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Virules wrote: London GT doesn't use ITC missions, right? Because it sounds like that list would do terrible with ITC missions. Daemons in general have a hard time with how ITC is set up (need big infantry blobs that give up Reaper, Plague Drones give up Gangbusters, Greater Daemons give up multiple secondaries, extremely hard to get a kill first turn post-faq, etc. etc. etc.).
London GT uses ETC and not ITC. So you're right that the nurgle list will give up a ton of points in ITC
Virules wrote: extremely hard to get a kill first turn post-faq, etc. etc. etc.).
The worst was when I deep struck a max unit of bloodletters pre-FAQ T1 and then proceeded to fail my 3D6 Banner of Blood charge. Getting first blood post-FAQ with pure daemons is a dream of mine...
Virules wrote: extremely hard to get a kill first turn post-faq, etc. etc. etc.).
The worst was when I deep struck a max unit of bloodletters pre-FAQ T1 and then proceeded to fail my 3D6 Banner of Blood charge. Getting first blood post-FAQ with pure daemons is a dream of mine...
It's doable with slaanesh, did it today. But that's about it, khorne isn't going to be getting that.
OK so I had 2 games today with my pure deamons, first vs Primaris Salamanders and 2nd vs Alaitoc Eldar. I won both games, here are the rundowns
Spoiler:
First game vs Primaris. I took
Battalion
Blood throne w/ crimson crown
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster w/ armor of scorne
3 x 10 man Bloodletter squads
Patrol
Lord of change w/ impossible robe and incoporeal form (warlord)
19 pink horrors
Soul grinder
Batallion
Keeper of secrets
Keeper of secrets
3 x 10 woman deamonettes
My opponent took
2 repulser tanks
3 x 5 man intesessor (spelling?) Squads (basic primaris troop one)
1 x 5 man hellblasters
1 leutinant
3 of the huge dreadnoughts
2 of the bigger dreadnoughts (bigger than normal but not the huge ones)
We played a malestorm mission which I won by a lot of points, but when he called it he had almost tabled me. I killed the 2 medium dreadnoughts and 3 of the 5 hellblasters vs me only having my lord of change, one 10 man Bloodletter squad, and the soulgrinder with 5 wounds left. However the issue was the mission we were playing, he kept drawing defend cards and I was always able to "push" him off an objective or I had it covered and he could not get to it. It felt like a hollow victory, but it was what it was by turn 4.
Things I learned!: Keepers of secrets are super fast BUT die to easily. He targeted them first and had it down to 1 wound before it got a turn, 2nd turn he killed the other one and finished the 1st with just one of the repulsers. Greater deamon of Khorne was a fire magnet for good reason but would have been highly successful if he had not rolled 3 5++ saves when I hit his dreadnought, then he used a stratagem to fight again to finish it off. Need to remember I have that ability too and should have done it first. Lord of change is a monster in cc, but keep it away from t7 enemies, it becomes a much harder fight if you do, I got into cc vs one of the huge dreadnoughts and was not able to wound it, locking us both into a hard to win combat (me wounding him on 5's, him trying to get past the 2++ save). All of my deamon squads were pretty worthless vs his mass armor but I was able to hold multiple objectives a turn thanks to my shear numbers and the troop objective holders special rule, so their value was still there. The blood throne does hit like a mach truck in cc but is too slow to matter really. It crushed a dreadnought, the one that killed the bloodthirster but then just got blown away. Did not care for it. Soulgrinder shooting sucks when you have to move and sucks after it takes wounds. So it looks good but not so much in the effectiveness colum. However it was holding a key objective that my opponent could not get at the end so maybe?
2nd game.
Spoiler:
My list.
Batallion
Deamon prince of Khorne w/ crimson crown and talons
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster w/ armor of scorne
3x 10 man Bloodletter squads
Patrol
Lord of change w/ impossible robe & incoporeal form
18 pink horrors
Soulgrinder
Batallion
Deamon prince of Slaanesh
Deamon prince of Slaanesh with wings
Herald of slaanesh
3 x 10 woman deamonettes
My opponent took
2 hemlock jet fighters
2 fire prisims
2 squads of Rangers, 1 five man and 1 10 man
1 x 10 man guardian squad with a bright lance
2 farseers
A 2 man warlock conclave
A single warlock
2 x Dark Reaper squads, 7 men each, + exarch w/ tempest launcher
Again we played malestorm, with the mission that you get 1 card + a card for every objective you hold. I somehow got first turn getting 3 cards at first. I ran the entire army forward (pink horrors in deep strike) and got one of the Deamon Princes of slaanesh into charge range hitting my opponents guardian squad and wiping them out. I then consolidated into the warlocks which put me on one of his objectives (the one the guardians started on but the warlocks were 4" away from), + I was on 2 in the midfield that I had moved the entire army onto, + 2 that I started on keeping a single bloodletter squad and the soulgrinder on them. His 1st Turn he drew 2 cards, but was only able to actually get one (master the warp one, the other was defend obj 4 which my soul grinder was sitting on in my deployment zone). He unleashed an ungodly amount of psycic enemy and firepower, but I was able to deny the important spells (that's a no to jinx...) and then when he fired I popped the stratagem on my lord of change giving it a 2++ save vs the first volley of dark reapers, which ended up doing 1 wound. After that he focused on other monsters (I would have too , why target the 2++ guy?) Dropping the flying deamon prince to 1 wound, killing the greater deamon of khorn, and wounding the soul grinder to 5 wounds. But he didn't target the little deamons on the objectives. I drew 5 additional cards (heck yes) and took a commanding lead on points. I pushed forward, killed the Rangers in cc, killed one of the farseers, did some wounds to a fire prism, killed an exarch and one of the dark reapers from one squad, and was up 8 to 2. His 2nd turn he tried to fight back, killing the deamon prince of Khorne, putting wounds onto the Lord of change (dropped it to 8), and killed 9 deamonettes in one of the forward squads. But it only got him 1 vp and was no where near enough. My 3rd turn I drew 4 more card's and was going to get another 6 vp easy so we called it. I had 10 deamonettes, 10 Bloodletters, 14 pink horrors, and a deamon prince of slaneesh about to charge one of his reapers and warlock / farseer, my lord of change was slapping a fire prism around like a cat toy, and still had trips hanging out on objectives holding them (Herald on one, soulgrinder on one, 10 bloodletters on one, 10 deamonettes on one, and the pinks were on one in his deployment area).
Things I learned : Sometimes killing the stuff that can kill you isn't the answer. If he would have worked on killing the smaller deamons I would not have been able to control the board like I did. Going Alaitoc did him very very little good since I wasn't shooting anything seriously anyways, and ignoring the hemlocks was important. They are scary, but really they can't grab objectives and If I kill all the ground units they go away, so it worked out perfectly. Same with reapers, those guys seem very scarry but this was the first time I played vs them and really, while they were doing damage, it wasn't all that impressive. Again target priority would have helped him I think, and he did kill the bloodthirster of wrath with them and a fire prism, but I rolled horrible for my 4++ saves on it so what can you do.
Lord of change with incoporeal form and impossible robe is so awesome. I loved how it would not die. Greater deamon of khorn, I think I will keep trying him. Not his fault he got shot, I would shoot him too lol. Deamon princes are definitely better than keepers of secrets. Keepers are slightly tougher but are also easier to kill due to targeting rules. So yeah, keepers are out. Same with soulgrinder. It's too expensive for its job, which I am not sure what that is. I ended up using it both times as an objective camper and it did its job but it also was down to 5 wounds both games and killed nothing. For 235 pts there are much better options.
So over all -
I desperately wanted seekers in both games, but was trying the big deamons army type. Seekers would have been terrific, same as a large squad of friends of slaanesh, the high movement + advance and charge now with the faq changes, slaanesh feels super fast vs khorne which feels stronger in cc, the way it should be.
I normally take large blobs of deamons and not small, 10 man teams, but I liked how that worked out for them. That was an eye opener, will have to keep it that way in the future.
Overall first game I felt I won on a technicality, but second game I felt I won by playing smarter. Are pure deamons trash? I say not from what I saw, but I do think they would really really really benifit from teaming up with space marines. They are like Grey knights. They can be taken by them selves but really you want to either be supporting a different army or getting support from a different army. Each game with the soul grinder all I could keep thinking is "My defiler would do that better and be much cheaper" for example.
I will try to run seekers in 5 man units and fiends in groups of 3, the idea is for the seekers to hit something with the flying deamon princes for support, or hit a different flank to give pressure. The fiends are going for whatever big bad tank is open, lock it down in cc so it can't get away and worry about it later, it's not getting away from the fiends. But only one will probably die to a pot shot.
Again this is just what I want to try, without actual tabletop experience there isn't a way to call it whether it's a good idea or not.
Azuza001 wrote: I will try to run seekers in 5 man units and fiends in groups of 3, the idea is for the seekers to hit something with the flying deamon princes for support, or hit a different flank to give pressure. The fiends are going for whatever big bad tank is open, lock it down in cc so it can't get away and worry about it later, it's not getting away from the fiends. But only one will probably die to a pot shot.
Again this is just what I want to try, without actual tabletop experience there isn't a way to call it whether it's a good idea or not.
Personally I find Fiend units of 3 to be a liability, I much prefer units of 1.
I ran a Vanguard the other day with 3 Fiends and a DP and it performed beyond my expectations. My opponents focused on other threats T1, and the Fiends were able to quickly reach the other side of the board and tie up some tanks T1. I even had a Fiend solo a Predator! It took 3 battle rounds, but was still impressive to see it take down the tank.
Virules wrote: extremely hard to get a kill first turn post-faq, etc. etc. etc.).
The worst was when I deep struck a max unit of bloodletters pre-FAQ T1 and then proceeded to fail my 3D6 Banner of Blood charge. Getting first blood post-FAQ with pure daemons is a dream of mine...
It's doable with slaanesh, did it today. But that's about it, khorne isn't going to be getting that.
OK so I had 2 games today with my pure deamons, first vs Primaris Salamanders and 2nd vs Alaitoc Eldar. I won both games, here are the rundowns
Spoiler:
First game vs Primaris. I took
Battalion
Blood throne w/ crimson crown
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster w/ armor of scorne
3 x 10 man Bloodletter squads
Patrol
Lord of change w/ impossible robe and incoporeal form (warlord)
19 pink horrors
Soul grinder
Batallion
Keeper of secrets
Keeper of secrets
3 x 10 woman deamonettes
My opponent took
2 repulser tanks
3 x 5 man intesessor (spelling?) Squads (basic primaris troop one)
1 x 5 man hellblasters
1 leutinant
3 of the huge dreadnoughts
2 of the bigger dreadnoughts (bigger than normal but not the huge ones)
We played a malestorm mission which I won by a lot of points, but when he called it he had almost tabled me. I killed the 2 medium dreadnoughts and 3 of the 5 hellblasters vs me only having my lord of change, one 10 man Bloodletter squad, and the soulgrinder with 5 wounds left. However the issue was the mission we were playing, he kept drawing defend cards and I was always able to "push" him off an objective or I had it covered and he could not get to it. It felt like a hollow victory, but it was what it was by turn 4.
Things I learned!: Keepers of secrets are super fast BUT die to easily. He targeted them first and had it down to 1 wound before it got a turn, 2nd turn he killed the other one and finished the 1st with just one of the repulsers. Greater deamon of Khorne was a fire magnet for good reason but would have been highly successful if he had not rolled 3 5++ saves when I hit his dreadnought, then he used a stratagem to fight again to finish it off. Need to remember I have that ability too and should have done it first. Lord of change is a monster in cc, but keep it away from t7 enemies, it becomes a much harder fight if you do, I got into cc vs one of the huge dreadnoughts and was not able to wound it, locking us both into a hard to win combat (me wounding him on 5's, him trying to get past the 2++ save). All of my deamon squads were pretty worthless vs his mass armor but I was able to hold multiple objectives a turn thanks to my shear numbers and the troop objective holders special rule, so their value was still there. The blood throne does hit like a mach truck in cc but is too slow to matter really. It crushed a dreadnought, the one that killed the bloodthirster but then just got blown away. Did not care for it. Soulgrinder shooting sucks when you have to move and sucks after it takes wounds. So it looks good but not so much in the effectiveness colum. However it was holding a key objective that my opponent could not get at the end so maybe?
2nd game.
Spoiler:
My list.
Batallion
Deamon prince of Khorne w/ crimson crown and talons
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster w/ armor of scorne
3x 10 man Bloodletter squads
Patrol
Lord of change w/ impossible robe & incoporeal form
18 pink horrors
Soulgrinder
Batallion
Deamon prince of Slaanesh
Deamon prince of Slaanesh with wings
Herald of slaanesh
3 x 10 woman deamonettes
My opponent took
2 hemlock jet fighters
2 fire prisims
2 squads of Rangers, 1 five man and 1 10 man
1 x 10 man guardian squad with a bright lance
2 farseers
A 2 man warlock conclave
A single warlock
2 x Dark Reaper squads, 7 men each, + exarch w/ tempest launcher
Again we played malestorm, with the mission that you get 1 card + a card for every objective you hold. I somehow got first turn getting 3 cards at first. I ran the entire army forward (pink horrors in deep strike) and got one of the Deamon Princes of slaanesh into charge range hitting my opponents guardian squad and wiping them out. I then consolidated into the warlocks which put me on one of his objectives (the one the guardians started on but the warlocks were 4" away from), + I was on 2 in the midfield that I had moved the entire army onto, + 2 that I started on keeping a single bloodletter squad and the soulgrinder on them. His 1st Turn he drew 2 cards, but was only able to actually get one (master the warp one, the other was defend obj 4 which my soul grinder was sitting on in my deployment zone). He unleashed an ungodly amount of psycic enemy and firepower, but I was able to deny the important spells (that's a no to jinx...) and then when he fired I popped the stratagem on my lord of change giving it a 2++ save vs the first volley of dark reapers, which ended up doing 1 wound. After that he focused on other monsters (I would have too , why target the 2++ guy?) Dropping the flying deamon prince to 1 wound, killing the greater deamon of khorn, and wounding the soul grinder to 5 wounds. But he didn't target the little deamons on the objectives. I drew 5 additional cards (heck yes) and took a commanding lead on points. I pushed forward, killed the Rangers in cc, killed one of the farseers, did some wounds to a fire prism, killed an exarch and one of the dark reapers from one squad, and was up 8 to 2. His 2nd turn he tried to fight back, killing the deamon prince of Khorne, putting wounds onto the Lord of change (dropped it to 8), and killed 9 deamonettes in one of the forward squads. But it only got him 1 vp and was no where near enough. My 3rd turn I drew 4 more card's and was going to get another 6 vp easy so we called it. I had 10 deamonettes, 10 Bloodletters, 14 pink horrors, and a deamon prince of slaneesh about to charge one of his reapers and warlock / farseer, my lord of change was slapping a fire prism around like a cat toy, and still had trips hanging out on objectives holding them (Herald on one, soulgrinder on one, 10 bloodletters on one, 10 deamonettes on one, and the pinks were on one in his deployment area).
Things I learned : Sometimes killing the stuff that can kill you isn't the answer. If he would have worked on killing the smaller deamons I would not have been able to control the board like I did. Going Alaitoc did him very very little good since I wasn't shooting anything seriously anyways, and ignoring the hemlocks was important. They are scary, but really they can't grab objectives and If I kill all the ground units they go away, so it worked out perfectly. Same with reapers, those guys seem very scarry but this was the first time I played vs them and really, while they were doing damage, it wasn't all that impressive. Again target priority would have helped him I think, and he did kill the bloodthirster of wrath with them and a fire prism, but I rolled horrible for my 4++ saves on it so what can you do.
Lord of change with incoporeal form and impossible robe is so awesome. I loved how it would not die. Greater deamon of khorn, I think I will keep trying him. Not his fault he got shot, I would shoot him too lol. Deamon princes are definitely better than keepers of secrets. Keepers are slightly tougher but are also easier to kill due to targeting rules. So yeah, keepers are out. Same with soulgrinder. It's too expensive for its job, which I am not sure what that is. I ended up using it both times as an objective camper and it did its job but it also was down to 5 wounds both games and killed nothing. For 235 pts there are much better options.
So over all -
I desperately wanted seekers in both games, but was trying the big deamons army type. Seekers would have been terrific, same as a large squad of friends of slaanesh, the high movement + advance and charge now with the faq changes, slaanesh feels super fast vs khorne which feels stronger in cc, the way it should be.
I normally take large blobs of deamons and not small, 10 man teams, but I liked how that worked out for them. That was an eye opener, will have to keep it that way in the future.
Overall first game I felt I won on a technicality, but second game I felt I won by playing smarter. Are pure deamons trash? I say not from what I saw, but I do think they would really really really benifit from teaming up with space marines. They are like Grey knights. They can be taken by them selves but really you want to either be supporting a different army or getting support from a different army. Each game with the soul grinder all I could keep thinking is "My defiler would do that better and be much cheaper" for example.
But yeah, they were fun games.
Great writeup glad to see some success. I am not sure what happened in game but the way it is written - remember warp surge has to be used at the beginning of the phase not when he declares what he is shooting (i.e. Lightning Fast Reflexes). So the dark reaps know before they even fire who has the ++ bonus. If you used it after he declared shooting this might of changed the way the game played out significantly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/04 13:58:55
Ah, I misread that. I don't think it mattered though, I told him I was popping it either way, I wanted to prevent it from even being targeted. He shot anyways, saw it really wasn't worth the effort, then moved on to killing the bloodthirster.
Something I just realized trying to find a way to put a small detachment of tsons into my list.... Vortex beast does boost tzeench deamons... the wording is target a tzeentch unit, not a tsons unit. That means vortex beasts could really help lords of change in cc become a beast. It's an interesting idea.
Azuza001 wrote: Ah, I misread that. I don't think it mattered though, I told him I was popping it either way, I wanted to prevent it from even being targeted. He shot anyways, saw it really wasn't worth the effort, then moved on to killing the bloodthirster.
Something I just realized trying to find a way to put a small detachment of tsons into my list.... Vortex beast does boost tzeench deamons... the wording is target a tzeentch unit, not a tsons unit. That means vortex beasts could really help lords of change in cc become a beast. It's an interesting idea.
Yeah, I was thinking about that too. Str 5 with Flickering flames on a squad of 20..... Goodbye anything T4, I mean guardsmen, Marines, dark reapers, with a 4++ save for protection. Good lord, that's a lot of firepower. 60 shots from a squad of 20?
Heck even t5 stuff needs to worry as they don't normally get numbers at that point like bikers, they rely on that t5 and medium numbers to live.
Virules wrote: extremely hard to get a kill first turn post-faq, etc. etc. etc.).
The worst was when I deep struck a max unit of bloodletters pre-FAQ T1 and then proceeded to fail my 3D6 Banner of Blood charge. Getting first blood post-FAQ with pure daemons is a dream of mine...
It's doable with slaanesh, did it today. But that's about it, khorne isn't going to be getting that.
OK so I had 2 games today with my pure deamons, first vs Primaris Salamanders and 2nd vs Alaitoc Eldar. I won both games, here are the rundowns
Spoiler:
First game vs Primaris. I took
Battalion
Blood throne w/ crimson crown
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster w/ armor of scorne
3 x 10 man Bloodletter squads
Patrol
Lord of change w/ impossible robe and incoporeal form (warlord)
19 pink horrors
Soul grinder
Batallion
Keeper of secrets
Keeper of secrets
3 x 10 woman deamonettes
My opponent took
2 repulser tanks
3 x 5 man intesessor (spelling?) Squads (basic primaris troop one)
1 x 5 man hellblasters
1 leutinant
3 of the huge dreadnoughts
2 of the bigger dreadnoughts (bigger than normal but not the huge ones)
We played a malestorm mission which I won by a lot of points, but when he called it he had almost tabled me. I killed the 2 medium dreadnoughts and 3 of the 5 hellblasters vs me only having my lord of change, one 10 man Bloodletter squad, and the soulgrinder with 5 wounds left. However the issue was the mission we were playing, he kept drawing defend cards and I was always able to "push" him off an objective or I had it covered and he could not get to it. It felt like a hollow victory, but it was what it was by turn 4.
Things I learned!: Keepers of secrets are super fast BUT die to easily. He targeted them first and had it down to 1 wound before it got a turn, 2nd turn he killed the other one and finished the 1st with just one of the repulsers. Greater deamon of Khorne was a fire magnet for good reason but would have been highly successful if he had not rolled 3 5++ saves when I hit his dreadnought, then he used a stratagem to fight again to finish it off. Need to remember I have that ability too and should have done it first. Lord of change is a monster in cc, but keep it away from t7 enemies, it becomes a much harder fight if you do, I got into cc vs one of the huge dreadnoughts and was not able to wound it, locking us both into a hard to win combat (me wounding him on 5's, him trying to get past the 2++ save). All of my deamon squads were pretty worthless vs his mass armor but I was able to hold multiple objectives a turn thanks to my shear numbers and the troop objective holders special rule, so their value was still there. The blood throne does hit like a mach truck in cc but is too slow to matter really. It crushed a dreadnought, the one that killed the bloodthirster but then just got blown away. Did not care for it. Soulgrinder shooting sucks when you have to move and sucks after it takes wounds. So it looks good but not so much in the effectiveness colum. However it was holding a key objective that my opponent could not get at the end so maybe?
2nd game.
Spoiler:
My list.
Batallion
Deamon prince of Khorne w/ crimson crown and talons
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster w/ armor of scorne
3x 10 man Bloodletter squads
Patrol
Lord of change w/ impossible robe & incoporeal form
18 pink horrors
Soulgrinder
Batallion
Deamon prince of Slaanesh
Deamon prince of Slaanesh with wings
Herald of slaanesh
3 x 10 woman deamonettes
My opponent took
2 hemlock jet fighters
2 fire prisims
2 squads of Rangers, 1 five man and 1 10 man
1 x 10 man guardian squad with a bright lance
2 farseers
A 2 man warlock conclave
A single warlock
2 x Dark Reaper squads, 7 men each, + exarch w/ tempest launcher
Again we played malestorm, with the mission that you get 1 card + a card for every objective you hold. I somehow got first turn getting 3 cards at first. I ran the entire army forward (pink horrors in deep strike) and got one of the Deamon Princes of slaanesh into charge range hitting my opponents guardian squad and wiping them out. I then consolidated into the warlocks which put me on one of his objectives (the one the guardians started on but the warlocks were 4" away from), + I was on 2 in the midfield that I had moved the entire army onto, + 2 that I started on keeping a single bloodletter squad and the soulgrinder on them. His 1st Turn he drew 2 cards, but was only able to actually get one (master the warp one, the other was defend obj 4 which my soul grinder was sitting on in my deployment zone). He unleashed an ungodly amount of psycic enemy and firepower, but I was able to deny the important spells (that's a no to jinx...) and then when he fired I popped the stratagem on my lord of change giving it a 2++ save vs the first volley of dark reapers, which ended up doing 1 wound. After that he focused on other monsters (I would have too , why target the 2++ guy?) Dropping the flying deamon prince to 1 wound, killing the greater deamon of khorn, and wounding the soul grinder to 5 wounds. But he didn't target the little deamons on the objectives. I drew 5 additional cards (heck yes) and took a commanding lead on points. I pushed forward, killed the Rangers in cc, killed one of the farseers, did some wounds to a fire prism, killed an exarch and one of the dark reapers from one squad, and was up 8 to 2. His 2nd turn he tried to fight back, killing the deamon prince of Khorne, putting wounds onto the Lord of change (dropped it to 8), and killed 9 deamonettes in one of the forward squads. But it only got him 1 vp and was no where near enough. My 3rd turn I drew 4 more card's and was going to get another 6 vp easy so we called it. I had 10 deamonettes, 10 Bloodletters, 14 pink horrors, and a deamon prince of slaneesh about to charge one of his reapers and warlock / farseer, my lord of change was slapping a fire prism around like a cat toy, and still had trips hanging out on objectives holding them (Herald on one, soulgrinder on one, 10 bloodletters on one, 10 deamonettes on one, and the pinks were on one in his deployment area).
Things I learned : Sometimes killing the stuff that can kill you isn't the answer. If he would have worked on killing the smaller deamons I would not have been able to control the board like I did. Going Alaitoc did him very very little good since I wasn't shooting anything seriously anyways, and ignoring the hemlocks was important. They are scary, but really they can't grab objectives and If I kill all the ground units they go away, so it worked out perfectly. Same with reapers, those guys seem very scarry but this was the first time I played vs them and really, while they were doing damage, it wasn't all that impressive. Again target priority would have helped him I think, and he did kill the bloodthirster of wrath with them and a fire prism, but I rolled horrible for my 4++ saves on it so what can you do.
Lord of change with incoporeal form and impossible robe is so awesome. I loved how it would not die. Greater deamon of khorn, I think I will keep trying him. Not his fault he got shot, I would shoot him too lol. Deamon princes are definitely better than keepers of secrets. Keepers are slightly tougher but are also easier to kill due to targeting rules. So yeah, keepers are out. Same with soulgrinder. It's too expensive for its job, which I am not sure what that is. I ended up using it both times as an objective camper and it did its job but it also was down to 5 wounds both games and killed nothing. For 235 pts there are much better options.
So over all -
I desperately wanted seekers in both games, but was trying the big deamons army type. Seekers would have been terrific, same as a large squad of friends of slaanesh, the high movement + advance and charge now with the faq changes, slaanesh feels super fast vs khorne which feels stronger in cc, the way it should be.
I normally take large blobs of deamons and not small, 10 man teams, but I liked how that worked out for them. That was an eye opener, will have to keep it that way in the future.
Overall first game I felt I won on a technicality, but second game I felt I won by playing smarter. Are pure deamons trash? I say not from what I saw, but I do think they would really really really benifit from teaming up with space marines. They are like Grey knights. They can be taken by them selves but really you want to either be supporting a different army or getting support from a different army. Each game with the soul grinder all I could keep thinking is "My defiler would do that better and be much cheaper" for example.
But yeah, they were fun games.
Man, awesome write-ups. I look forward to trying out some of your strats. You've given me hope for my Lord of Change. How do you feel about the Bloodthirster? Would you take him again?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: BTW, only 1 greater daemon in a real list in London GT - Skarbrand xD
Curious about how he functioned in that list. If I had to pick up one more Khorne model to try and make mono Khorne daemons work, it'd be Skarbrand. Abaddon with 40 cultists has been pretty fun so far I imagine Skarbrand could be used in a similar way? I wonder which units could benefit most from his fearless bubble. Would definitely make max size bloodletter units survive a few more rounds of shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/04 23:19:02
WindxMill wrote: So I've been doing alot of thinking about how to make Daemons work, because frankly, I don't want to be another codex or start up another army. I dove pretty deep into this dex and I have a few thoughts I'd like to discuss.
Greater Daemons- I think these guys aren't used properly and should actually be a bigger part of daemons game plan. yes I know their point costs are high, but if just 1 of them hits your opponents lines it'll do quite a bit of damage. Im proposing that the army be built around toughness 5-7 models. With that in mind, I think running 2-3 greater Daemons might actually be good as they can all be pretty hard to kill. LoC can be made to have a 3++ with a robe, bloodthirster with an armor of scorn + warp surge can have a 3++, and a GUO with his psychic powers is also hard to take down. I think this style of play will actually make some units in the dex stronger.
Such as...
Burning chariot- These seem quite good to me. I think people were too enamored by the fact that the exalted flamer is a character. I think 30 pts for an added +1t, +4w, +4" move, and +6 s6 attacks seems like a steal. I also think it's quite versatile. A turn 1 with this can be pretty good I feel. You have a 32" threat range against high toughness, or a 26" threat range against infantry. On almost all the deployment zones, you'll be hitting something. So you can run these up the board, shoot a tank, and then charge their screen. The t5 to me is huge as it makes it resilient to anti infantry fire. If you have a couple of these next to a couple of greater daemons, your opponent has to decide where they want their high str weapons to go.
Skull cannons- another high toughness model that is cheap and again, versatile. Daemons are lacking in long range shooting and I feel these are close to auto includes in a mono daemon list. Again, your opponent will basically be forced to deal with your greater Daemons before even looking at these. They hold objectives great also.
Soul Grinders - I hated these guys on paper so much since the release of 8th, but I think there could be a home for them now. Like I said earlier, we need shooting in this army. this provides us with that. While also being another t7 model your opponent has to deal with. mark of tzeentch it you got a 4+ save too.
plague drones - more t5 hard to kill units that are speedy enough to help control the board.
Now I've also been thinking about how to properly field troops. I can't stand big blobs of 30 (unless you're using a bloodletter bomb). with the way the morale rules are, it seems like a gigantic waste of points. I feel MSU is the way to go for infantry. especially if they're going to be around greater Daemons giving them ld 10.
so yeah, idk just a couple thoughts that I'd figured I'd share so we can all discuss.
I feel like I keep coming back to the thread and inserting my side of the force that everyone ignores... lol. Anyway, your proposed idea for Greater Daemons is something I have thought about as well and I find it a more feasible option since I play Mono-Slaanesh. Out of the Greater Daemons the KOS is the least tough and least likely to make it to enemy lines... but it's also the cheapest and gives some breathing room to take multiple KOS. My only issue with this is aesthetics, as I only want one FWKOS and I can't stand the current model. Hopefully a plastic one comes out ASAP.
Chariots was/is something I am already spamming and it's worked out fairly well. Lots of Hellflayers and the Seeker Chariot is fairly cheap. It wasn't the best decision from my opponent but I had an exalted chariot that soaked up a ton of fire and survived since my daemonettes were in combat/out of LOS. It was worth the 100 points it cost as it soaked up way more in firepower that only brought it down to half health. My other chariots that are more useful, like my hellflayers, were ignored for the exalted one.
As for MSU. I've actually had a lot of success with medium sized squads. 24 to be exact. Though to be fair I chose 24 not for some optimization number but because it's divisible by 6. Slaanesh's number. They've done some real work though. If they aren't bothered with because of all the chariots, it's a crap ton of attacks/damage. If they are dealt with, you have to kill a decent amount to get their numbers down but it isn't a big deal because I have 3+ more medium sized squads. And the chariots are then ignored. I consider medium to be from 18-26 btw.
All in all, I've been having a ton of fun and success with my Daemonettes. I had a game a couple weeks ago against my Tzeentch buddy. I beat him on points in a list I was testing a lot of stuff with, with one Herald left lol. My KOS was annihilated by Magnus but I suppose that's to be expected.
As for the other armies, I think you're on the right track. I just don't know them as well since I stick with Mono-Slaanesh.
It's awesome to see slaanesh get some love lol. I've been considering trying some of their chariots and some friends. With no 1st turn ds, I feel like things that move fast are definitely much needed for this army. I hear you so hard on that KoS model, it's so ugly lol how have you been sitting out the one you use?
I assume you're asking how I've been using my KOS? I've tried running her as both Zarak and a regular KOS. Quite frankly the regular KOS is really squishy and unreliable but... the model I have is so cool I can't help but use it. Zarak has been awesome though. I did have success in giving my KOS the title of Warlord and giving her the Celerity trait. My opponent did not expect my KOS to scream up the board at 15" base without advancing. With an advance and a charge she got into combat really quickly along with the Seekers and it worked quite well.
The main issue I have been having is flamers. I seem to roll really lucky when it comes to getting shot at by lascannons and stuff but multiple flamers have been bane and for some reason done a ton of damage to me. I think I've been running the wrong units in first, the DP or KOS would be a better option to eat the flamers.
So yeah basically assume the KOS will drop ASAP and rush her/him/it into combat as fast as you can really. I will say the one advantage to the old model is you can hide the KOS very easily if you have any LOS blocking terrain (which you should). It shouldn't be hard to keep the original model from getting shot if you use the terrain fairly well, IMO.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/05/05 05:13:28
Virules wrote: extremely hard to get a kill first turn post-faq, etc. etc. etc.).
The worst was when I deep struck a max unit of bloodletters pre-FAQ T1 and then proceeded to fail my 3D6 Banner of Blood charge. Getting first blood post-FAQ with pure daemons is a dream of mine...
It's doable with slaanesh, did it today. But that's about it, khorne isn't going to be getting that.
OK so I had 2 games today with my pure deamons, first vs Primaris Salamanders and 2nd vs Alaitoc Eldar. I won both games, here are the rundowns
Spoiler:
First game vs Primaris. I took
Battalion
Blood throne w/ crimson crown
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster w/ armor of scorne
3 x 10 man Bloodletter squads
Patrol
Lord of change w/ impossible robe and incoporeal form (warlord)
19 pink horrors
Soul grinder
Batallion
Keeper of secrets
Keeper of secrets
3 x 10 woman deamonettes
My opponent took
2 repulser tanks
3 x 5 man intesessor (spelling?) Squads (basic primaris troop one)
1 x 5 man hellblasters
1 leutinant
3 of the huge dreadnoughts
2 of the bigger dreadnoughts (bigger than normal but not the huge ones)
We played a malestorm mission which I won by a lot of points, but when he called it he had almost tabled me. I killed the 2 medium dreadnoughts and 3 of the 5 hellblasters vs me only having my lord of change, one 10 man Bloodletter squad, and the soulgrinder with 5 wounds left. However the issue was the mission we were playing, he kept drawing defend cards and I was always able to "push" him off an objective or I had it covered and he could not get to it. It felt like a hollow victory, but it was what it was by turn 4.
Things I learned!: Keepers of secrets are super fast BUT die to easily. He targeted them first and had it down to 1 wound before it got a turn, 2nd turn he killed the other one and finished the 1st with just one of the repulsers. Greater deamon of Khorne was a fire magnet for good reason but would have been highly successful if he had not rolled 3 5++ saves when I hit his dreadnought, then he used a stratagem to fight again to finish it off. Need to remember I have that ability too and should have done it first. Lord of change is a monster in cc, but keep it away from t7 enemies, it becomes a much harder fight if you do, I got into cc vs one of the huge dreadnoughts and was not able to wound it, locking us both into a hard to win combat (me wounding him on 5's, him trying to get past the 2++ save). All of my deamon squads were pretty worthless vs his mass armor but I was able to hold multiple objectives a turn thanks to my shear numbers and the troop objective holders special rule, so their value was still there. The blood throne does hit like a mach truck in cc but is too slow to matter really. It crushed a dreadnought, the one that killed the bloodthirster but then just got blown away. Did not care for it. Soulgrinder shooting sucks when you have to move and sucks after it takes wounds. So it looks good but not so much in the effectiveness colum. However it was holding a key objective that my opponent could not get at the end so maybe?
2nd game.
Spoiler:
My list.
Batallion
Deamon prince of Khorne w/ crimson crown and talons
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster w/ armor of scorne
3x 10 man Bloodletter squads
Patrol
Lord of change w/ impossible robe & incoporeal form
18 pink horrors
Soulgrinder
Batallion
Deamon prince of Slaanesh
Deamon prince of Slaanesh with wings
Herald of slaanesh
3 x 10 woman deamonettes
My opponent took
2 hemlock jet fighters
2 fire prisims
2 squads of Rangers, 1 five man and 1 10 man
1 x 10 man guardian squad with a bright lance
2 farseers
A 2 man warlock conclave
A single warlock
2 x Dark Reaper squads, 7 men each, + exarch w/ tempest launcher
Again we played malestorm, with the mission that you get 1 card + a card for every objective you hold. I somehow got first turn getting 3 cards at first. I ran the entire army forward (pink horrors in deep strike) and got one of the Deamon Princes of slaanesh into charge range hitting my opponents guardian squad and wiping them out. I then consolidated into the warlocks which put me on one of his objectives (the one the guardians started on but the warlocks were 4" away from), + I was on 2 in the midfield that I had moved the entire army onto, + 2 that I started on keeping a single bloodletter squad and the soulgrinder on them. His 1st Turn he drew 2 cards, but was only able to actually get one (master the warp one, the other was defend obj 4 which my soul grinder was sitting on in my deployment zone). He unleashed an ungodly amount of psycic enemy and firepower, but I was able to deny the important spells (that's a no to jinx...) and then when he fired I popped the stratagem on my lord of change giving it a 2++ save vs the first volley of dark reapers, which ended up doing 1 wound. After that he focused on other monsters (I would have too , why target the 2++ guy?) Dropping the flying deamon prince to 1 wound, killing the greater deamon of khorn, and wounding the soul grinder to 5 wounds. But he didn't target the little deamons on the objectives. I drew 5 additional cards (heck yes) and took a commanding lead on points. I pushed forward, killed the Rangers in cc, killed one of the farseers, did some wounds to a fire prism, killed an exarch and one of the dark reapers from one squad, and was up 8 to 2. His 2nd turn he tried to fight back, killing the deamon prince of Khorne, putting wounds onto the Lord of change (dropped it to 8), and killed 9 deamonettes in one of the forward squads. But it only got him 1 vp and was no where near enough. My 3rd turn I drew 4 more card's and was going to get another 6 vp easy so we called it. I had 10 deamonettes, 10 Bloodletters, 14 pink horrors, and a deamon prince of slaneesh about to charge one of his reapers and warlock / farseer, my lord of change was slapping a fire prism around like a cat toy, and still had trips hanging out on objectives holding them (Herald on one, soulgrinder on one, 10 bloodletters on one, 10 deamonettes on one, and the pinks were on one in his deployment area).
Things I learned : Sometimes killing the stuff that can kill you isn't the answer. If he would have worked on killing the smaller deamons I would not have been able to control the board like I did. Going Alaitoc did him very very little good since I wasn't shooting anything seriously anyways, and ignoring the hemlocks was important. They are scary, but really they can't grab objectives and If I kill all the ground units they go away, so it worked out perfectly. Same with reapers, those guys seem very scarry but this was the first time I played vs them and really, while they were doing damage, it wasn't all that impressive. Again target priority would have helped him I think, and he did kill the bloodthirster of wrath with them and a fire prism, but I rolled horrible for my 4++ saves on it so what can you do.
Lord of change with incoporeal form and impossible robe is so awesome. I loved how it would not die. Greater deamon of khorn, I think I will keep trying him. Not his fault he got shot, I would shoot him too lol. Deamon princes are definitely better than keepers of secrets. Keepers are slightly tougher but are also easier to kill due to targeting rules. So yeah, keepers are out. Same with soulgrinder. It's too expensive for its job, which I am not sure what that is. I ended up using it both times as an objective camper and it did its job but it also was down to 5 wounds both games and killed nothing. For 235 pts there are much better options.
So over all -
I desperately wanted seekers in both games, but was trying the big deamons army type. Seekers would have been terrific, same as a large squad of friends of slaanesh, the high movement + advance and charge now with the faq changes, slaanesh feels super fast vs khorne which feels stronger in cc, the way it should be.
I normally take large blobs of deamons and not small, 10 man teams, but I liked how that worked out for them. That was an eye opener, will have to keep it that way in the future.
Overall first game I felt I won on a technicality, but second game I felt I won by playing smarter. Are pure deamons trash? I say not from what I saw, but I do think they would really really really benifit from teaming up with space marines. They are like Grey knights. They can be taken by them selves but really you want to either be supporting a different army or getting support from a different army. Each game with the soul grinder all I could keep thinking is "My defiler would do that better and be much cheaper" for example.
But yeah, they were fun games.
Man, awesome write-ups. I look forward to trying out some of your strats. You've given me hope for my Lord of Change. How do you feel about the Bloodthirster? Would you take him again?
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rvd1ofakind wrote: BTW, only 1 greater daemon in a real list in London GT - Skarbrand xD
Curious about how he functioned in that list. If I had to pick up one more Khorne model to try and make mono Khorne daemons work, it'd be Skarbrand. Abaddon with 40 cultists has been pretty fun so far I imagine Skarbrand could be used in a similar way? I wonder which units could benefit most from his fearless bubble. Would definitely make max size bloodletter units survive a few more rounds of shooting.
Yeah I will take him again. It's not his fault he didn't make it into combat. First game my opponent made 3 of his 4 5++ saves. Second game I failed 6 of 8 4++ saves, it happens. It's an interesting thought too, what would your opponent prefer to shoot at? Pop the ++ stratagem on the bloodthirster and give them the choice of 3++ bloodthirster or 3++ Lord of change with -1 to damage taken?
What I would love to try is fateweaver, but I don't have the model so eh...
But yeah, if your looking at tzeentch deamons I have an all new appreciation for tzeentch deaomons and tsons. Mutalith vortex beast really can boost almost anything from the tzeentch deamon army and make it silly awesome.
Flamers with strength 5 auto hits? Str 7 ap-3 attacks from screamers? Not to mention the pink horrors + flickering flames next to a Herald, oh that's wounding marines on a 2. I mean.... damn...
All this talk of tzeentch daemons is pretty nice to see. I pulled my tzeentch stuff out to get pics for selling, honestly I haven't used them in 8th yet. Shouldnt sell before I even put them on the table!
gwarsh41 wrote: All this talk of tzeentch daemons is pretty nice to see. I pulled my tzeentch stuff out to get pics for selling, honestly I haven't used them in 8th yet. Shouldnt sell before I even put them on the table!
Agreed! Tzeentch this edition is an unexpected treat. Nurgle has gotten a lot of love and khorne is just as strong as ever, but tzeentch has such a tricky design that when you start seeing the synergy you really can see it coming together.
I have been having limited success with slaanesh as well, but that could be because no one plays them do when they see them they don't know what to expect and with the turn one nerf to ds their speed really comes into it's own.
My issue is i want slaanesh in one detachment, tzeentch deamons as warlord, and tsons as a 3rd for range support (arhiman, 2 defilers, and a vortex beast) so there is no place for my khorne deamons.
Yes, Tzeetch demons have lots of trick, especially when combined with 1K sons. Boosting a big unit of Horrors to Str5 is great for shooting and also makes them a thread in combat, expailly if you manage to get +1 A from Boon. Made a great time the other day, a max unit of pinkies shooting down 3 units of cultists (40 models) then charging a pair of dreadnoughts and tearing them down over 3 rounds of combat . I was only expecting to ty them up, but 60+ (splitting) attacks takes it's toll.
I also love lasher fiends with a Tzeetch herald, make them absolutely decimate armour.
Yeah Tzeentch Daemons are good I think. Have limited playtime so can’t say much. But! All at my club have been underestimated 2 units of 30 pinks buffed up by herald and reroll 1 to hit DP + Daemonspark reroll 1 to W. If you cast +1 to W you will kill a lot of stuff. And making one unit 3++ and use a little bit of points to the other for splitting then they will survive.
Adding some CSM obliterators in the bubble of reroll makes it even worse for the opponent.
1DP
1 Herald
60 pinks
20 brims
CSM 1Sorc or 1 DP 3x3 obliterators
Then still something like 500 points for something.
It’s crazy good and I recommend using it.
TSons Supreme Command
Prince Crystal
Prince Helm
Prince
Ahriman on Disc
Rhino havoc melta
Rhino havoc melta
A few points for splits on the larger unit.
The Rhinos will screen the characters T1. The LoC will Surge in enemy shooting to survive. The Pinks and Tzerald will drop T2.
I’m still getting used to how to use DPs. Incredibly killy...but also fairly fragile if they are positioned poorly.
I could drop the meltas on Rhinos and get a few mode Blues or Pinks...
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
Elric Greywolf wrote: TSons Supreme Command
Prince Crystal
Prince Helm
Prince
Ahriman on Disc
Rhino havoc melta
Rhino havoc melta
I would drop the Helm. You're paying 2CP for it, it's a huge tax and probably not worth it unless your opponent has tons of CP and uses them 1 by 1.
Havoc launcher is also pointless on Rhinos. They will move or be destroyed quickly, don't bother. Meltas might be useful, but I'd recommend taking 2 Stormbolters instead (4pts for 4-8 S4 shots is a steal).
The Helm actually only costs 1pt. DP with Crystal is WL, for a 3++, so 1CP for an extra TSons relic, and then 1CP for the Robes. It’s nearly guaranteed to make back 1CP, and everything after the first one is pure profit!
The Rhinos help clear screens so that the Horrors can have a good position, so yeah I think 2 combibolts rather than the melta is a good idea. But the havoc launchers also help in clearing screens, so I like them.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
@Elric Greywolf - I’d definitely downgrade the Rhino armament, and second the quad boltgun loadout. I’d actually consider using the difference to put that Herald on a Disc - LoC with Robes is hella tough, but if it’s your only mobile Tzeentch Daemon Character, then taking it out will deny the opportunity to use the re-roll casting strat on the TSons contingent. Also makes it easier to evacuate it away from an enemy incursion aiming to get ‘kill characters’ VPs. A decent 21pt safety net.
I’d also consider trying to afford an Icon for the other Pinks unit. When it works, it’s a great psychological blow, and if your unit weathers three turns of shooting then it usually makes its points back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
devk88 wrote: Out of curiosity does epidemius and poxbringer buff the rot fly attacks of plague drones to have +1 strength making them strength 5?
Sadly not, it’s a weapon with fixed strength on its profile
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 19:08:44
I heard that Warp Talons are now Raptors with LCs since their ability is now infinitely USELESS and they now have an 100% chance they'll get shot down completely cuz of NO WARPTIME AFTER DEPLOYMENT!
Ways to use Warp Talons:
- Warptime up the board, perhaps as a niche Epidemius opener, perhaps as a niche Fury of Khorne decapitation strike against support characters or tagging of heavy gunners without FLY, both doing it best as Renegades for 2D6 more reach (though World Eaters are pretty good at the latter)
- MSU arrival on turn two around a Locus of Rage; each unit has nearly a 50-50 chance of executing a charge, more if you use a command re-roll on a 6-1. Again, niche counter to things like aggressors when you’re going banzai charge (which you don’t need to do, because your bloodletter bomb doesn’t care about 8” anti-charge weapons)
- open play without army budgets
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/10 22:57:19
Played a casual game vs 2 new-ish players. GUO died turn 1 after they shot half their weapons and I rolled really well on invults. /clap
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casdark wrote: Hi, i would start a daemons army, but i'm confused. Can someone suggest me some generic competitive army list?
Post FAQ daemons are now in a place where as a main army they can't win highly competitive games, period. Daemons are now supporting cast for CSM and the like.
The only exception is Nurgle daemons, that can run the tri-herald combo + 2-3 blobs of 30 plaguebearers, plague drones, epidemius, tree.
The best ranked player (21st) bringing pure daemons is bringing this:
rvd1ofakind wrote: Played a casual game vs 2 new-ish players. GUO died turn 1 after they shot half their weapons and I rolled really well on invults. /clap
Automatically Appended Next Post:
casdark wrote: Hi, i would start a daemons army, but i'm confused. Can someone suggest me some generic competitive army list?
Post FAQ daemons are now in a place where as a main army they can't win highly competitive games, period. Daemons are now supporting cast for CSM and the like.
The only exception is Nurgle daemons, that can run the tri-herald combo + 2-3 blobs of 30 plaguebearers, plague drones, epidemius, tree.
The best ranked player (21st) bringing pure daemons is bringing this:
8500
1500
2000
5000
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
