent of Alpha Legion, in a spearhead, with a generic, cheap HQ and 3 Obliterator squads for kicks.

As they're both alpha legion and Tzeentch Daemons, they'd have -2 to be hit when near the changeling.

It's pretty janky but sounds hilarious

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I've been strongly considering adding a small contingent of Alpha Legion, in a spearhead, with a generic, cheap HQ and 3 Obliterator squads for kicks.

As they're both alpha legion and Tzeentch Daemons, they'd have -2 to be hit when near the changeling.

It's pretty janky but sounds hilarious

Point-for-point their damage is now fantastic, particularly if you can keep them near a to-hit buff/reroll of some sort (any Tzeentch Daemon Prince or Be'Lakor is ideal). They're also very survivable with the Changeling buff and you're guaranteed to shoot with them first due to deep strike. All in all, I'd say it's far from janky.

 magodedisco wrote:

Gladders1980 wrote:
I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

I have looked at the same idea a few times. Pink Horrors represent only 1/5 of the actual models in the unit (if you split all the way down). The auto-morale stratagem is the real clincher. Taking a look at survivability-per-point, the squad averages out to still be better than a Plaguebearer (in squads less than 20) on average. That's mostly because Brimstones are still point-for-point the most survivable thing in the game, which tilts the average up quite a bit.

However, I had not considered the possibility of using those saved points for summoning if the Pinks aren't getting targeted- tricky stuff there!

So, while we're on the subject of summoning, what are some great summoning options that will be worth picking up for any Daemons army this edition? Right off the bat, I think we'll all agree the standout is a squad of 20 Bloodletters, with an instrument. For 150 points, this unit has a 2/3 chance of just absolutely mauling whatever is in its path in the ensuing combat step. Averaging in the 1/3 chance of failure as 0 wounds dealt, the unit still does more damage per point than anything I've come across so far (to a T7, 3+ unit, in this example):

Yeah, bloodletters are pretty good. I'm making a summoning mathammer thing so I ca- wait what. Why in the green hell did I think 20 letters were 220 pts? So I just won a game where I could summon 20 more bloodletters ._. Sick :p

Yeah, bloodletters are cheap and good now. I am considering reserving 150 points worth just for the option of summoning them in turn 2 for a 20 blood letter charge. That would murder lots of stuff in CC as long as they make the charge.

Yeah, 300 points of reserves can go a long way. Pretty much 2 squads of 20 man letters with instruments or 3 exalted flamers and some brims is the way to go depending on opponent.

Yeah, bloodletters are the best unit against any target. Craps on bloodthirster when fighting Knights. :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's also something to be said about Pinks and Ex. Flamers/Burning Chariots as they can shoot after summoning

Going for Summoning I see how Pink Horrors work well as additional option
But I still think this is too expensive to use more of them if you need to fill slots

a unit of 20 with enough points to fully split 10 pink cost the same like 6 units of 5 Blues + 5 Brimstone with points to split the Blues

You don't need to fully split though...

of course you don't need but if you don't intended to fully split, there is also no need for 20 pink as 10 pink+10 blue does the same job for less points
So if you not enough spare points for splitting anyway there is no reason to take a whole units of pinks

 magodedisco wrote:

How good are daemonettes I assume they are inferior to genestealers (asking since self imposed restriction prevent me using bloodletters)

VS Ork:

image cdn free

Vs Rhino:

image cdn free

I wouldn't be too dismayed by the Daemonettes/Genestealers lack of damage compared to the Bloodletters. Compared to a wide variety of units I've checked out, the newly-pointed 'Letters are just off the charts. The Daemonettes/Genestealers also have some advantages you can't put points on- faster movement, charge after running, always strike first, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit- Also important to bear in mind how much less survival the Genestealers are for their points- over double for only 1 extra point of toughness!

Okay, Bloodletters is a must have. How many Bloodletter you think i should get @2000pts? 1x 20 letters squad or more?
But where did you get this chart? Did you make it on your own? What exactly does it show - dmg per point cost?
How many times can you summon by the way with one chraracter? 1x time per character and movement phase?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I've been strongly considering adding a small contingent of Alpha Legion, in a spearhead, with a generic, cheap HQ and 3 Obliterator squads for kicks.

As they're both alpha legion and Tzeentch Daemons, they'd have -2 to be hit when near the changeling.

It's pretty janky but sounds hilarious

Wow, i have to look that up. What ability for the Alpha Legion is it?
I thought about putting in Oblits. too, since they got buffed and i also already own 3x.
3X Oblits squads is a good dmg output, very good. Nice Idea!

Are Seekers worth playing?

Oblits get the - 1 to hit from the Changeling as well as the - 1 to hit from the Alpha Legion trait. I see a great value on them for any DAEMON or CSM army.

Yeah. They're pretty solid.

I'm a tzeentch player. I don't like new rules for brimstone horrors. How can i replace them? Do you think they are still a good unit?
Thanks

Of course they're still good. The rules changes nothing. They're likely closer to a more appropriate point cost. 3ppm is still very worth paying.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Of course they're still good. The rules changes nothing. They're likely closer to a more appropriate point cost. 3ppm is still very worth paying.

But now they deal only 1 mortal wound for smite, right?

So? Now you just don't bother smiting. It was only going off on a 5/6 before anyway.

Means you save some points because you don't need to add a blue any longer.

They are still a shield for other unit, sure.

That's all they need to be, exactly.

casdark wrote:
They are still a shield for other unit, sure.

That's all they are supposed to be.

No ranged attack.
CC attacks that will rarely ever do a wound to something with them having 1 strength.
Smite is unreliable with a 1/3rd chance of it being casted. I just had a game the other week where I successfully casted 2 smites out of about 15 attempts with them. It's really just a bonus if they manage to cast it.

But 3 points for a unit with a 4++ save is amazing. They are very durable. Takes either mortal wounds or high volume of attacks(or poor save rolls) to take them out.