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RIP tzeentch. -1 for every smite power test in a turn

GL casting smite on that 1D6 after you tried to cast 2 smite, btw

It's not a big deal. Smiting with horrors is mostly useless anyway.

Well now you will never smite with them. It's only a 1 in 3 and failing that means you just make every other smite worse.
It's just bad design.

It's more of an issue for GK than Daemons. The changes are, for the most part, totally fine for Daemons.

What changes?

Edit:
ok after some googling I figured it out - but where do you get your news from? I have warhammer community and some other sites in my favorites but everyone always seems to reference some blogpost or podcast which I can never find reference to. What are the best sites to get these updates?

If it was only when dealing with full smite I would be OK with it. Weaker smites need to be left alone. Who is really afraid of 1 damage Grey knight and destructor smites? Or horror smites? No one. It's the d3/d6 ones that are the issue, even that's arguable as well.

Poor brimmys, gw is giving them coal for Christmas, which for them maybe is a good thing?

Poor brimmys, gw is giving them coal for Christmas, which for them maybe is a good thing?

think about who bought 150 of them

 blackmage wrote:

Poor brimmys, gw is giving them coal for Christmas, which for them maybe is a good thing?

think about who bought 150 of them

I own 100 and will definitely still play them, the smite nerf is very minimal for their purpose, super cheap 4++ bodies. Smite was just a bonus.

Cease this frit mewling. It’s a beta rule that both sides must consent to using, and the Codex is coming very soon.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Cease this frit mewling. It’s a beta rule that both sides must consent to using, and the Codex is coming very soon.

soon it will be official and will not need agreement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ecdain wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

Poor brimmys, gw is giving them coal for Christmas, which for them maybe is a good thing?

think about who bought 150 of them

I own 100 and will definitely still play them, the smite nerf is very minimal for their purpose, super cheap 4++ bodies. Smite was just a bonus.

hope they will not change their rules/cost in next codex

 blackmage wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Cease this frit mewling. It’s a beta rule that both sides must consent to using, and the Codex is coming very soon.

soon it will be official and will not need agreement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ecdain wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

Poor brimmys, gw is giving them coal for Christmas, which for them maybe is a good thing?

think about who bought 150 of them

I own 100 and will definitely still play them, the smite nerf is very minimal for their purpose, super cheap 4++ bodies. Smite was just a bonus.

hope they will not change their rules/cost in next codex

I honestly don't think they will really touch brimstone horrors other than to consolidate all their errata into one profile. It's the one unit I don't fear for just cause it's already been tweaked so much already.

If you're expecting any one model to get nerfed in the codex, bank on it being the Changeling. The tyranid equivalent already got bumped up to 140 points.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Cease this frit mewling. It’s a beta rule that both sides must consent to using, and the Codex is coming very soon.

This rule will be used in probably the biggest 40k tournament ever - Las Vegas Open. If that doesn't make it official - tell me what does.

I just hope the (potential) changes to smite are considered in the design of the new codex and at the very least Tzeetch gets 2-3 solid offensive powers.

I don't think it effects Brimmies much, as they are a chaff unit (probably the best in 40k right now), but makes blue/pink horrors even worse and makes a mono-tzeetch demon list virtually unplayable- the only even mildly competitive build with just spam Brimmies and exalted flamers (yawn).

The codex has been long done before these rules were considered probably. So mono-tzeentch will most likelly be unplayable apart from spamming Eflamers(who will probably get changed too)

 knas wrote:
I saw Blue scribes being mentioned recently, a unit I had disregarded completely myself.

Is the biggest issue getting it inside the 12inch range of the Aura or the fact that since it can't smite a herald is just a better option?

I figure the -1 could be quite useful against a target like the Eldar, potentially losing their Doom spell on a bad roll.

Secondly I'm a bit confused by the wording on it's second ability:
When manifesting a random Tzeentch spell, does this count against the max 1 casting of every spell per turn limit?

The answer is maybe. The Psychic Focus rule says "Each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn", and Xirat'p's Sorcerous Barrage says that that you manifest a power. A curious property of Sorcerous Barrage is that there is no requirement to use it at the start of the psychic phase. This means you could conceivably cast all Tzeentch powers, then use Sorcerous Barrage to cast one of them a second time bypassing any Psychic Focus restrictions. I personally play it that Sorcerous Barrage occurs at the start of the psychic phase to avoid any issues / arguments.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Cease this frit mewling. It’s a beta rule that both sides must consent to using, and the Codex is coming very soon.

Yeah, hate to break it to you, bud. The word beta barely means anything here. If the FLG guys have had their cocky hands in the pot, you can guarantee it will become standard purely through virtue of them having been involved.

Whether your local events adopt them, however, is another matter.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Cease this frit mewling. It’s a beta rule that both sides must consent to using, and the Codex is coming very soon.

Yeah, hate to break it to you, bud. The word beta barely means anything here. If the FLG guys have had their cocky hands in the pot, you can guarantee it will become standard purely through virtue of them having been involved.

Whether your local events adopt them, however, is another matter.

I'm not too upset by the change, the vast majority of daemon players, even the topics in this thread, focus on tzeentch and smite heavy lists. Following the change and a codex maybe we'll see more diversity again.

Anyone who picked up an Index, that GW made very clear was a temporary get-you-by thing to be replaced by a Codex pretty soon, and which GW also made pretty clear would be rebalanced as they engaged with the community, and from that starting point purchased loads and loads of stuff that seemed undercosted for what it did there and then, was setting themselves up for disappointment.

I’ve got a whole bunch of Tzeentch Daemons stuff, and I’m optimistic on them getting what Pyrovores got - a bit of tweaking here and there to make things viable. I don’t need my Screamers to be pooping melta bombs on land raiders again, just something sensible like the adjustments to Tyrannofex and Dakkafex.

Main thing I want to see is Horrors that play well with Power Level based Matched Play.

And the main thing I’m crossing my fingers about is Epidemius retaining his synergy with Daemon engines.

 lindsay40k wrote:

And the main thing I’m crossing my fingers about is Epidemius retaining his synergy with Daemon engines.

Me too because I've been building my DG/Nurgle army all around that!

 lindsay40k wrote:
Anyone who picked up an Index, that GW made very clear was a temporary get-you-by thing to be replaced by a Codex pretty soon, and which GW also made pretty clear would be rebalanced as they engaged with the community, and from that starting point purchased loads and loads of stuff that seemed undercosted for what it did there and then, was setting themselves up for disappointment.

I’ve got a whole bunch of Tzeentch Daemons stuff, and I’m optimistic on them getting what Pyrovores got - a bit of tweaking here and there to make things viable. I don’t need my Screamers to be pooping melta bombs on land raiders again, just something sensible like the adjustments to Tyrannofex and Dakkafex.

Main thing I want to see is Horrors that play well with Power Level based Matched Play.

And the main thing I’m crossing my fingers about is Epidemius retaining his synergy with Daemon engines.

Power Level matched play is a complete oxymoron for me. You want balanced gameplay, but will never get points adjustments? Seriously. Power levels will probably always stay the same after the codex. Only the points will change, as proven with the chapter approved book.


Anywho... So what's gonna happen to brimstones?
a. only taken by split
b. reduced to T1
c. untouched

the power level MATCHED? really? that kind of BALANCED game where terminators with combi bolters cost same as plasma termies? that's not matched at all... in matched you must pay what you buy period...thanks

Power level matched play works for casual games where you still enjoy some sort of balance. The difference between PL imbalance, and casting miasma of pestilence or warp time +1 time per phase is massive. The type of people who enjoy power level games are not the type to exploit it, which is an alien train of thought to those who enjoy WAAC play. Beer and Pretzels 40k does actually exist.

No need to get all huffy because some people are find with power level.


With brimstones, I think it will be a good time to see how much GW still likes to play the "Everyone bought these models, time to make them unusable" card. I think their battlefield role should be similar to cultists, just camp on objectives, speedbump, and light harassment. However when points get that low, it becomes really tough to balance, especially when your model is basically a tumbleweed with an invulnerable save.

I really don't know what GW should do about them.

They made their bed with Brimstones, they gotta lie in it now. It never should have existed outside of split, but they did it anyway.

If they took them away as a troop option, you'll see an awful lot of angry customers. If they make them available only through split, and they don't make pinks more reasonable, you'll have the same scenario.

Best case, imo, drop the price back to 2ppm, give them only a 5 or 6++, and drop them to T2. Enjoy your horde troop that literally won't ever do anything.

EdIt: I say this as one of the top 10 Daemon players in the ITC. I have a bias with them, but I really don't think they're going to ever "fix" them. My secret hope is that they just make flamers troops and I can use those instead.

The biggest problem with Brimstones becoming t2 is that there are no rules to handle multi-toughness units.

I would rather see another points increase rather than a 5/6++ as Tzeentches thing is having 4++.

The funny thing about Brimstones is that even if they were costed at 5ppm, they would still have better utility than Blue Horrors. And still also better utility than 7ppm Pinks.

IMO they need to improve split to make it more attractive. At the moment you are likely to lose half of your models due to moral after splitting. I wouldn't mind if when splitting that it negates the penalty for the lost model. This would make me consider taking Pinks / Blues just for the resilient hoard factor. It may however be too powerful of an ability.

Does anyone have experience with the Skull Cannon from Khorne Daemons? I want to know just how playable it is. Not how great or good or even ok it is, I just want to know if there is ANY viable reason to /ever/ take this thing.

I'm gonna play my third game with my Slaanesh/EC army and I will be facing Tyranids for the first time. I'll be using these units:

30 Demonettes (3x10 with 1 herald)
10ish seekers with herald
KoS (my first time!)

DP with wings
noise marines
vindicator

I also have a forge/maulerfiend

My opponent will have:
a tryant
swarmlord
tervigon and gaunts
genestealers
exocrine

Out of all that I'm most worried about the swarmlord. How will the KoS and DP fare against it? I can get rid of the KoS to proxy some oblits or a predator, but I'm trying for this to be my fun/casual army and don't want to over do it with all the best units, yet at the same time don't want to get totally crushed. I would also like to keep the KoS for the Slaanesh flavor.

Ideas on how I should play? We're doing 1500 points.

Discodoggy wrote:
I'm gonna play my third game with my Slaanesh/EC army and I will be facing Tyranids for the first time. I'll be using these units:

30 Demonettes (3x10 with 1 herald)
10ish seekers with herald
KoS (my first time!)

DP with wings
noise marines
vindicator

I also have a forge/maulerfiend

My opponent will have:
a tryant
swarmlord
tervigon and gaunts
genestealers
exocrine

Out of all that I'm most worried about the swarmlord. How will the KoS and DP fare against it? I can get rid of the KoS to proxy some oblits or a predator, but I'm trying for this to be my fun/casual army and don't want to over do it with all the best units, yet at the same time don't want to get totally crushed. I would also like to keep the KoS for the Slaanesh flavor.

Ideas on how I should play? We're doing 1500 points.

In my peronsal opinion, chop those seekers down to 5 and add in either Marines, or Cultists. You will find yourself lacking anything to help protect your HQ choices against sudden attacks, which genestealers can easily do. Even so much as 20 cultists or 5 marines and a heavy bolter can go a long way in protecting your back line.

JakeSiren wrote:
The biggest problem with Brimstones becoming t2 is that there are no rules to handle multi-toughness units.

I would rather see another points increase rather than a 5/6++ as Tzeentches thing is having 4++.

The funny thing about Brimstones is that even if they were costed at 5ppm, they would still have better utility than Blue Horrors. And still also better utility than 7ppm Pinks.

IMO they need to improve split to make it more attractive. At the moment you are likely to lose half of your models due to moral after splitting. I wouldn't mind if when splitting that it negates the penalty for the lost model. This would make me consider taking Pinks / Blues just for the resilient hoard factor. It may however be too powerful of an ability.

Increasing the price makes split less viable. They've dropped the print of pinks twice now, but also increased the price of Brims. They're useless, arbitrary changes.

You either need moderately price (12 or so) ppm pinks that have free split and bad saves, or very cheap versions of all the models otherwise no one will ever use them.

There is a monetary argument, as well, as each series of splits for 10 Pinks is $100 US for the price. It's an absolute atrocious troops choice because you have no other option, and they've shoehorned it into the ground.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The biggest problem with Brimstones becoming t2 is that there are no rules to handle multi-toughness units.

I would rather see another points increase rather than a 5/6++ as Tzeentches thing is having 4++.

The funny thing about Brimstones is that even if they were costed at 5ppm, they would still have better utility than Blue Horrors. And still also better utility than 7ppm Pinks.

IMO they need to improve split to make it more attractive. At the moment you are likely to lose half of your models due to moral after splitting. I wouldn't mind if when splitting that it negates the penalty for the lost model. This would make me consider taking Pinks / Blues just for the resilient hoard factor. It may however be too powerful of an ability.

Increasing the price makes split less viable. They've dropped the print of pinks twice now, but also increased the price of Brims. They're useless, arbitrary changes.

You either need moderately price (12 or so) ppm pinks that have free split and bad saves, or very cheap versions of all the models otherwise no one will ever use them.

There is a monetary argument, as well, as each series of splits for 10 Pinks is $100 US for the price. It's an absolute atrocious troops choice because you have no other option, and they've shoehorned it into the ground.

Don't the Tzaangors or whatever they're called have the Daemon keyword? They're Tzeetch Daemons, just from a different side of the Chaos Books