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Waaaghpower wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

Well maybe that's an oversight, they are Wolf GUARD after all so it is indeed weird they don't have any means of GUARDING characters.

Because Wolf Guard act as troop leaders or second in command
it is correct and "fluffy" that they don't have that rule

Don't care if it's fluffy. It makes Wolf Guard explicitly worse than their equivalent Space Marine unit, for the same points cost.

The whole point of a Wolf Guard is to protect their Lord so how is it fluffy not to have a guard rule. The only reason is that Space Marines must be the best at all costs.

 Weazel wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'm especially annoyed by the nerf to Wolf Guard because it makes us explicitly worse than Company Veterans. Pre-nerf, for the same points cost, we lost the Bodyguard rule but gained an extra weapon. Now, it's just... Nada. Nothing. You get nothing.

Well maybe that's an oversight, they are Wolf GUARD after all so it is indeed weird they don't have any means of GUARDING characters. Maybe we'll get something related to bodyguard whenever the Codex hits. A straight up 2+ Look Out Sir would be more convenient than the constant bubblewrapping of characters. Not as an universal rule of course but for select units.

Depending on the fluff the term Wolf Guard could be the oversight.
Outside the codex they're referred to as Shield Brothers, Iron Brothers and Huskjarl.
Still, we do cough up an extra point for the ability to take an extra "free" weapon just like the Grey Hunters do.

Ragnar69 wrote:
Anyone else concerned about the cut of options in the SM dex? We might easily lose IPs on wolves and IPs/WPs/RPs on bike...

I think GW explicitly said that some units will continue to use their Index entries if they aren't in the actual codex. I assume that applies to Space Wolves and other armies as well when their respective dexes drop.

Yeah, if it is in the index it is still usable. Also, I think the SW codex is far enough out they will want to release a unit or two with it, so maybe we will get a few of the missing models...but in general yes, from now on GW is mostly going to have the options in the codex be the options in the plastic kits. We'll be able to use the models for a while though, at least until the next time they redo the indexes, i imagine.

I posted a list in the Army Lists subforum: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/734036.page
I'm open to any helpful advice with it, as most of the models are not yet built.

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, if it is in the index it is still usable. Also, I think the SW codex is far enough out they will want to release a unit or two with it, so maybe we will get a few of the missing models...but in general yes, from now on GW is mostly going to have the options in the codex be the options in the plastic kits. We'll be able to use the models for a while though, at least until the next time they redo the indexes, i imagine.

It's sad. On one hand it's some times annoying that they don't have certain characters on bikes as official models, but on the other hand it's nice to convert those how you see fit. Overall character and unit customization is one of 40k's and especially one of Space Wolves' strengths so it will be really sad if for example Krom Dragongaze kit or some other kit becomes the default Wolf Lord kit with only those options available that are on the sprue.

Fortunately there are a lot of wolfy bits on the "default" sprues and even an upgrade sprue available so I don't really feel that they would drastically limit the options... but we'll see.

GW operates on a strict No Model, No Rule policy due to the Chapter House lawsuits. We're lucky we got ANY legacy options in the indexes to begin with. All we can hope is that they release official boxes for things like Veteran Bikers and have a datasheet included.

 Weazel wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, if it is in the index it is still usable. Also, I think the SW codex is far enough out they will want to release a unit or two with it, so maybe we will get a few of the missing models...but in general yes, from now on GW is mostly going to have the options in the codex be the options in the plastic kits. We'll be able to use the models for a while though, at least until the next time they redo the indexes, i imagine.

It's sad. On one hand it's some times annoying that they don't have certain characters on bikes as official models, but on the other hand it's nice to convert those how you see fit. Overall character and unit customization is one of 40k's and especially one of Space Wolves' strengths so it will be really sad if for example Krom Dragongaze kit or some other kit becomes the default Wolf Lord kit with only those options available that are on the sprue.

Fortunately there are a lot of wolfy bits on the "default" sprues and even an upgrade sprue available so I don't really feel that they would drastically limit the options... but we'll see.

They offed the named bike/jump Wolf Lord on Cadia. Never even got a model, and his sacrifice was effectively irrelevant.
Me, I want to see Lukas with a Jump Pack.

So, I got my arse handed to me by my friend's Nurgle Daemons. Incidentally I have usually beaten him more often than not but his current list is hard.

Basically he has TWO identical contingents:
1 Great Unclean One
2 Deamon Princes of Nurgle
1 Herald
20 Plaguebearers as bubblewrap

He also runs 20 Furies (fast) and a small group of Nurglings.

Everything in his army has 5++/5+++ so statistically about the equivalent of Storm Shields across the board and he rolls saves like a fething GOD I swear.

Bringing tough elites is not going to cut it because 8 characters throwing Smite around are just going to melt anything that comes too close. Add to that the Princes and GUOs are formidable CC combatants that blow anything I bring out of the water in melee.

Kinda out of ideas. I was thinking of going full horde mode and feed "cheap" marines to his Smites instead of Terminators, but don't know if I have enough firepower to bring enough of his army down before he touches my lines. You might think that 20 Plaguebearers and maybe even one GUO is easy to take down in a turn of shooting but man, you would be so wrong.

What would you bring if you tailored a list against that?

 Weazel wrote:
So, I got my arse handed to me by my friend's Nurgle Daemons. Incidentally I have usually beaten him more often than not but his current list is hard.

Basically he has TWO identical contingents:
1 Great Unclean One
2 Deamon Princes of Nurgle
1 Herald
20 Plaguebearers as bubblewrap

He also runs 20 Furies (fast) and a small group of Nurglings.

Everything in his army has 5++/5+++ so statistically about the equivalent of Storm Shields across the board and he rolls saves like a fething GOD I swear.

Bringing tough elites is not going to cut it because 8 characters throwing Smite around are just going to melt anything that comes too close. Add to that the Princes and GUOs are formidable CC combatants that blow anything I bring out of the water in melee.

Kinda out of ideas. I was thinking of going full horde mode and feed "cheap" marines to his Smites instead of Terminators, but don't know if I have enough firepower to bring enough of his army down before he touches my lines. You might think that 20 Plaguebearers and maybe even one GUO is easy to take down in a turn of shooting but man, you would be so wrong.

What would you bring if you tailored a list against that?

Grab some black spray paint and a pot of silver - Deathwatch Wolves.
Patrol of Kill team and Bikers would be my suggestion.
Spray those Daemons with SIAmmo to wound any non vehicle on a 2+. He likes to roll saves? Make him roll more.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
So, I got my arse handed to me by my friend's Nurgle Daemons. Incidentally I have usually beaten him more often than not but his current list is hard.

Basically he has TWO identical contingents:
1 Great Unclean One
2 Deamon Princes of Nurgle
1 Herald
20 Plaguebearers as bubblewrap

He also runs 20 Furies (fast) and a small group of Nurglings.

Everything in his army has 5++/5+++ so statistically about the equivalent of Storm Shields across the board and he rolls saves like a fething GOD I swear.

Bringing tough elites is not going to cut it because 8 characters throwing Smite around are just going to melt anything that comes too close. Add to that the Princes and GUOs are formidable CC combatants that blow anything I bring out of the water in melee.

Kinda out of ideas. I was thinking of going full horde mode and feed "cheap" marines to his Smites instead of Terminators, but don't know if I have enough firepower to bring enough of his army down before he touches my lines. You might think that 20 Plaguebearers and maybe even one GUO is easy to take down in a turn of shooting but man, you would be so wrong.

What would you bring if you tailored a list against that?

Grab some black spray paint and a pot of silver - Deathwatch Wolves.
Patrol of Kill team and Bikers would be my suggestion.
Spray those Daemons with SIAmmo to wound any non vehicle on a 2+. He likes to roll saves? Make him roll more.

Well if you would have to do it purely SW style? I have almost anything available that's in the SW index outside of Wulfen.

Pure Wolves.

Nurgle are mid-ranged and slow in comparison to other Chaos armies, the more you can keep him travelling around for priority targets the less damage he can actually do.

My option would be WGBLs and Wolf Scouts to pop up in different directions taking his back and flanks and harassing his characters with Sniper rounds re-rolling to wounds, even if you can't get his back directly just forcing him to focus in different directions should minimise his ability to attack as effectively.
Deck the WGBLs out for melee to face the furies, TDA and claws would be my suggestion.

No idea about your current list or what might work better for you but I know mid-ranged armies don't like travel time.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Pure Wolves.

Nurgle are mid-ranged and slow in comparison to other Chaos armies, the more you can keep him travelling around for priority targets the less damage he can actually do.

My option would be WGBLs and Wolf Scouts to pop up in different directions taking his back and flanks and harassing his characters with Sniper rounds re-rolling to wounds, even if you can't get his back directly just forcing him to focus in different directions should minimise his ability to attack as effectively.
Deck the WGBLs out for melee to face the furies, TDA and claws would be my suggestion.

No idea about your current list or what might work better for you but I know mid-ranged armies don't like travel time.

Well my plan is to bring as much dakka I can and sit back and try to whittle him down while he slogs along the board and hope that is enough before he hits my lines. Taking a lot of dakka means there aren't too many points left to spend on anything that can take a real beating in CC...

Currently sitting at 8 Lascannons, 10 Missile launchers, 5 Assault Cannons, 2 heavy flamers, 3 plasmaguns and 48 Boltguns. Trying to incorporate rerolling of ones both hitting and wounding as much as possible.

Is that 2k points? Also what does the last look like? Are those all razorbacks?

jcd386 wrote:
Is that 2k points? Also what does the last look like? Are those all razorbacks?

There you go:

I think the grey hunters need some more oomph. Specifically combi plasma and plasma pistol for 6 guys with 5 plasma shots so you can actually put the hurt on things.

I think you have enough anti tank, but lack high rate of fire 2 damage shooting. Id think about finding room for some autocannon dreadnoughts. These will help rip up daemons without wasting too many wounds. Even on the 1w guys, if he fails the first 5+, he'll have to make 2 more to not lose the guy. Plasma are good for thee same reason.

I don't have any autocannon dreads and word is they are not in the newest SM codex so they are slowly being phased out I suppose. So not a good time to buy new ones.

The Grey Hunters are a screen to eat some Smite and if some are still left standing maybe catch a charge as well. Their "oomph" is secondary in this list. Besides I would have to figure out where to steal the points. Also I have a rep of killing my own guys with overcharged plasma even with rerolls, so I don't really like overcharging them for the very same reason. Not bad suggestions though, thanks.

 Weazel wrote:
I don't have any autocannon dreads and word is they are not in the newest SM codex so they are slowly being phased out I suppose. So not a good time to buy new ones.

The Grey Hunters are a screen to eat some Smite and if some are still left standing maybe catch a charge as well. Their "oomph" is secondary in this list. Besides I would have to figure out where to steal the points. Also I have a rep of killing my own guys with overcharged plasma even with rerolls, so I don't really like overcharging them for the very same reason. Not bad suggestions though, thanks.

Vanilla Marines couldnt take rifle dreads last edition either. It was a space wolf thing (and maybe some other chapters) So just because they arent in the new codex doesnt necessarily mean anything.

If you don't want to use the grey hunters efficiently, i would take something cheaper, so i guess blood claws? That being said i think it's a mistake to pay 250ish points on fairly useless units when you could pay 350ish for really good ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the dreads, you can use the index version instead of the codex one per GW.

jcd386 wrote:
If you don't want to use the grey hunters efficiently, i would take something cheaper, so i guess blood claws? That being said i think it's a mistake to pay 250ish points on fairly useless units when you could pay 350ish for really good ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the dreads, you can use the index version instead of the codex one per GW.

Idk, 3 combi plasma for the GH and what else? Powerweapons and AP values mean next to nothing against daemons... And what would you drop out of the list to put some meat on the GH?

Probably 2 of the missile guys in long fang squads.

 Weazel wrote:
Everything in his army has 5++/5+++ so statistically about the equivalent of Storm Shields across the board and he rolls saves like a fething GOD I swear.

It comes out to be a 55.55% chance of saving. He will save 1/3 of the wounds. Then out of the 2/3 of the wounds that get through, he will save 1/3 of those.
The forumula winds up looking like this.... (2/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed DR) = 4/9 = ~44.444 chance of failed save.
It's damn annoying. I know. It's why I play this...as my main army.


So what do I hate?
* Stuff that has lots of attacks. 30 plaguebearers don't care about a 5 lychguard. On average that kind of a unit will do this...
(1/2 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed FNP) = 4/27 Those 10 attacks the lynchguard get will kill between 1 and 2 plaguebearers.
Now, in comparison harlequins are a PITA because of the number of attacks they get. Bezerkers are just downright killy
* Lots of bodies. My army has enough smite to handle the current meta well. Someone shoves Magnus down my throat, and I light him up with 9 smites. When I face 120 conscripts I say ... "Well...crap"
* Melta into my GUO. Any weapons that do multiple damage really cause me pain, as the DR is much less effective. Having my GUO hit by a LC or ML is a big bummer.
* Fast moving armies. Just can't get to them. I played a DE player last night who was a real pain as he just sat back and shot me.

What are my tricks?
* I'll trick you into sitting on the other side of the board and shooting me. I don't care if you are killing 8 point plauge bearers. You won't kill enough to wipe them off an objective, and I'll win the game.
* I'll trick you into wasting your shots on the wrong targets. My Plague drones are there as a distraction to force you to look at them while I camp objectives to win.

How to beat me?
* Don't be afraid to advance. Who cares if you are in combat with 30 plague bearers. They are pillowfighting.
* Bring some psykers. A few deny's can really tip the balance
* Bring multi-wound weapons. Even powerfists can be a pain. 2 wound weapons are the worst, like autocannons.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Everything in his army has 5++/5+++ so statistically about the equivalent of Storm Shields across the board and he rolls saves like a fething GOD I swear.

It comes out to be a 55.55% chance of saving. He will save 1/3 of the wounds. Then out of the 2/3 of the wounds that get through, he will save 1/3 of those.
The forumula winds up looking like this.... (2/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed DR) = 4/9 = ~44.444 chance of failed save.
It's damn annoying. I know. It's why I play this...as my main army.


So what do I hate?
* Stuff that has lots of attacks. 30 plaguebearers don't care about a 5 lychguard. On average that kind of a unit will do this...
(1/2 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed FNP) = 4/27 Those 10 attacks the lynchguard get will kill between 1 and 2 plaguebearers.
Now, in comparison harlequins are a PITA because of the number of attacks they get. Bezerkers are just downright killy
* Lots of bodies. My army has enough smite to handle the current meta well. Someone shoves Magnus down my throat, and I light him up with 9 smites. When I face 120 conscripts I say ... "Well...crap"
* Melta into my GUO. Any weapons that do multiple damage really cause me pain, as the DR is much less effective. Having my GUO hit by a LC or ML is a big bummer.
* Fast moving armies. Just can't get to them. I played a DE player last night who was a real pain as he just sat back and shot me.

What are my tricks?
* I'll trick you into sitting on the other side of the board and shooting me. I don't care if you are killing 8 point plauge bearers. You won't kill enough to wipe them off an objective, and I'll win the game.
* I'll trick you into wasting your shots on the wrong targets. My Plague drones are there as a distraction to force you to look at them while I camp objectives to win.

How to beat me?
* Don't be afraid to advance. Who cares if you are in combat with 30 plague bearers. They are pillowfighting.
* Bring some psykers. A few deny's can really tip the balance
* Bring multi-wound weapons. Even powerfists can be a pain. 2 wound weapons are the worst, like autocannons.

Thanks, this was helpful. Granted I had made some of these conclusions myself already.

About psykers, bringing 2 Rune priests cost a lot of point for just two measly denies, and their spells are downright useless against the particular list I'm facing. Cover save against an army that does not shoot? Yeah. Or -1 to hit.. well very very situational and again, he does not shoot at all... Finally Jaws is only really usable against Plaguebearers, everything else has a movement value of 8" or more, so it is more or less wasted on 8 pt models. So you're basically left with 2 Smites. And to be honest when you're smiting you should go full ham. I'd rather use the points to get 5 ML/LC to do some work.

Anyone tried the TDAWGPL in a squad of Long Fangs?

I'm debating taking one either barebones as a tank, or spending the 80+ pts to run the Cyclone ML in a ML squad.

What loadouts are people running their LFs with btw? I'm liking 5x LC, or 5x ML, sacrificing a bit of hitting power for the versatility of horde killing. Then Plasma would be a good compromise between those 2 as well, especially with the re-rolls of 1's

 More Dakka wrote:
Anyone tried the TDAWGPL in a squad of Long Fangs?

I'm debating taking one either barebones as a tank, or spending the 80+ pts to run the Cyclone ML in a ML squad.

What loadouts are people running their LFs with btw? I'm liking 5x LC, or 5x ML, sacrificing a bit of hitting power for the versatility of horde killing. Then Plasma would be a good compromise between those 2 as well, especially with the re-rolls of 1's

Depends. I really like LCs if you know you're facing tanks and especially T8. Missiles are versatile but pay through the nose if you're facing the aforementioned T8. Depends how many bolters you bring whether those frag missiles are necessary. Against horde lists ML is obviously better hands down. If you're facing Primaris or Terminators Plasma Cannons can really shine especially since you have a natural reroll of 1's.

Yeah that's the problem, all of the loadouts are good but it depends what you're facing.

Any thoughts on taking a TDAWG leader?

I'd only take him if i had already taken 3 squads of 5 heavy weapons long fangs and wanted to pay a premium for more missiles.

Drop Pod Long Fangs are not worth it anymore, right? I'd be better off just taking Tempestus Scions with Plasma?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Drop Pod Long Fangs are not worth it anymore, right? I'd be better off just taking Tempestus Scions with Plasma?

IMO no way. 100pts tax for the pod and with 4-5 MM you're just going to hit twice or maybe thrice (on 4+), wound once or twice and cause maybe 4-5 damage on average per wound with the reroll. And they are going to get wiped out the next turn guaranteed. That's just too little work done for 300 pts. MAYBE if you drop 1-2 packs of terminators with them as a screen and as an even bigger threat... but that's not a cheap little detachment any more.

I might suggest dropping 5 cheap HB guys on a remote objective.. they're not threatening enough to warrant priority elimination but you are still going to have to commit some firepower to remove them. And they can still dish out 15 S5 AP-1 shots so not completely useless either.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Drop Pod Long Fangs are not worth it anymore, right? I'd be better off just taking Tempestus Scions with Plasma?

Yes, though MMs are not terrible, and for normal marines grav can do some work with 16 shots. The issue is just how much the drop pod costs and the likelyhood of doing worthwhile damage, as well as the possibility of being in 12" range of a good target vs an enemy that is screening their valuable units correctly.