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BTW looking at Win-Loss ratios we seem to be in a very very good place at the moment. Nice! Hopefully the nerfbat doesn't hit too hard

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730601.page

LegendaryEgo05 wrote:
I am contemplating wolf guard terminators with a cheap load out of storm bolted/power sword deepstriking in with arjac. I feel like this unit is a good jack of all trades unit that can strike in shoot and be good at combat when dealing with hordes. Is this a good idea or is it better to take Ss/th?

I like the cheap Terminators although I would probably throw 1 AC/PF dude in there for a little extra punch and firepower.

I am not so sure about Arjac though. He is absolutely rock hard and costs only about 10 points more than a similarly equipped WGBL for which you get his +1A bubble and a TH that can be thrown and does not have the -1 to Hit. However because his boost work best in assault, he really needs to get there reliably with a squad that will benefit from the extra punch.

I would use the cheap tactical TDA squad to drop in and hose targets. With Arjac I would run a full TH/SS squad in a Land Raider Crusader with a Wolf Priest to reroll misses and heal injured models. This is a ton of points but a Land Raider is almost guaranteed to get the squad where they are going and Arjac and his Shield Brothers can easily demolish a Knight in a single round of combat while the LRC can blast through hordes faster than a vindaloo through a short granny.

You could switch to a Vanguard Detachment and a Supreme Command Detachment as that should give you adequate Elite and HQ slots as well as a Superheavy slot for your knight. Then you have 2 heavy slots for the LRC and Predator, 2 FA slots for the TWC and a few Troop slots if you want some cheap Claws/Hunters to make up the numbers.

I should've stated my internet. I do want to deep strike them but I am not intending to go straight for the charge. Just stand back and shoot until I have a high success charge roll. They have the attacks to chew through bodies if needed, and if they get charged. (Autocannon prob belongs in the squad)

I like the idea of two units but only have one at the moment, the LRC also worries me. If it gets charged and gummed up you spend a turn fleeing to get to attack next turn and that's an expensive model if it gets negated. I still need to try one this ed. I was high on the redeemer but found it wasn't as good as I thought.

Sounds like you need to keep a high mobility, high survivability unit nearby to act as a sacrificial/bodyguard unit.

Something that you can attack the offending unit with after it's backed out of combat and expect to survive until your opponent's melee phase - my recommendation would be offing the Predator for another unit of TWC or Wolf Guard Bikers - melee/shootie Dreads could be the answer as well.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
For me the strength of arjac doesnt mesh too well with the unreliability of deep striking 9" assaults. He is expensive if it doesn't work.

I'd almost want to either make sure ragnar is around to help that charge roll (perhaps in a pod, or moved up in a rhino and drop the termies turn 2?), or maybe have arjac drop in to buff some wolf guard that just got out of a transport? Idk i just dont love them all deep striking in.

If you don't mind deepstriking him into their faces rather than on their asses Wulfen could be your answer. Over a twenty four inch no man's land you have a seven inch move, one to six inch advance and a six inch bubble gives you thirteen to eighteen inches to tag the back of Arjac and his boys, effectively a two inch possible failure range if the advance roll doesn't go your way and that can be negged out by a conga-line.

Ah yes, this is clearly the best way to make this happen.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
For me the strength of arjac doesnt mesh too well with the unreliability of deep striking 9" assaults. He is expensive if it doesn't work.

If you don't mind deepstriking him into their faces rather than on their asses Wulfen could be your answer. Over a twenty four inch no man's land you have a seven inch move, one to six inch advance and a six inch bubble gives you thirteen to eighteen inches to tag the back of Arjac and his boys, effectively a two inch possible failure range if the advance roll doesn't go your way and that can be negged out by a conga-line.

Even with a reroll, that is only just over a 50% chance of making the charge. If I were using Wulfen in this way, I would probably want to do it with several cheap squads rather than one expensive unit. Am I right in thinking that characters make their charge roll separately from the unit now? That could be awkward.

 Karhedron wrote:

LegendaryEgo05 wrote:
I am contemplating wolf guard terminators with a cheap load out of storm bolted/power sword deepstriking in with arjac. I feel like this unit is a good jack of all trades unit that can strike in shoot and be good at combat when dealing with hordes. Is this a good idea or is it better to take Ss/th?

I like the cheap Terminators although I would probably throw 1 AC/PF dude in there for a little extra punch and firepower.

I'd go with thunder hammers over fists, same points cost for a guaranteed 3 damage vs d3.

Just played a couple of games at 1500, a few observations (or rather notes to self):

1) The LRC is a beast, the amount of dakka is just epic. However don't let your LRC get charged by anything, that's a lot of dakka shut down for at least one shooting phase (because the LRC is not going to kill anything in CC)
2) Shield dreads are awesome if your 3++ throwing arm is well developed. However mortal wounds are very much a thing and they are a prime target. Psychic defense might help but I don't think the odds of denying any spells are that high tbh.
3) Terminators are more durable than they used to be, but they are still not super tanky. Volume of fire/hits are still taking them down easy enough. Arjac is a beast though.
4) Don't focus too much on CC units, you need some good dakka to go with it. A mobile army like Eldar are just going to kite you all day long and every turn spent outside of CC is just zero damage. Bring Lascannons.
5) Kill all Hemlock Wraithfighters QUICKLY with said Lascannons.
6) Oh, and never ever use supercharged plasma unless you can reroll ones. It's not worth it.

My list was very elite, 3 Venerable Dreads (2 sword+board, 1 dakka variant), Bjorn and and LRC with an assortment of Terminators including Arjac. Definitely going to work on the list.

 Weazel wrote:
6) Oh, and never ever use supercharged plasma unless you can reroll ones. It's not worth it.

Long Fangs can reroll 1s vs 1 target per turn. Most other units require a Captain-equiv babysitter to do this. Long Fangs with plasma cannons rock!

A unit of Hellblasters marching up the board with Bjorn can also reroll 1s to hit. Add a cheap WGBL and they can reroll 1s to wound as well. Very tasty!

 Karhedron wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
For me the strength of arjac doesnt mesh too well with the unreliability of deep striking 9" assaults. He is expensive if it doesn't work.

If you don't mind deepstriking him into their faces rather than on their asses Wulfen could be your answer. Over a twenty four inch no man's land you have a seven inch move, one to six inch advance and a six inch bubble gives you thirteen to eighteen inches to tag the back of Arjac and his boys, effectively a two inch possible failure range if the advance roll doesn't go your way and that can be negged out by a conga-line.

Even with a reroll, that is only just over a 50% chance of making the charge. If I were using Wulfen in this way, I would probably want to do it with several cheap squads rather than one expensive unit. Am I right in thinking that characters make their charge roll separately from the unit now? That could be awkward.

I'm afraid I got nothing else I can think of.
Best I can offer is if you've got Command Points to burn it ups your chances because you can choose between the Wulfen boost of rolling both dice and the Command Point to roll just the single lower dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weazel wrote:
Just played a couple of games at 1500, a few observations (or rather notes to self):

1) The LRC is a beast, the amount of dakka is just epic. However don't let your LRC get charged by anything, that's a lot of dakka shut down for at least one shooting phase (because the LRC is not going to kill anything in CC)

Babysit them.
Babysit the Land-Raider with Bjorn.
Actually I'm going to be an idiot and say babysit them with Santa Clawz on his sleigh, he travels at the same pace, is a monster in melee and lets the Land Raider re-roll failed to hits in shooting and melee.

2) Shield dreads are awesome if your 3++ throwing arm is well developed. However mortal wounds are very much a thing and they are a prime target. Psychic defense might help but I don't think the odds of denying any spells are that high tbh.

Iron Priests. If you're packing three Dreads to make a wall pack two Iron Priests on Bikes. Don't bother with psychic defences, fix those Dreads!

3) Terminators are more durable than they used to be, but they are still not super tanky. Volume of fire/hits are still taking them down easy enough. Arjac is a beast though.

I don't use mine for tanking as such, when I use Termies I save them for an opening and drop them on enemy objectives.

4) Don't focus too much on CC units, you need some good dakka to go with it. A mobile army like Eldar are just going to kite you all day long and every turn spent outside of CC is just zero damage. Bring Lascannons.

You've got Termies, Bikes or fully-loaded Land-Raiders you're already carrying enough to deal with Eldar. No matter how agile they are Eldar hate Storm Bolters. Further, put the Termies behind their lines as soon as they launch farward.

5) Kill all Hemlock Wraithfighters QUICKLY with said Lascannons.

Ah, vehicle hate. They still won't appreciate having the Termies behind them. "There's no replacement for displacement". Yeah, yeah. I know that quote is about cubic capacity but it's a good tactical point too.

6) Oh, and never ever use supercharged plasma unless you can reroll ones. It's not worth it.

No comment - I never liked Plasma in 7th but for some reason I insist on taking it and finding reasons to overcharge it in 8th .

My list was very elite, 3 Venerable Dreads (2 sword+board, 1 dakka variant), Bjorn and and LRC with an assortment of Terminators including Arjac. Definitely going to work on the list.

Need clarification on Arjac's Champion of the Kingsguard rule. Is the bonus attack rule part of fighting in a challenge or does he just get +1A for every WG model within 6" of him? If that's the case he can easily go over 10 attacks in most combats. Even if it doesn't he should be able to kill basically anything with the CHARACTER tag on the charge with a squad of regular wolf guard or TDAWG

 More Dakka wrote:
Need clarification on Arjac's Champion of the Kingsguard rule. Is the bonus attack rule part of fighting in a challenge or does he just get +1A for every WG model within 6" of him? If that's the case he can easily go over 10 attacks in most combats. Even if it doesn't he should be able to kill basically anything with the CHARACTER tag on the charge with a squad of regular wolf guard or TDAWG

The FAQ clarified this to state that Arjac adds 1 to the Attack characteristic of each Wolf Guard unit within six inches. Arjac himself does not get +1 Attack for each Wolf Guard model. He would get +1 Attack for being a Wolf Guard model.

 More Dakka wrote:
Need clarification on Arjac's Champion of the Kingsguard rule. Is the bonus attack rule part of fighting in a challenge or does he just get +1A for every WG model within 6" of him? If that's the case he can easily go over 10 attacks in most combats. Even if it doesn't he should be able to kill basically anything with the CHARACTER tag on the charge with a squad of regular wolf guard or TDAWG

Neither. The FAQ clarifies the intent. Wolf Guard units within 6" of Arjac have +1A added to their profile. (That includes Arjac as he's Wolf Guard and his Aura doesn't explicitly deny him the effect)

Oh they FAQ'd to units not models, gotcha. Seemed too good to be true (working off Battlescribe too since they've been sold out of the index for a while near me)

Here's a link to the FAQ: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Rules-Errata

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
Need clarification on Arjac's Champion of the Kingsguard rule. Is the bonus attack rule part of fighting in a challenge or does he just get +1A for every WG model within 6" of him? If that's the case he can easily go over 10 attacks in most combats. Even if it doesn't he should be able to kill basically anything with the CHARACTER tag on the charge with a squad of regular wolf guard or TDAWG

Neither. The FAQ clarifies the intent. Wolf Guard units within 6" of Arjac have +1A added to their profile. (That includes Arjac as he's Wolf Guard and his Aura doesn't explicitly deny him the effect)

Need Arjak and Wulfen in aura range.
Stack those extra attacks like your models depend on them!!!

By the by.
Who else was mortified by the Wolf Standard's new profile?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
Need clarification on Arjac's Champion of the Kingsguard rule. Is the bonus attack rule part of fighting in a challenge or does he just get +1A for every WG model within 6" of him? If that's the case he can easily go over 10 attacks in most combats. Even if it doesn't he should be able to kill basically anything with the CHARACTER tag on the charge with a squad of regular wolf guard or TDAWG

Neither. The FAQ clarifies the intent. Wolf Guard units within 6" of Arjac have +1A added to their profile. (That includes Arjac as he's Wolf Guard and his Aura doesn't explicitly deny him the effect)

Need Arjak and Wulfen in aura range.
Stack those extra attacks like your models depend on them!!!

By the by.
Who else was mortified by the Wolf Standard's new profile?

Why are you mortified by it?

ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
Need clarification on Arjac's Champion of the Kingsguard rule. Is the bonus attack rule part of fighting in a challenge or does he just get +1A for every WG model within 6" of him? If that's the case he can easily go over 10 attacks in most combats. Even if it doesn't he should be able to kill basically anything with the CHARACTER tag on the charge with a squad of regular wolf guard or TDAWG

Neither. The FAQ clarifies the intent. Wolf Guard units within 6" of Arjac have +1A added to their profile. (That includes Arjac as he's Wolf Guard and his Aura doesn't explicitly deny him the effect)

Need Arjak and Wulfen in aura range.
Stack those extra attacks like your models depend on them!!!

By the by.
Who else was mortified by the Wolf Standard's new profile?

Why are you mortified by it?

Ten points to re-roll one dice in a failed charge and only for the unit carrying it? I want my six inch bubble of extra attacks.

I did not used it last edition and now it is the same/similar like it was in 5th
Let the Grey Hunters be more a unit on their own that need not to stick near Wulfen for 10 points.
I take it

It's not a bad upgrade. 10 points of insurance in case your whiff your charge rolls sounds OK to me.

Only lets you re-roll ones, mind you. It's not bad for 10 points but probably not a must pick either.

The last edition only one could be taken per army and cost twenty five points but it granted one extra attack to any friendly Space Wolves model within a unit twelve inches or less from the bearer.
I'd rather the standard grants extra attacks, even if they were just within the unit.
Extra attacks are worth their weight in gold.

what do the extra attack help if fail your Charge because of a double 1?

Well it would probably be a must pick (and way OP) if it remained the same as before. Orks have a +1A bubble but it's only 6" and costs like 50 points or so.

Not saying that I would mind having a +1A bubble but even at 25 points per pack it might be verging on a must pick.

It's not great, but it's not terrible either. You can't really compare it to older editions, and if we are, i prefer 5th ed where every squad could take one and it let them reroll 1s when they fought or whatever.

That being said, it still makes them better at charging than x % of the other units in the game, so that's something. It's too bad it's basically a cappy khorne icon for the same price, though.

 Weazel wrote:
Well it would probably be a must pick (and way OP) if it remained the same as before. Orks have a +1A bubble but it's only 6" and costs like 50 points or so.

Not saying that I would mind having a +1A bubble but even at 25 points per pack it might be verging on a must pick.

The waaagh banner nob costs 79 points stock and can't be upgraded with other stuff. But the 6'' bubble means that even 3 mobs of 30 can be easily in range to get the benefit. +1A to 90 orks is huge (a mob of 30 boyz gets 120 attacks hitting on 3s this way, granting an average of 90 hits, and with a weirdboy and ghaz they can even get 2 other more attacks per model eventually), even if one of the mobs must stay behind the other two units. Not to mention that it can affect characters with p.klaws too.

What have you guys been using for anti-flyer duties? Originally, I was thinking of using one of our own flyers but then I noticed that they're not any better at shooting at flyers than ground units are.

Possibilities are including allies to gain access to stalkers or stormhawks. What solutions does our own list have? Maybe a unit of jump pack wolf guard with a thunder hammer and frost swords?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

I don't think that you need dedicated AA. Sure, less of your Long Fangs/predators hit them, but you usually wound on 3+ and deny them their save, so who cares.

Ragnar69 wrote:
I don't think that you need dedicated AA. Sure, less of your Long Fangs/predators hit them, but you usually wound on 3+ and deny them their save, so who cares.

Agreed. Just shoot them down with long fangs/predators/razorbacks.

If you don't have any of those units you are probably screwed.

 kodos wrote:
what do the extra attack help if fail your Charge because of a double 1?

If you roll a double one chances are good a single dice re-roll isn't going to help you much either.
However, if something else gets a successful charge the extra attacks aura might help them, the current Standard is not an aura and has minimal use.