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The charge 3d6 strat for Khorne is nice but I see it more useful after the initial charges in the event you need to make some absurdly big charge with your remaining Bloodletters. Spending 3CP to put 3x20 Bloodletters in Deep Strike is very nice, not to mention you should still be able to put Heralds inside your Drop Pods. So you drop the Pod down, then drop in your entire army of Bloodletters, then they have re-rolling charges from the Herald and your Berzerkers that pop out of the Pod have a nice Bloodletter screen. Now your opponent has way too many threats in their face all at once. Currently being clarified.
There is still a lot that can go wrong with this strategy. Armies that have lots of board control can potentially negate your entire plan, and shooting armies will overwatch you to death (can be mitigated by charging one thing and then fanning out to tag other things, remember that the initial charge move doesn't follow consolidate move rules). Plus it's kind of...boring? IDK, I guess I'm so used to footing it up the board. I'll have to go back to the drawing board and see what can be seen.
Edit: I was actually thinking "one trick pony" and not "boring", but at the end of the day Khorne is about smashing your opponents face till they aint got no face no more, so I'm OK with this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 20:46:47
@andysonic1, how are you getting Heralds in a Drop Pod? They transport <LEGION> or <MARK OF CHAOS> INFANTRY. I don’t see anything in the Chaos Daemons list stating that allegiance keywords constitute a Mark.
Yeah you can't really pod a herald, but you really dont need to?? Just summon one, and then train one or 2 blood letters back to the herald to get into the aura for the charge buff/strength buff.
This FAQ from the Designers Commentary says that after the battle begins, the difference between keywords is gone, which allows Possessed to gain power from Heralds even when they do not have the <ALLEGIANCE> keyword, and thus allows Heralds (or any <INFANTRY> Deamon) to get into Drop Pods. Now, it is up for debate if this actually means they can START inside drop pods or if they can just hop into them in the middle of the game, but that really depends on what they mean by "once the battle begins". I feel that are just making sure you can't make lists that break the game.
Q: What is the difference between a
keyword and a Faction keyword?
A: The only real difference is that Faction
keywords are used when building an army;
when Battle-forging an army, for instance,
you will often only be able to include units
in the same detachment if they share the
same Faction keyword. Also, if you are
playing a matched play game, you will need
to have an Army Faction – this is a Faction
keyword that is shared by all of the units
in your entire army (with the exception
of those that are Unaligned). Once the
battle has begun, there is no functional
difference between a keyword and a
Faction keyword.
For example, when creating a Battle-forged army
for matched play, I take two Patrol Detachments;
the first contains only units with the Heretic
Astartes Faction keyword, and the second
contains only units with the Daemon Faction
keyword. My Army Faction is ‘Chaos’ because
this is a Faction keyword every unit in the entire
army shares.
Once the battle has begun, the distinction
between keywords and Faction keywords no
longer has any effect – both are used to interact
with abilities identically. Imagine, then, that
the Heretic Astartes Detachment contains
a unit of Possessed (which does not have the
Daemon Faction keyword, but does have the
Daemon keyword), and I choose for them to
replace their <Mark of Chaos> keyword
with Khorne. If the Daemon Detachment
contained a Herald of Khorne, his ability to ‘add
1 to the Strength characteristic of all Khorne
Daemons’ would also apply to the unit of
Possessed, as they have both the Khorne and
Daemon keywords
This pretty much eliminates the need to summon Heralds and / or Deamon Infantry but at the cost of the Pods, and allows Heralds to ride with your bois. Skulltaker + Herald + Kharn + Exalted Champ + 2x8 Berzerker units dropping down behind 60 Bloodletters was my crazy idea.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 19:53:01
andysonic1 wrote: This FAQ from the Designers Commentary says that after the battle begins, the difference between keywords is gone, which allows Possessed to gain power from Heralds even when they do not have the <ALLEGIANCE> keyword, and thus allows Heralds (or any <INFANTRY> Deamon) to get into Drop Pods. Now, it is up for debate if this actually means they can START inside drop pods or if they can just hop into them in the middle of the game, but that really depends on what they mean by "once the battle begins". I feel that are just making sure you can't make lists that break the game.
Q: What is the difference between a
keyword and a Faction keyword?
A: The only real difference is that Faction
keywords are used when building an army;
when Battle-forging an army, for instance,
you will often only be able to include units
in the same detachment if they share the
same Faction keyword. Also, if you are
playing a matched play game, you will need
to have an Army Faction – this is a Faction
keyword that is shared by all of the units
in your entire army (with the exception
of those that are Unaligned). Once the
battle has begun, there is no functional
difference between a keyword and a
Faction keyword.
For example, when creating a Battle-forged army
for matched play, I take two Patrol Detachments;
the first contains only units with the Heretic
Astartes Faction keyword, and the second
contains only units with the Daemon Faction
keyword. My Army Faction is ‘Chaos’ because
this is a Faction keyword every unit in the entire
army shares.
Once the battle has begun, the distinction
between keywords and Faction keywords no
longer has any effect – both are used to interact
with abilities identically. Imagine, then, that
the Heretic Astartes Detachment contains
a unit of Possessed (which does not have the
Daemon Faction keyword, but does have the
Daemon keyword), and I choose for them to
replace their <Mark of Chaos> keyword
with Khorne. If the Daemon Detachment
contained a Herald of Khorne, his ability to ‘add
1 to the Strength characteristic of all Khorne
Daemons’ would also apply to the unit of
Possessed, as they have both the Khorne and
Daemon keywords
Hmm, this doesn’t fly with me. Agreed that you could probably persuade some rules lawyers that Skulltaker can jump into a MoK Rhino. But BRB says you declare what units are inside a transport when you set the transport up. Alpha Legion Stratagem FAQ confirms that this takes place before the battle had begun (therefore, Skulltaker or Herald’s Khornate alignment is not yet indistinguishable from Berzerkers’ MoK).
Also, Tyranid Codex FAQ confirms that you can’t (1) move reserves from one method of entry to another, and (2) you can’t place a unit in reserve unless unit or scenario rules permit. Standard Matched Play missions tend to not allow you to place any unit you like in reserve, the ability of a Dreadclaw (and the units that were already inside when the game began) to deep strike during the game comes from its own special ability.
So, even if it’s perfectly fine for, say, Changeling to embark into a TSDC, and even if it’s a scenario in which you can put Changeling in reserve, you can’t put it in reserve in the DC, nor can it migrate from footslogging reserve into the DC. I wouldn’t expect most rules lawyers to accept it, nor would I expect the loophole to remain arguable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could just put the Heralds on Juggernauts? That’ll probably enable aura distance on turn one. It’d avoid negotiations on the semantics as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 20:04:36
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm, this doesn’t fly with me. Agreed that you could probably persuade some rules lawyers that Skulltaker can jump into a MoK Rhino. But BRB says you declare what units are inside a transport when you set the transport up. Alpha Legion Stratagem FAQ confirms that this takes place before the battle had begun (therefore, Skulltaker or Herald’s Khornate alignment is not yet indistinguishable from Berzerkers’ MoK).
Also, Tyranid Codex FAQ confirms that you can’t (1) move reserves from one method of entry to another, and (2) you can’t place a unit in reserve unless unit or scenario rules permit. Standard Matched Play missions tend to not allow you to place any unit you like in reserve, the ability of a Dreadclaw (and the units that were already inside when the game began) to deep strike during the game comes from its own special ability.
So, even if it’s perfectly fine for, say, Changeling to embark into a TSDC, and even if it’s a scenario in which you can put Changeling in reserve, you can’t put it in reserve in the DC, nor can it migrate from footslogging reserve into the DC. I wouldn’t expect most rules lawyers to accept it, nor would I expect the loophole to remain arguable.
Rhinos only allow <Legion> Infantry inside, and Deamons cannot be World Eaters or any other Legion, so it would take some real convincing to allow Skulltaker into a Rhino. The Forward Operatives FAQ is the real kicker here since it implies that "deployment" is "before the battle begins".
I'm not sure what you mean regarding the Tyranid Codex FAQ since the Director's Commentary FAQ explains that it is possible for Deamon Infantry to get into the Pods. This has nothing to do with changing their location illegally, this is about keyword interactions allowing them to start the battle embarked. After the battle begins, for example, the rules on the Pod would change to "This model can transport 20 World Eater or Khorne Infantry models". The real question is if they can start in them, which is IMPLIED they cannot from the Forward Operatives FAQ. However, after the battle begins and keywords are all blended together, there's currently nothing stopping them from jumping in.
I'll concede the point (begin embarked) and shoot some emails to GW and Frontline Gaming.
Daemons have the same mark of chaos as chaos space marines in the chaos space marine and death guard codex. I would say that other index daemons also have a mark of chaos but it isnt spelled out explicitly, hopefully the codex will clarify.
So while you are right in in that it can be used that way. You are wrong in that stuff that called for <mark of khorne> or anything that is <xyz> must have originally been that way.
Here is an example for ynnari
Can any Ynnari unit embark on any Ynnari transport?
A: No. Whilst both units have gained the Ynnari
keyword, the Transport ability on the transport’s
datasheet does not change. So, for example, an Ynnari
Starweaver can still only transport ‘6 <Masque>
Infantry models’
IN that instance i could jsut make all ther <xyz> abilities in my army say ynnari and jump in the transports right?? but apparently i can't do that.
So if something has an <xyz> requirement the target hoping to fullfill that requirement would also need to have the same <xyz> requirement and have also chose the same keyword for that to work.
the ynnari example is pretty much a direct answer to what you are saying you are trying to do.
In the same way there are several answer that contradict waht you are trying to do for instnace:
Q: If I create an Astra Militarum
Regiment of my own and name them,
for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and
I then also create an Adeptus Astartes
Chapter of my own choosing, and also
call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the
abilities that work on the <Regiment>
and/or <Chapter> keywords now work
on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus
Astartes units?
A: No.
The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters,
etc. of your own creation is to personalise
your collections and not to enable players to
circumvent the restrictions on what abilities
affect what units. It is also not intended to
circumvent the restrictions on which units are
able to be included in the same Detachment.
It seems simple enough for me, no Heralds cannot deploy in Dreadclaws because they are placed in the Pod before the game starts, but they may embark later in the game if they share allegiance. Though that designers commentary has got me believing quite strongly that the new daemon strats may work with Mortarion. Looking forward to a deep striking Morty with a 3++ invun. I think you may have a hard time arguing that you can start a herald in a drop pod, because units are deployed inside the transports before the game begins and at that point faction keywords do matter.
Edit: Unless there is no rule that specifically stops cross faction transport jumping or FAQ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 20:46:14
That Eldar FAQ strongly implies that Faction Keywords continue to matter when they are specifically stated on a vehicle, which contradicts the Designer Commentary FAQ regarding Keyword interactions. So who the feth even knows what's going on anymore LOL
If Flamers truly do end up at 12" S5, Squads of 5 of them are going to be quite powerful. Keeps them just under the 9PL allowing you to deep strike them for 1CP.
Cephalobeard wrote: If Flamers truly do end up at 12" S5, Squads of 5 of them are going to be quite powerful. Keeps them just under the 9PL allowing you to deep strike them for 1CP.
andysonic1 wrote: That Eldar FAQ strongly implies that Faction Keywords continue to matter when they are specifically stated on a vehicle, which contradicts the Designer Commentary FAQ regarding Keyword interactions. So who the feth even knows what's going on anymore LOL
While i definitly think thier is always gonjna be some GW confusion.
I just think it's simply is a rule ask for something to be <XYZ> it's just got another layer in that, that thing mustb e <XYZ> and can't be just XYZ. Basicly transports want <mark of chaos>, so you pick <nurgle> then only <nurgle> stuff can get in, but Nurgle stuff can't.
Where as a rule that wants XYZ can work with <XYZ> and XYZ units. In this case heralds buff Nurgle units so <Nurgle> and Nurgle units can get buffed by it.
Cephalobeard wrote: If Flamers truly do end up at 12" S5, Squads of 5 of them are going to be quite powerful. Keeps them just under the 9PL allowing you to deep strike them for 1CP.
DS + burination in 1 turn.
YAASSSSSS PLEASE!
I got 15 of those buggers.
I bought 12 while they're still $20/3 on eBay, bringing me to 15. Seems like a solid investment, as 3 squads of 5 deepstriking is quite a bit of pain.
I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
This is my concern for all greater daemons a 5++ that can be buffed to a 4++ just doesn't cut it with the amount of multi wound shooting out there. They also cost a bomb and don't seem worth it.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
This is my concern for all greater daemons a 5++ that can be buffed to a 4++ just doesn't cut it with the amount of multi wound shooting out there. They also cost a bomb and don't seem worth it.
actualy with a small price from the lord of change is pretty good when you do a point for point analyse of the durability of the model.
Currently the great unclean one durability wise is pretty great getting 5++/5+++ which is about a 4+ save on a pretty cheap frame. It jsut lacks in things to do when up close, but with a few more spells it starts to look pretty good. Aoe mortal wound on that fat body could get scary.
Lord of change with a 4++ is also pretty decent, a gain though out put wise it really doesn't do enough currently. Some stronger spells can make this a thing, and a small price drop will make very competive quite quickly.
The blood thirster is the only not so great one, its now got some more punch. It becomes fairly durable with the armor of scorn and oblivious to pain, but the other two greater demons are definitely the tougher ones.
Oh all of this is comparing to the durability of something like a leman russ which is the bare minimum of durability, and the hemlock being the most durable big thing you can bring the 3 greater demons i listed will be about as durable as a hemlock wraith fighter against guard and more so against space marines and the like.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
This is my concern for all greater daemons a 5++ that can be buffed to a 4++ just doesn't cut it with the amount of multi wound shooting out there. They also cost a bomb and don't seem worth it.
actualy with a small price from the lord of change is pretty good when you do a point for point analyse of the durability of the model.
Currently the great unclean one durability wise is pretty great getting 5++/5+++ which is about a 4+ save on a pretty cheap frame. It jsut lacks in things to do when up close, but with a few more spells it starts to look pretty good. Aoe mortal wound on that fat body could get scary.
Lord of change with a 4++ is also pretty decent, a gain though out put wise it really doesn't do enough currently. Some stronger spells can make this a thing, and a small price drop will make very competive quite quickly.
The blood thirster is the only not so great one, its now got some more punch. It becomes fairly durable with the armor of scorn and oblivious to pain, but the other two greater demons are definitely the tougher ones.
Oh all of this is comparing to the durability of something like a leman russ which is the bare minimum of durability, and the hemlock being the most durable big thing you can bring the 3 greater demons i listed will be about as durable as a hemlock wraith fighter against guard and more so against space marines and the like.
What about the keeper of secrets ?
It only has a 5++ and a mere 12 wounds it does only cost 223pts but that is 223 wasted points when it dies on turn 1 before getting to do anything (doesn't even have a good aura)
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
This is my concern for all greater daemons a 5++ that can be buffed to a 4++ just doesn't cut it with the amount of multi wound shooting out there. They also cost a bomb and don't seem worth it.
actualy with a small price from the lord of change is pretty good when you do a point for point analyse of the durability of the model.
Currently the great unclean one durability wise is pretty great getting 5++/5+++ which is about a 4+ save on a pretty cheap frame. It jsut lacks in things to do when up close, but with a few more spells it starts to look pretty good. Aoe mortal wound on that fat body could get scary.
Lord of change with a 4++ is also pretty decent, a gain though out put wise it really doesn't do enough currently. Some stronger spells can make this a thing, and a small price drop will make very competive quite quickly.
The blood thirster is the only not so great one, its now got some more punch. It becomes fairly durable with the armor of scorn and oblivious to pain, but the other two greater demons are definitely the tougher ones.
Oh all of this is comparing to the durability of something like a leman russ which is the bare minimum of durability, and the hemlock being the most durable big thing you can bring the 3 greater demons i listed will be about as durable as a hemlock wraith fighter against guard and more so against space marines and the like.
What about the keeper of secrets ?
It only has a 5++ and a mere 12 wounds it does only cost 223pts but that is 223 wasted points when it dies on turn 1 before getting to do anything (doesn't even have a good aura)
everything in the game can die turn 1 for the most part. Mortarian/ magnus the red can all die turn one and are more or less durable than the greater daemons... but those are used often in competive play.
Bah, I don;t really care about the Magnus/Morty thing (powerful as it is). I'm stoked about deepstriking Bloodletters. Lots of Bloodletters... ALL the Bloodletters! Muhuhahahaha!1!
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
Nope... my Thirster is going in mah list now.
I can... DS him Turn 1....
Or, DS say... 3 units of 5 flamers Turn 1... and let the Thirster mosey up the board.
Whatcha gunno do? Take care of the flamers in front of you? Or the Thirster that will be in range next Turn
Morty/Magnus doesn't even need to DS, as Demons can truly present awful target priorities to your opponent!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fenris-77 wrote: Bah, I don;t really care about the Magnus/Morty thing (powerful as it is). I'm stoked about deepstriking Bloodletters. Lots of Bloodletters... ALL the Bloodletters! Muhuhahahaha!1!
This!
I don't think folks appreciate how meta-busting the DS stratigem is going to be...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 04:31:17
60 DS Bloodletters, 60 Walking Bloodletters, and maybe 8-10 Heralds on Jugger (or whatever 1000pts of characters). Just off the top of my head. That's what, 9 CMD points? Madness!
3d6 charge plus (maybe) +1 from the icon on the DS units?! Whoo-whee!!
I had army plans, but Khorne may have just slipped back to the top of my to-do pile.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
they can get an artefact with 4++ and 1 free DTW ability. not bad eh?
A warlord trait (if you dont care about ur warlord being the BT), 6+++ FnP , if you pass the fnp save, you can reroll all hit and wounds until end of next turn.
So deepstriking BT with 3+/4++/6+++ and 1 dtw, with rerollable charge?
two new addons
Secondary weapon mode (insensate Rage) : S: user AP-2 1 dmg - Make 2 hit rolls instead of 1 for each attack made with this weapon.
Ability (all BTs) : Every hit on 6, generate two hits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 06:39:55
I'm wanting to a make nurgle./tzeentch/khorne work in an elemetnal style army, but i'm unsure.
DS alot of stuff seem cool, but it's quickly countered by enemy scouting units. who will block off DS routes. So is Daemon DSing gets good, scouting units can quickly rise to counter.
From there our other turn 1 damage option is something like psykic. Defenity a strong option, but on the nurgle side you really need to get close, and from the tzeetch side you have to get off hard spell and have a limited arsenal.
So i think a beta strike force might be the best bet for chaos daemons??? I also think summoning might be good to keep scouting units in check and provide decent options. the summoning option also lends it's self to the beta strike, idea as you'll want a turn to get close.
From there the list i'd go with would be something like:
Supreme command (tzneetch)
3x Herald of Tzneetch on chariot
Supreme command (khorne)
Herald on jugger
2x foot herald
I think this with the plague bears up from tanking, nurglings pushing back scouts and deep strikers, while chariots provide a second layer of durability. This way you can get a turn to move up, and then summon.
Leaves space to summon about 800pts of stuff, and lets you DS a GUO and throw miasma on it for protection. With enough summoning to summon ~4 20 man squads of the 3 lesser daemons depending on the targets you might be facing.
ANywho random shot in the dark. Not sure how to make it rather competive otherwise?? as the tricks availible to the daemons seem easily countered outside of something like this, and leaning heavily on our more durable options to make a more consistant list.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Morty/Magnus don't need deepstrike? DDDDDDDDD
How about having 2 of the most powerful models in the game always attack first and be immune turn 1.
you sure? start 2nd and dont be afraid to be wipped out from the table, then deepstrike cast psy powers and warptime them in enemy face....
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~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
DDDDDDDDD
