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 Cephalobeard wrote:
Scabby gives a -1 to hit aura to Daemons of nurgle when you make it into Melee.

I had a recent game with this. I think my list was something like..

Scabbie
30 PB full upgrade
3 nurgle giant spawn
5 malefic lords
3x3 nurglings
3 earthshakers
4 quad launchers

Faced DA+knight.

30PB were -2 to hit in CC, they ran face first into 5 of those mace/shield and 5 powerfist/SB TDA with a chapter master and banner dude backing them up. Dude was only hitting on 6s thanks to the unwieldy rule with PB+scabbie. He rolled a lot of 6s, but PB wore them down, and scabbie cleaned them up. Malefic lords helped quite a lot against those storm shields though. Giant spawn are better than they were in 7th by a large margin, I'm surprised FW didn't give them a point increase. Had 1 die turn 2 to heavy shooting, the other 2 lasted the entire game, chewing up marine squads like it was no ones business. Quad mortars were wasted this game, as everything but the knight was either in CC or out of range. Earthshakers were hit or miss, but when they worked, they did real work.


Has anyone had a chance to try summoning scabbie? Against a gunline army, I feel like getting a malefic lord to summon him would be better than plopping him on the table.

Giant Spawn are good for their cost, but not absurd. As single models they easily give up KPs, easily give up a HS slot for some victory conditions, and only move 3+d3 movement after taking a single wound.

They won't dominate a game, they'll just refuse to die.

To summon scabby, you need to roll rather well and unlike the 3 die roll for normal summoning, the 9 die roll doesn't get impacted as much by the Re-roll a die strategem so it's pretty much a straight up 50/50. Also almost every time the Malefic Lord will die


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you want him on the table if you run plaguebearers for the morale aura

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

Sure does. Everything.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

Sure does. Everything.

I feel it's a point that's rarely mentioned when I see mathcrafters compare the two gifts.

Question for anyone that has Imperial Armor Index Forces of Chaos.

Are Plague Toads or Pox Riders any good? I want to give my Nurgle force some more variety in units, but I don't have the Imperial Armor book yet, and can't find any info on those two units at all in 8th edition.

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

Sure does. Everything.

I feel it's a point that's rarely mentioned when I see mathcrafters compare the two gifts.

Mathhammer only goes so far. Never use only that as a baseline.

Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

Where are you seeing the NOVA updates? I didn't think BCP were sponsoring it?

Sneggy wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

Where are you seeing the NOVA updates? I didn't think BCP were sponsoring it?

http://challonge.com/NOVAInvitational
https://mismatchedplay.com/2017/08/31/nova-invitational-lists/

I played my second game with daemons last night.
Back in 7th I was running both slaanesh formations with a seekerstar at the front of it.
In 8th I’ve mostly been playing Tyranids so broke my Slaanesh out for a bit of fun.

My list was:
2x daemon prince-slaanesh, talons.
2x heralds on steed
1x herald on seeker chariot
The masque

2x 24 daemonettes with instrument
13 brims and 2 blues

15 seekers with instrument
5 seekers with instrument
5 seekers with instrument

Exalted seeker chariot
Exalted flamer
5x 1 fiends

His list (from memory):
3x2 hornets with pulse lasers
4x3 scatter laser bikes
Warlock on bike
Farseer on bike
2 crimson hunter (exarchs?)


We were playing maelstrom, missions where cards=turn number.

He got first turn and obliterated all but 1 seeker. She passed morale, didn’t help she died on overwatch next turn anyway.
I ran up the board, used smite and a daemon prince charge to get both his crimson hunters down to their bottom tier. Huge whiff from my daemon prince only doing 1 wound.

He gradually killed screens and picked up characters. I spent all game failing invuls and whiffing with my exalted flamer.
Eventually managed to get him cornered and my remaining heralds and daemon prince cleaned up most of the army.
Game ended 19-18 to me on points on Turn 6. I’d have won by more on turn 5 or 7 (potentially tabling him on 7)

I found him flying out of combat and shooting me incredibly frustrating, the damonettes in particular were really struggling to do enough damage to make a difference.
Masque was largely irrelevant but that’s because her negative to hit daemonettes was pointless against a foe who posed zero combat threat. Can see her value vs punchier armies.
Really wasn’t impressed with the exalted flamer, probably need to be running more of them.
I took the fiends purely because I didn’t have more flamer models and actually found them pretty useful, more than 1 psychic power was denied/failed due to their aura. They did some decent damage in combat too. That’s vs a foe who I couldn’t actually hold in combat as his whole army had fly.
I think I’ll persevere with the fiends for a while, they are obviously not stellar but a couple might be handy.
Other big problem I had was Morale, I burnt 6 command points keeping units from being decimated by it. Considering bringing my keeper of secrets out of retirement to help.

All in all a very enjoyable game and both me and my opponent learnt a lot from it. Definitely looking forward to more with my daemons in 8th.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Sneggy wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

Where are you seeing the NOVA updates? I didn't think BCP were sponsoring it?

http://challonge.com/NOVAInvitational
https://mismatchedplay.com/2017/08/31/nova-invitational-lists/

Thanks man, some of those are just ridiculous. I'm a bit dissapointed tbh. the netlist is running the show, usually theres a player or two with something a bit off the wall hanging in there too.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

Brimstones aren't even the issue in any of these armies. They're just all "soup" abominations taking things from everywhere.

Malefic lords are absolute an issue, sure, but the Brimstones are nowhere near the abusive unit.

Well Reece is of a different opinion and 9 times out of 10 what he says - goes, sooner or later. So RIP Brimstones.

Reece is a human and is capable of both bias and being wrong. These lists have very minimum additions of less than 40 Horrors, they are not the abuse in the armies.

Oh god Brimstones better not go above 4pt. There is no way 10 Brims are more powerful than 10 Guardsmen. 4 pts I can understand to an extent, but 5+ would be way too high.

Plus we really need buffs to Blues and Pinks rather than making Horrors as a whole worse.

Oh, don't worry, if brimstone get hit with the nerfbat, I assume conscripts will get hit by the nerftruck


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Reece is a human and is capable of both bias and being wrong. These lists have very minimum additions of less than 40 Horrors, they are not the abuse in the armies.

I'm just saying. Brimstones getting nerfed when the main tester keeps saying they are still way too good AND when the top 8 are all 2 factions, 1 of which has them in every list is a foregone conclusion

I'm not even talking about conscipts, I'm talking about full-blown proper Guardsmen.

Brims have no shooting attack, are worse in Melee and lack the superior Ld buffing options of the Guard to instead be tankier out of cover and against rending weapons and a unreliable, 1MW psychic attack that kills one of them.

4pts for a Brim? Ok yeah I can see that being somewhat fair, but any more than that would be too far, and would definitely result in Blue Horrors becoming even worse and splitting might as being an option that is even more dead than now.

And no offense to Reece, but the man complains incessantly about certain units but holds no qualms with himself using things like Lias Issodon gaining 3 free drop pods, etc.

He's just a guy. He doesn't even work FOR GW. He has a bias, he clearly doesn't like Daemons right now. I would imagine most of all of us agree we're not in LOVE with Daemons either, but we need our other units IMPROVED instead of just nerfing one of them into the ground over and over again.

There's only 70 Fething Brimstones between those top tables, you couldn't even sing me a song about how they're supposedly carrying any of those people.

Oh I'm definitely not in love with Daemons at the moments, but (like the rest of us here I'm sure) it's in a different way to Reece.

Tbh despite liking the base rules of 8th a lot the transition for Daemons has left me wanting because it feels like a heavily stripped down army to the one I started 6+ish years ago, and not in a good way. (As has the mishandling of Word Bearers yet again but that's an entirely different topic).


And yeah, don't see how 70 troop models among the 2 top lists indicated there's a problem - that's the bare minimum number of troops. The Malefic Lords from the first list are 110% more of an issue (ie the actual issue).

Brimstones are a problem

But for a different reason, cheap Troops with a equal deff than expensive units are the main problem of 8th.

Conscripts have the same deff than normal Soldiers or Veterans, so why take something else if you just need something to suck up damage and protect your Chars.

Changing the point costs of those units changes nothing
Making Blue 6 and Brimstone 5 would not save the problem

Changing the save and keep the points would be a thing

I'm in the camp that brimmies are not a problem and fine just with they way they are post-FAQ.

Played 5 games in a GT last weekend, and other than camping objectives and providing screens for my characters... they really didn't do anything. I'd say they're costed appropriately now.

Now the Maelific Lord spams? Which I *do* have... does need to be adjusted a bit.

I'm really tired of seeing Celestine in almost every Imperium list.

Brimstones are fine, lords are not, mind you I run 8 lords cause I like to win. It's impossible to deny they are far too cheap.

Ecdain wrote:
Brimstones are fine, lords are not, mind you I run 8 lords cause I like to win. It's impossible to deny they are far too cheap.

I used to run 11. I now run 5. Either too cheap, or have too good of a save. If they had 3 wounds and could kill themselves off of a peril, that would also be good for balancing them.

I think bumping up the cost is the best solution, the idea of the model is fine it just needs to cost appropriately.

Arachnofiend wrote:
I think bumping up the cost is the best solution, the idea of the model is fine it just needs to cost appropriately.

I could see them being 45-50 pts and still being effective for their purpose

From a CSM perspective and a daemons perspective, Lords might be a bit much. However, if your chief drive is being a renegades and heretics player, them and mauraders are really all you have going for you to not just be a deeply inferior version of AM. If they are nerfed, particularly in a significant way, one of the only decent things about that army goes away. If you raise the cost to 50 points, you're not very far off (16) a herald of slaanesh at that point: a unit which can actually fight, has a potentially usable psychic power that isn't smite and an important area buff, all of which are easily worth 16 points. But no one is exactly scrambling to tack on heralds of slaanesh to their army in droves. A substantial points increase would invalidate one of the only valuable elements of R&H.

I dont understand why Brimstones are a problem, as they are now.
They cannot shoot, theyre not good in CC either. They are supposed to shield and to die.
And they die, to moral, insanely fast.

I feel more like that people are getting annoyed of them cause they shield all the precious units.
But thats not a Brimstone problem, this is a basic rules thing.
Maybe some might also think 4++ is too good, but cmon....

And smite? Pfffff, people should stop using this as an argument.

They're really not a problem, just for some reason people that don't know better LOVE to gripe about them. Conscripts are still significantly better, for only one point more. Malefic Lords should cost more than they currently do, they're kind of in the same boat as Guilliman and Celestine in their ubiquity.

At worst, the only additional tweak I could see being made to Brimstones would be knocking them down to Toughness 2.