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 Galas wrote:
That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"

I played a two Battalion list using CSM for one and Deamons for the other yesterday. 9CP, 3 of which I used before the battle began to put 30 bloodletters into deep strike + give them a 3D6 banner, and then another 1 for another relic. Down to 5CP, and then started using reroll stratagem, the extra die on perils strat, and the deny strat from World Eaters. You'll be able to bring back a unit once, maybe twice if you don't use other stratagems. Let's take a moment to breath and process realistic game scenarios and not declare Grey Knights useless because of one stratagem that is arguably worse than 90% of the other stratagems in the Deamons Codex.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"

I played a two Battalion list using CSM for one and Deamons for the other yesterday. 9CP, 3 of which I used before the battle began to put 30 bloodletters into deep strike + give them a 3D6 banner, and then another 1 for another relic. Down to 5CP, and then started using reroll stratagem, the extra die on perils strat, and the deny strat from World Eaters. You'll be able to bring back a unit once, maybe twice if you don't use other stratagems. Let's take a moment to breath and process realistic game scenarios and not declare Grey Knights useless because of one stratagem that is arguably worse than 90% of the other stratagems in the Deamons Codex.

And not to mention that if someone isn't running 100% GKs, they could drop your big models to 2-3 wounds with their smite spam/Daemon weapons and then have another detachment unit finish them off.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"

I played a two Battalion list using CSM for one and Deamons for the other yesterday. 9CP, 3 of which I used before the battle began to put 30 bloodletters into deep strike + give them a 3D6 banner, and then another 1 for another relic. Down to 5CP, and then started using reroll stratagem, the extra die on perils strat, and the deny strat from World Eaters. You'll be able to bring back a unit once, maybe twice if you don't use other stratagems. Let's take a moment to breath and process realistic game scenarios and not declare Grey Knights useless because of one stratagem that is arguably worse than 90% of the other stratagems in the Deamons Codex.

And not to mention that if someone isn't running 100% GKs, they could drop your big models to 2-3 wounds with their smite spam/Daemon weapons and then have another detachment unit finish them off.

Exactly. Of all the things to worry about breaking the game, this Stratagem is not one of them. Being able to deep strike 30 Bloodletters and then fan out 3D6 + 3 pile in + 3 consolidate allowed me to surround completely shut down half my opponents armies. TO BE FAIR: neither of his two lists were as powergamy as mine ended up being, and he wasn't utilizing his chaff units to screen, and he thought his Sanguinary Guard could tango with my heavy hitters. Still, even if all your Bloodletters do is clear the enemy screening unit, they then force your opponent to deal with them and not the rest of the army surging forward.

I am very excited for my Khorne army going forward.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"

I played a two Battalion list using CSM for one and Deamons for the other yesterday. 9CP, 3 of which I used before the battle began to put 30 bloodletters into deep strike + give them a 3D6 banner, and then another 1 for another relic. Down to 5CP, and then started using reroll stratagem, the extra die on perils strat, and the deny strat from World Eaters. You'll be able to bring back a unit once, maybe twice if you don't use other stratagems. Let's take a moment to breath and process realistic game scenarios and not declare Grey Knights useless because of one stratagem that is arguably worse than 90% of the other stratagems in the Deamons Codex.

And not to mention that if someone isn't running 100% GKs, they could drop your big models to 2-3 wounds with their smite spam/Daemon weapons and then have another detachment unit finish them off.

Exactly. Of all the things to worry about breaking the game, this Stratagem is not one of them. Being able to deep strike 30 Bloodletters and then fan out 3D6 + 3 pile in + 3 consolidate allowed me to surround completely shut down half my opponents armies. TO BE FAIR: neither of his two lists were as powergamy as mine ended up being, and he wasn't utilizing his chaff units to screen, and he thought his Sanguinary Guard could tango with my heavy hitters. Still, even if all your Bloodletters do is clear the enemy screening unit, they then force your opponent to deal with them and not the rest of the army surging forward.

I am very excited for my Khorne army going forward.

Agreed. Its kind of like the Eldar resurrection stratagem for the Avatar. I have only once ever had enough CP's left by turn 3 to use it, and the Avatar wasn't getting targeted by that point so I spend them on something else. If your holding onto those points just because your going to want to use them vs a Grey Knight chapter at a specific point then how is this upsetting to the Grey Knight player?

But I have a question. If I'm playing an Imperial 'Soup' list of say Marines with a small detachment of Imperial Guard and another small detachment of Grey Knights does that mean the fact there is a GK on the board you get to use that stratagem or does the unit actually have to be killed by the GK? What is the actual writing on that stratagem?

 mrhappyface wrote:
Also, what is the point of this warlord trait?

Khorne – Add +1 to your Warlord’s Attack characteristic if there are more enemy models than friendly models within 8″.

There is already a warlord trait that gives +1A no matter what, why would you take this new one?

CSM have a permanent +1A WL trait. The BRB trait for +1A applies only on the charge. I’d still probably rather have that, though.

the stratagem is just there to even the palying field for theo ther benefits GK has against daemons so that you can ahve a not one sided game. As gk has a decent range of anti daemon tools

Well now that we pretty much have everything... List ideas?

Is taking 30 bloodletters actually worth it? They're killy enough as is with 20. And you don't really want to wipe the unit, you want it to die on the other turn

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that we pretty much have everything... List ideas?

Is taking 30 bloodletters actually worth it? They're killy enough as is with 20. And you don't really want to wipe the unit, you want it to die on the other turn

yes you bring 30 for ALOT of reasons.

1. a Unit of one, 5, 10, or 30 can all kil labout the same amount ofm odels in a unit as long as you are smart with your pile in and you just only bring or 2 models into melee range. the rest of the models can do other thing ssuch as

2. with 30 models it's easier to get surrounds on units or multiple units such that your opponnenlt will have difficults or no ability to retreat.

3. As you are trying to not kill said units, and other units could be near by, and you have to charge: it is highly likely that many blood letters will die before you start doing damage 30 is insurance that you actually just get the darn job done. Lose one model to over watch at 20 and you lose +1 to hit.

4. while it's true you want to kill the enemy unit in the next turn with most melee units. Blood letters do most thier damage in the fire turn of combat, WIth 30 blood letters you can have 15 of a unit attack a unit nad blow it up with 30 attacks, and the nthe other 15 can spend thier time finding an nice victim for the 2nd turn to keep you company during your opponents shooting phase.

SO??? i think yeah you want 30, anythign else kind of fails to do anything particularly well

well.. you only need 1 cp if you deep strike in a unit of 20 blood letters. I think its not a small consideration. For 2 CP, I can deep strike in 2 units of 20 blood letters. That's going to be more flexible and have more hitting power than deep striking in one unit of 30.

I think the icon lets Khorne add +1 to its charge anyway. If its blood letters, maybe its better to just have 3 units of 20 blood letters to help make up the battalion detachment, then spend 3 cp to deep strike those three units, and just rely on the making the 8 inch charge roll instead of spending even more cp on those blood letters.

If you fail one of those charges, you always have the option to spend a cp to reroll on of the dice. Not sure if you absolutely need to spend the 1 cp for a 3d6 charge roll when you already have a pretty good chance of making it in.

Then you can spend cp on other stuff. CP is useful for all sorts of things.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Grey Knights: the single faction most capable of banishing a Daemon for a hundred years

Grey Knights: the single faction against which the same Daemon can jump back in over and over and over

I can see what they were doing with this, recreating the (brilliant) 3ed rule enabling Daemons to recycle units against GK, balancing the GK bonuses against Daemons and creating a narrative hook that the GK are deployed because the incursion is out of control, but this seems to be a very odd way of doing it. Rather than a numberless wave after wave of Daemons, it’s going to mean that Primarchs and the huge FW ones are going to laugh and sing That’s Not My Name as Draigo frantically reads from the tome of banishing

Can't use the stratagem on named Daemons, if that is what you're saying.

Raulengrin wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Grey Knights: the single faction most capable of banishing a Daemon for a hundred years

Grey Knights: the single faction against which the same Daemon can jump back in over and over and over

I can see what they were doing with this, recreating the (brilliant) 3ed rule enabling Daemons to recycle units against GK, balancing the GK bonuses against Daemons and creating a narrative hook that the GK are deployed because the incursion is out of control, but this seems to be a very odd way of doing it. Rather than a numberless wave after wave of Daemons, it’s going to mean that Primarchs and the huge FW ones are going to laugh and sing That’s Not My Name as Draigo frantically reads from the tome of banishing

Can't use the stratagem on named Daemons, if that is what you're saying.

I wasn't aware of that restriction, but that makes sense. You can still bring back a Brass Scorpion or other massive non-named beast, though.

You can bring back lots of stuff, but it's only limited to GK which are splashed for at best. While it also is erasily countered by just reducing units to 1 or 2 models and letthing them run around half dead.

it could be good on the super heavies, but i feel like many of the big bad super heavy models score thier points after multiple turns of play, and against other super heavy models, and thus i think they struggle to be revelent in my mind.

So I am a non-daemons player who is looking at the army with the impending new codex. I had been looking at Death Guard as well... but I thought I would ask here before I make a final move.

I am interested in Slaanesh but they don't seem to have as much "stuff" as the other armies. Does everyone think Slaanesh are viable with this codex and do they have enough models? After looking at them I am hoping there's a new keeper of secrets.. it looks fairly old. Anyway, tips would be nice!

So I know people don't exactly love the Treason of Tzeentch, but together with the new re-roll psycic power it becomes somewhat reliable to use against mid leadership characters.

I wonder though, can it be used to tie up an enemy group to prevent them from shooting overwatch? i e possessing a warlock and then charging first with it.

 knas wrote:
So I know people don't exactly love the Treason of Tzeentch, but together with the new re-roll psycic power it becomes somewhat reliable to use against mid leadership characters.

I wonder though, can it be used to tie up an enemy group to prevent them from shooting overwatch? i e possessing a warlock and then charging first with it.

Your idea works, I think. Using the reroll psychic power and Treason gives you good chances in controlling a medium leadership character, but most often it would be better to snipe them with Bolt of Change. They are often just too weak to do anything in melee or shooting.

 knas wrote:
So I know people don't exactly love the Treason of Tzeentch, but together with the new re-roll psycic power it becomes somewhat reliable to use against mid leadership characters.

I wonder though, can it be used to tie up an enemy group to prevent them from shooting overwatch? i e possessing a warlock and then charging first with it.

That would definitely work. Actually getting the power to be effective is the problem with that plan.

While circumstantial, the idea was to use it to stop annoying overwatch from stuff like flamers or Eldar. Not for using the target to actually do the fighting. But it's still 2 psychic powers just for that I guess

 knas wrote:
While circumstantial, the idea was to use it to stop annoying overwatch from stuff like flamers or Eldar. Not for using the target to actually do the fighting. But it's still 2 psychic powers just for that I guess

Well, even a Warlock has leadership 8. That would be a chance of a bit more than 60% to control them and does not take into account the chances of casting Treason. This would make the chances drop to 38ish %. I assume it is not really worth it.

Controling Magnus or Mortarion however might be worth the risk. (21% chance roughly)

Updated my Chaos Daemons summary thanks to the handy 3 hour video https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8QVZBYUpDUXBfbDg
All changes outlined in green. Yes, you can go play with the full codex today.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Updated my Chaos Daemons summary thanks to the handy 3 hour video https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8QVZBYUpDUXBfbDg
All changes outlined in green. Yes, you can go play with the full codex today.

Finally! Geez, took you some time you lazy nerd.
Just kidding dude, great work as usual

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Updated my Chaos Daemons summary thanks to the handy 3 hour video https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8QVZBYUpDUXBfbDg
All changes outlined in green. Yes, you can go play with the full codex today.

Thanks for the info, but it appears that there are some transcription mistakes? For example the points values on Nurglings are inconsistent. Also, are you sure that the Mischief Makers rule is correct? I would be surprised that's what it is.

The only mistakes that might be there is the inconsistent points. The top points will always be corrent and I'll correct the others if I'm notified.

But yes, Nurgling's rule change to that.

What do you guys think of screamers with this? Can you confirm that the Slashing Attack does not need units to advance, but simply move over enemies?

Alright, so in rvd's write up, it turns out the GK stratagem only works on non-named daemon characters; So no bringing primarchs back to life. However, it still works on greater daemons and daemon engines so... I'm still gonna be slapping GK players back and forth with the brass scorpion.

arhurt wrote:
What do you guys think of screamers with this? Can you confirm that the Slashing Attack does not need units to advance, but simply move over enemies?

It is confirmed. Still. It's 1 mortal wound every 6 screamers. Nothing impressive. They're still quite bad durability wise and their damage is just "OK"

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The only mistakes that might be there is the inconsistent points. The top points will always be corrent and I'll correct the others if I'm notified.

But yes, Nurgling's rule change to that.

What was the rule for Nurglings before? I assume this is a nerf...

So my 1250 list is...
Khorne patrol:
Skulltaker
30 Bloodletters icon, instrument (don't have more atm)

Nurgle batallion:
Scrivener
Poxbringer(Horn of Nurgle's rot... I guess?) (+1 to wound power)
2x 3 Nurglings
30 plaguebearers(instrument)

Tzeentch batallion:
Changecaster(re-roll 1s to wound trait) (+1 to wound power, boon/bolt of change)
Changecaster (re-roll 1 dice power, Infernal gateway)
2x 10 Brimstones
30 Pinks (Icon and 17 pts for 1 full split)

9 CP: 3 to 5 for bloodletters(deepstrike, 3D6, +1 invul), 2 for pinks, 2 for Skulltaker and Changecaster. 2 for an autopass morale.

Plaguebearers to footslog and take up the board?
Thoughts? I don't want to take any big guys unless they are REALLY good because they give up 4 points.

EDIT: or just cut 1 model of each troop(2 for PB), icons and have a wingless Khorne DP instead of Skulltaker for the (6+ generates more hits stratagem and just overall anti-tank, re-roll 1s goodness)

Chaos Daemons Faction Focus wrote:Excitingly, unlike previous editions, these Loci affect every single Daemon unit in your detachment, including your Greater Daemons!

This opens the door to some interesting combinations.

Example:

Tzeentch Vanguard:
Herald on Disc
Flamers
Flamers
Exalted Flamer

Khorne Outriders:
Herald on Juggernaut
Flesh Hounds
Flesh Hounds
Furies

Chaos Daemons Battalion:
Tzeentch Daemon Prince
Bloodthirster of Being Woken Up Early On A Sunday
30 Pink Horrors
20 Bloodletters
9 Brimstone, 1 Blue

Chaos Daemons Speartip:
Karanak
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon
Burning Chariot

If the preview wasn’t a typo, everything in that army can benefit from Loci, with no tax units. We might well have some creative options to get around ‘I’m not buying and painting sixty ruddy Daemonettes’.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
well.. you only need 1 cp if you deep strike in a unit of 20 blood letters. I think its not a small consideration. For 2 CP, I can deep strike in 2 units of 20 blood letters. That's going to be more flexible and have more hitting power than deep striking in one unit of 30.

I think the icon lets Khorne add +1 to its charge anyway. If its blood letters, maybe its better to just have 3 units of 20 blood letters to help make up the battalion detachment, then spend 3 cp to deep strike those three units, and just rely on the making the 8 inch charge roll instead of spending even more cp on those blood letters.

If you fail one of those charges, you always have the option to spend a cp to reroll on of the dice. Not sure if you absolutely need to spend the 1 cp for a 3d6 charge roll when you already have a pretty good chance of making it in.

Then you can spend cp on other stuff. CP is useful for all sorts of things.

You can try this, but it's not going to work half the time. I play World Eaters and shoved two units of Berzerkers inside a Drop Pod, and let me tell you: I would give my right leg for a 3D6 charge strat. Even on an 8 you are tempting the dark gods by not giving yourself a guaranteed charge. You are also not understanding the significance of charging 3D6+1. When your 30 unit Bloodletters make their charge move, only one model needs to go to the initial charged target. The rest of the unit can move the entire charge distance in any direction they want as long as the entire unit stays in coherence. This means your 30 man unit can tie up an entire side of the board, sweeping in over your opponent's models and surrounding them. This cannot be understated. You can shut down tons of gak easily while the rest of your army rolls up.

It costs 3 CP to do this. If you rely on the 2D6 charge out of deep strike, you are relying on fate to win you games. Spend the CP on the big unit and completely dominate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question that may be in an FAQ: I have a CSM Battalion and a Deamon Battalion. My CSM Battalion has a Deamon Prince warlord. Can he take the Skullreaver if I pay 1CP for it?

 andysonic1 wrote:
Question that may be in an FAQ: I have a CSM Battalion and a Deamon Battalion. My CSM Battalion has a Deamon Prince warlord. Can he take the Skullreaver if I pay 1CP for it?

Why would you want to take the Skullreaver on a CSM DP? The Daemon version gets +1S and +1A as well as re-roll charging.