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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Um.. please tell me what else do Nurgle/Slaanesh/Khorne daemons have if not full on assault and deepstrike. They have (next to) no shooting. That's the problem.
Pure chaos daemons are now, in my opinion, borderline unplayable in tournaments. They are still really good as allies. But alone - NOPE. Maybe tzeentch, but the results would still always be worse than Daemons + CSM

I don't care about tournaments, but my Nurgle Daemons have the scrivener, Drones and prince to go in rather fast (for Nurgle at least ). And I can simply DS in the second turn. Before that I bring in Nurglings, who are now even better due to the DS restriction. There's also the tree, but I didn't try it out yet.

 lindsay40k wrote:
When exactly do we activate our Banner Stratagems, and is there any limit on the number of units that can use them?

I believe it says at the start of the game. Or just before deployment. You have to read it. It's pretty specific anyway you can use it as many times as you want because its not during a turn.

tneva82 wrote:
You are perfect example of WHY GW doesn't care about balance and just shuffles meta around. Army got screwed? Let's buy more models to replace previous ones!

I have more then one army because I like to change playstile regularly. To play 5-6 month shooting everything from the table with IG then switch to non-shooting Daemons for a bit of fresh warp dust or take TS to give myself a challenge. And a lot of players around me do the same. If you play the game for years you will possibly start looking for something new anyways.

Yes changes can hit newcomers very hard: they do not have another army to play or even enough variety in their own army to adopt, but I must say that for most part in 8-th it is not so bad as it was in previous editions. I remember how my Blood Angels became totally useless in 6-th and how Dark Angels become a bikers army overnight. That was hard. But current FAQ is just a shift in meta, not kick in the balls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
When exactly do we activate our Banner Stratagems, and is there any limit on the number of units that can use them?

It says "Before the Battle" so you can use it as many times as you want (or as many Icons you have).

Right now there is almost no way for (non-nurgle) Chaos Daemons to compete as they rely on deepstrike. If you go second, you have to last through 2 whole turns. Turn 1 your opponent moves up without getting out of position. Turn 2 your opponent gets out of position but makes the board deepstrike proof. You cannot interract with the board until AFTER the first turn you can deepstrike. Meaning turn 2 you can't REALLY deepstrike as you won't get your bloodletters anywhere meaningful. Meaning that before turn 3 you have to clear enough AND your opponent has to not block you again. Because if you fail any of those - guess what: you won't deepstrike more than half way across the map, so why are you deepstriking to begin with?
Also it is next to impossible to reliably get First Blood equivalents due to very limited ranged options.

Nick Nanavati has also said that armies that rely on deepstrike assault are almost unplayable. They should only be used as a tool to support another army. Also that daemons are now forced into CSM and pals.

But he's only the objectively best player in the world who plays daemons as one of his main armies so what does he know

No one is saying we weren't hit hard rvd, people just want to explore what alternatives we've got now.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Right now there is almost no way for (non-nurgle) Chaos Daemons to compete as they rely on deepstrike...

I'm doing ok with mono tzeentch flamer spame/summoning. Start out with 3x6 flamers on the board a few exalted, Daemon prince (with Daemonspark), herald and some horrors to taste. I can keep most of the flamers our of sight at deployment. Move up burn chaff and re-summon flamers that die. Control the center of the board. If you opponent pushes up for objectives shut down summoning they are left exposed to your flamers. Flamers are also crazy mobile so you can use terrain pretty well and allows you to keep your army together (herald is on disk, Daemon prince has wings). It works well enough.

Edit: I almost always choose to go second as it encourages my opponent to move up. It also negates a turn of my opponents shooting against any summons (as they come in after my opponent's turn), so say a unit summoned turn 2, will get to shoot turns 2-3-4-5-6, but only be able to be shot turns 3-4-5-6.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Right now there is almost no way for (non-nurgle) Chaos Daemons to compete as they rely on deepstrike.

Daemon Princes can move 12+D6'' and be protected from shooting by chaff (even a single model behind LOS-block denies ALL shooting against characters behind), Screamers can move 16'', Pink Horrors can drop 18 inch away from enemy's screen and shoot the hell out of it, Flamers can do the same even better from 12'', Heralds still have long-range Smite and LoCh can cast Gateway with +2 and possible re-rolls. And so on.

I personally never played Tzeench daemons as a DS-dependent army and sometimes even dropped in my own deployment zone using DS just as a way to protect Flamers or LoCh from alpha strike. You can play daemons even with beta rules. And you can still do a lot of damage and board control. You just need to adopt.

Of course you will nor win any major events with them, but nothing have changed here, it was the same for years.

Same for years??? Screamerstar? Tzeentch wrecking AoS? ok

No thanks, I'll probably just switch to necrons/orks until this dumb rule is fixed somehow. Good luck playing this empty shell of an army until then. You guys are all smarter and better than Nick Nanavati. It's fine he just doesn't see what you see in the army.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Same for years??? Screamerstar? Tzeentch wrecking AoS?

I do not play AoS and that "rerollable 2++" abomination ruled tables for a relatively short period of time. And it was so boring I never played it (as well as Draigo-bomb or other game-breaking combos).

If you want to play Deamons as DS-based army AND your local community wants to use beta rules then you are screwed of course. But it is not the only way and that is what we are trying to say. I think I'll quit this line of discussion anyways, we are going circles. Have a good luck.

Yup, lets leave it as rvd has given up on daemons for now and their is a tournament player who agrees with him.

So anyhoooooooo, what are people's thoughts on a solid turn one board presence for a pure daemon list?

Plague Bears, Nurglings and Horrors seem like obvious choice (and support characters). Have many people tried a blood letter swarm? Before the dex dropped I saw a 90 Bloodletter list get top 3 in a Grant Tournament heat, but not sure if that was a fluke and he just got the right opponents?

"a tournament player" - the best player in the entire world objectively judging by consistent tournament results

And I still haven't REALLY given up on deamons. Nurgle might have a shot.

I tried letter spam yesterday. And as I've said the board was almost completelly covered by the time I got to my turn 2. Not being able to quickly move out with durable units (deepstriking pinks) is a big problem. I'll try with 12 plaguedrones next time. Maybe that'll work. They're durable and take up a ton of space.

So here seems to be the consensus from what I'm reading:

Khorne - hit the hardest because their one gimmick was to deep strike in and charge; now this has been nerfed to turn 2. We may see this used as a second-wave tactic backing up things like Nurgle or a CSM army thats mostly shooting (Havoc's, Defilers, Soulgrinders, Obliterators, etc.)

Nurgle - relatively unscathed as they didn't rely too heavily on deep striking prior to the faq due to their resilience. Because of things like the Tree and Scrivener, they can still operate more or less the same. As well, they synergize well with Death Guard, so yay!

Tzeentch - While positioning your horror bombs to hit the "soft targets" isn't feasible now, they weren't hit too badly. They have a 24" range for the horrors, brims are still fantastic and cheap OS units, and Lord of Change is hard as hell to kill if hes your warlord. Plus other options, like the chariots and flamers, are fast and hit hard in shooting. Will we see a resurgence?

Slaneesh - These guys got a MASSIVE buff with the FAQ. They're fast and can get to the other side of the table T1 without an issue. Their biggest issue is they're squishy, which sucks if you go second. However, the bastard son of the chaos gods I have a feeling will see more tabletime. Evaluating their units, things like Fiends, and Emporers Children CSM detachments really look like they will mesh well together; EC is a shooting army, Slan demons is all about CC.


This is what I can gather. I really do feel that Chaos Daemons is a great allied force, I don't think they can work as a wholely primary force without mixing several of the gods together. However, when you think about mixing World Eaters with Khorne, DG with Nurgle, TS with Tzeentch, EC with Slaneesh... there are some interesting and varied army compositions you can build that combine shooting and CC, while staying fluffy. Thoughts?

 Zid wrote:
Slaneesh - These guys got a MASSIVE buff with the FAQ. They're fast and can get to the other side of the table T1 without an issue. Their biggest issue is they're squishy, which sucks if you go second. However, the bastard son of the chaos gods I have a feeling will see more tabletime. Evaluating their units, things like Fiends, and Emporers Children CSM detachments really look like they will mesh well together; EC is a shooting army, Slan demons is all about CC.

People really need to learn the difference between an army being buffed and all of the equivalent armies being brought down to their crappiness.

This is what I can gather. I really do feel that Chaos Daemons is a great allied force, I don't think they can work as a wholely primary force without mixing several of the gods together. However, when you think about mixing World Eaters with Khorne, DG with Nurgle, TS with Tzeentch, EC with Slaneesh... there are some interesting and varied army compositions you can build that combine shooting and CC, while staying fluffy. Thoughts?

My Fluffy WE are purely combat focused with the only shooting coming from CC units that just happen to have a gun. I said it before and I'll say it again: Khorne Daemons were great for WE armies, giving some distraction so that the mortal Khorne units could actually make it into combat rather than be blown off the board, but now pure CC Khorne will be close to unplayable against shooting armies for anything other than very friendly games.

SPEAKING of summoning: Does it get around the Rule of Three thing? Could I, say, summon in a fourth burning chariot if I already have three in my list?

- Salvage

yes

Oh. My. Tizz.

Guys, I think I might summon a thing for the first time O_O

*sweaty palms, dry mouth, butterflies in the stomach*

- Salvage

The way I see it (and it's just my opinion, so take the salt as you will) is this.

Mono deamon army's were hit pretty hard if your taking just deamons. If they were mono allies then your semi-ok, tactics are still valid.

However pure mono deamon lists were always harder to play than mixed deamon lists. Thankfully I play a mixed deamon list.

Use nurglings to gain turn 1 board control. They are small, they can be placed wherever you want, they are cheap, and they are hard to shift in numbers. This allows turn 2 areas to drop in with bloodletters or pink horrors. Also flamers (as mentioned above) are fast and can give support to said nurglings during first turn to help keep the control of your opponent makes a hole in your control line.

Khorne skull cannons, soul grinders, anything with long range becomes more valuable because we will need some long range support, and if we are sticking to just deamons we don't have a large amount of options. Put mark of nurgle or tzeench on the soul grinder and it becomes more durable and a fire magnet as it moves up the field.

I have always found deamons as a pure force hard to play as, but we can still get the job done. But if your trying to play competitive and pure mono force your really making it harder on yourself.

Not sure if it's intentional or not in addition to me potentially misreading but it looks to me like summoning does not follow this FAQ rule. Because your picking the units from a point pool and not setting up as deployment i'd reason that they ignore the whole units deploying via deepstrike must be within your zone. You could potentially put a herald near the edge of your deployment zone (9-12 inches), use daemonic ritual, put the summoned unit 12 inches in front of the herald turn 1, Also, since the ritual does not as written occur at the end of the movement but rather during it as an alternative to a character moving during the phase it would it be possible to move said unit. Even if not you would still be able to relatively effectively drop horror bombs. and as for the dice gods, well theres finally a reason to use the 2cp summoning strategem, especially since we're probably not using denizens of the warp as often.

Also if you wanted to footslog pink horrors you could spend about 80 points to give 20 ablative wounds via splitting with reasonable saves, especially if you use warp surge.

Yeah, way I read it too is it doesn't apply to summoning, which isn't that big of a deal but it's something.

operkoi wrote:
Even if not you would still be able to relatively effectively drop horror bombs. and as for the dice gods, well theres finally a reason to use the 2cp summoning strategem, especially since we're probably not using denizens of the warp as often.

I had no idea Soul Sacrifice let the summoned unit reroll 1's as well within 6" that turn. No doubt because I never read that strat

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:

operkoi wrote:
Even if not you would still be able to relatively effectively drop horror bombs. and as for the dice gods, well theres finally a reason to use the 2cp summoning strategem, especially since we're probably not using denizens of the warp as often.

I had no idea Soul Sacrifice let the summoned unit reroll 1's as well within 6" that turn. No doubt because I never read that strat

- Salvage

wait it does that? lol i stopped reading after 4 dice summon roll

- Salvage

Eh, my little ploy wouldn't allow for that aura. Plan is to summon the unit around midfield (~12 deployment +12), move it appropriately (+6), then pull off a turn 1 charge or lots of dakka from horror bomb. Assuming the enemy gets first turn and doesn't cower in the corner, and without standard deepstrike they will probably be a bit more aggressive, and give you the objectives you should be able to charge/shoot something.

operkoi wrote:
Eh, my little ploy wouldn't allow for that aura. Plan is to summon the unit around midfield (~12 deployment +12), move it appropriately (+6), then pull off a turn 1 charge or lots of dakka from horror bomb. Assuming the enemy gets first turn and doesn't cower in the corner, and without standard deepstrike they will probably be a bit more aggressive, and give you the objectives you should be able to charge/shoot something.

I'm sorry to break up your dreams, but:
1. Daemonic Ritual is performed "at the end of the Movement phase", so no more movement for a summoned unit.
2. Summoned unit "is treated as reinforcements" so no summoning beyond your deployment zone turn 1.

AstraVlad wrote:

operkoi wrote:
Eh, my little ploy wouldn't allow for that aura. Plan is to summon the unit around midfield (~12 deployment +12), move it appropriately (+6), then pull off a turn 1 charge or lots of dakka from horror bomb. Assuming the enemy gets first turn and doesn't cower in the corner, and without standard deepstrike they will probably be a bit more aggressive, and give you the objectives you should be able to charge/shoot something.

I'm sorry to break up your dreams, but:
1. Daemonic Ritual is performed "at the end of the Movement phase", so no more movement for a summoned unit.
2. Summoned unit "is treated as reinforcements" so no summoning beyond your deployment zone turn 1.

damn, thought it was too good to be true

And just when a glimmer of hope shone through to pull me back into Daemons, it is immediately dashed.

 Zid wrote:

Tzeentch - While positioning your horror bombs to hit the "soft targets" isn't feasible now, they weren't hit too badly. They have a 24" range for the horrors, brims are still fantastic and cheap OS units, and Lord of Change is hard as hell to kill if hes your warlord. Plus other options, like the chariots and flamers, are fast and hit hard in shooting. Will we see a resurgence?

Don't forget those horrors can also advance (+1" is they have an instrument) and still shoot if needed. 5+ to hit but with 90 shots you'll still get to roast something.

As pointed out summoning, while still hurt by the deep-strike rule, does let us get around the rule of 3, so no need to put those 9 exalted flamers on ebay

If I can face painting it all up, 120 pink horrors, heralds and E. Flamers could be a relatively solid list, especially if the meta moves further away from combat. No deep striking so with 2 units of brimies you could get 2 batallions and sit of 13+ command point to boost the save on whichever unit is facing the most damage.

"Use nurglings to gain turn 1 board control. They are small, they can be placed wherever you want, they are cheap, and they are hard to shift in numbers. This allows turn 2 areas to drop in with bloodletters or pink horrors. Also flamers (as mentioned above) are fast and can give support to said nurglings during first turn to help keep the control of your opponent makes a hole in your control line. "

The problem is that nurglings do not create areas. The fact that you have them on the table means nothing unless they are physically blocking the path for the enemy (which most fast units can FLY over)

Daemons do seem to be a support army for Chaos Marines now. Which works for me anyway. I like how all the soup nerfs didn’t do a thing to chaos anyway, when you can just put the same mark on everybody and throw everything in one soup pot.

Supreme Command Detachment with an Iron Warriors Lord of Skulls, Skullmaster with Crimson Crown, Alpha Legion CSM Khorne Daemon Prince and Renegade Khorne Warpsmith is a go! I’ll take turn 2 deepstrikers, they’ll come in the same time as summons from a jump pack Sorcerer and still get rerolled charges with a patrol detachment of Khorne stuff. The FAQ has changed almost nothing except adding a bunch of command points so everything gets blood banners.

I think I'll try to add some long range shooting to my Tzeench army either in the form of 3 Chaos Predators or 3+ Khorne Scull Cannons. I will proxy-test them at the weekend and look for results.